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johnwesley
Samba Member
Joined: May 08, 2013
Posts: 165
Location: Mena, Ar
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 Posted: Sun Dec 22, 2013 6:52 pm Post subject: Big engine little cam |
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Looking for a engine that pulls out of corners well with good part throttle response. thought is a large motor with a small cam and carbs would help this and still make a solid motor that doesn't have to be reved out to move. I have a lot of experience with motorcycles, everything from rockets to harleys and my most fun bike is a sportster with a mild cam and stock carb. throttle response is great and it pulls out of corners hard. The crisp throttle responce allows one to run at the edge of traction and get on the gas earlier in the corner. Super fun bike not the fastest I have ever owned but the most fun. So I think a vw motor like that would be fun both on and off road. What would be needed to make this happen. Not concerned about the topend but lover the mid range. No real need to rev over 5,000 rpm
82X94mm
26mm oil pump
Engle 110 camshaft
L5 heads
single 44 weber or dual 40s ???
what your advice on this
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Glenn 
Mr. 010
Joined: December 25, 2001
Posts: 76894
Location: Sneaking up behind you
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mark tucker
Samba Member
Joined: April 08, 2009
Posts: 23937
Location: SHALIMAR ,FLORIDA
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| Posted: Sun Dec 22, 2013 7:37 pm Post subject: |
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| & 84 or 86 crank, with 5.5 or 5.6 rods. but Im not sure a 5cyl head will fit. |
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MURZI
Samba Member
Joined: August 25, 2005
Posts: 5063
Location: Madisonville, La
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| Posted: Sun Dec 22, 2013 7:56 pm Post subject: |
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A 120 cam in that combo would not sacrifice low end at all and work well. I had that combo in my buggy and it never disappointed. Torque like crazy....5500 and the fun was over.
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62 vert
2276
Tim’s welded heads
45 Dells
A1 sidewinder
Fk44 cam |
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vwracerdave
Samba Member
Joined: November 11, 2004
Posts: 15299
Location: Deep in the 405
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| Posted: Sun Dec 22, 2013 8:03 pm Post subject: |
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FK-43 with 1.4 rockers and dual IDF's
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Quokka42
Samba Member
Joined: December 02, 2010
Posts: 3117
Location: Melbourne, Australia
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| Posted: Sun Dec 22, 2013 8:18 pm Post subject: |
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Sorry, but Sambas are very anti builds like that. It would probably do what you want, though - dual 40IDFs would be OK if you fit larger venturis, probably 32mm. A single might choke it a bit, and you usually size a single the same as duals as they are only feeding one cylinder at a time.
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bugguy1967
Samba Member
Joined: January 16, 2008
Posts: 4341
Location: Los Angeles, CA 90016
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| Posted: Sun Dec 22, 2013 8:35 pm Post subject: |
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| MURZI wrote: |
| A 120 cam in that combo would not sacrifice low end at all and work well. I had that combo in my buggy and it never disappointed. Torque like crazy....5500 and the fun was over. |
A 120s powerband ends between 6000 and 6500. What was holding it back if you don't mind me asking.
I'd personally recommend a smaller Engle VZ series cam or something similar for all-out bottom end power. They're intended for smaller off-road engines to make off-idle torque.
Regardless of the nay-sayers, a big engine that's limited to 5500 rpm will live longer than an engine that has to rev higher to make its' power.
Go with the smaller 40s with bigger vents if you're going with a low duration cam. 40x35 heads with mild ports are going to be best suited.
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GodJockey
Samba Member
Joined: April 03, 2007
Posts: 240
Location: Lehigh Valley, Pa
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| Posted: Sun Dec 22, 2013 9:00 pm Post subject: |
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| your original build seems like a solid daily driver and with single springs could live a long life. My biggest concern would be not getting the most out of those L5 heads. With a low powerband, maybe even an fk65, I don't have first hand experience but always seemed like a nice street cam to me? |
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MURZI
Samba Member
Joined: August 25, 2005
Posts: 5063
Location: Madisonville, La
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| Posted: Sun Dec 22, 2013 9:20 pm Post subject: |
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| bugguy1967 wrote: |
| MURZI wrote: |
| A 120 cam in that combo would not sacrifice low end at all and work well. I had that combo in my buggy and it never disappointed. Torque like crazy....5500 and the fun was over. |
A 120s powerband ends between 6000 and 6500. What was holding it back if you don't mind me asking.
I'd personally recommend a smaller Engle VZ series cam or something similar for all-out bottom end power. They're intended for smaller off-road engines to make off-idle torque.
Regardless of the nay-sayers, a big engine that's limited to 5500 rpm will live longer than an engine that has to rev higher to make its' power.
Go with the smaller 40s with bigger vents if you're going with a low duration cam. 40x35 heads with mild ports are going to be best suited. |
I guess non ported 40x35 heads. I had 44's with 36 vents. 55/145/200. Make no mistake though....it was a beast!! In my FG buggy it would spin the crap out of my 295-50's.
Cam rpm potential also hugely depends on displacement as well. My 1835 with 110 cam will easily spin past 6k, that same 110 cam in a 2276 won't do that. My bet is a 110 cam in a 2276 won't spin past 5200 and only make 110-120 hp.
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62 vert
2276
Tim’s welded heads
45 Dells
A1 sidewinder
Fk44 cam |
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modok
Samba Member
Joined: October 30, 2009
Posts: 26776
Location: Colorado Springs
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| Posted: Sun Dec 22, 2013 9:24 pm Post subject: Re: Big engine little cam |
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| johnwesley wrote: |
single 44 weber or dual 40s ???
what your advice on this |
My advice is duals all the way bro but those gauze airfilter won't filter mud  and if you bounce em they do tend to flood
Single carb is for rough bumpy terrain and to use single airfilter.
Dual carbs will have better power and nicer running.
Your combo would be OK for a single carb so you could go either way. |
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vugbug68
Samba Member
Joined: June 25, 2006
Posts: 2696
Location: sacramento
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| Posted: Sun Dec 22, 2013 9:35 pm Post subject: |
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I had a 1956cc with mild ported 40x35 heads, a 2241 cam (pretty much a 110) I had 1.25 rockers and 44 webers. It was a great engine, I was looking for 40 webers but I couldn't pass up the price for the 44's I got, good thing too because that engine is becoming a 2109cc.
I take a lot of twisty roads and the 1956 didn't have the grunt coming out of turns, It was great on the freeway though.
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bugguy1967
Samba Member
Joined: January 16, 2008
Posts: 4341
Location: Los Angeles, CA 90016
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| Posted: Sun Dec 22, 2013 10:26 pm Post subject: |
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| MURZI wrote: |
| bugguy1967 wrote: |
| MURZI wrote: |
| A 120 cam in that combo would not sacrifice low end at all and work well. I had that combo in my buggy and it never disappointed. Torque like crazy....5500 and the fun was over. |
A 120s powerband ends between 6000 and 6500. What was holding it back if you don't mind me asking.
I'd personally recommend a smaller Engle VZ series cam or something similar for all-out bottom end power. They're intended for smaller off-road engines to make off-idle torque.
Regardless of the nay-sayers, a big engine that's limited to 5500 rpm will live longer than an engine that has to rev higher to make its' power.
Go with the smaller 40s with bigger vents if you're going with a low duration cam. 40x35 heads with mild ports are going to be best suited. |
I guess non ported 40x35 heads. I had 44's with 36 vents. 55/145/200. Make no mistake though....it was a beast!! In my FG buggy it would spin the crap out of my 295-50's.
Cam rpm potential also hugely depends on displacement as well. My 1835 with 110 cam will easily spin past 6k, that same 110 cam in a 2276 won't do that. My bet is a 110 cam in a 2276 won't spin past 5200 and only make 110-120 hp. |
Don't larger engines just need more lift to make power in the same area or am I missing something? I was under the impression that duration would do the same thing in any size engine, but more lift would be needed as ccs increased. I believe that I've asked the question before and the answer I got was that a 700cc increase won't affect the powerband noticeably, but in theory, yes, larger engines do need more lift.
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x-file
Samba Member
Joined: March 11, 2012
Posts: 50
Location: Vic. Australia
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| Posted: Mon Dec 23, 2013 12:34 am Post subject: |
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A long stroke engine needs more duration at the same rpm.
If you use the same cam and double the stroke,maximum torque will be at 1/2 the original rpm.Maximum power will hardly change,but happens at lower rpm. |
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Quokka42
Samba Member
Joined: December 02, 2010
Posts: 3117
Location: Melbourne, Australia
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| Posted: Mon Dec 23, 2013 4:48 am Post subject: |
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The cam timing essentially sets the power band of the engine, but larger cams are commonly used to feed larger engines in the VW world due to limitations in our head design and common use of individual runner carbs. More lift can help a bigger engine, but only if the heads are able to use it. His choice of L5s should be able to handle any lift he throws at it, but starts to need more spring, more frequent rebuild, etc.
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johnwesley
Samba Member
Joined: May 08, 2013
Posts: 165
Location: Mena, Ar
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| Posted: Mon Dec 23, 2013 6:14 am Post subject: |
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Seems like most think that the heads are over kill for such a small cam. So do you think with a 2276cc and w110 I'd be just as well off with a L3 type head. Also I do run off road some and enjoy some rally type riding. So seems the single carb may be best just from a maintenance and flooding stand point.
I'm fairly open to the top end. I already have the short block built with the 110 cam. I'm looking at 130 ish HP. Any more and things start getting very expensive. Just looking at L5 heads and dual carbs is over $1,600
modok: you have some awesome terrain there and under stand the rocky off road trails. I have been on most of the two track Mtn pass in Colorado. I do what is called the big dog ride every year in Colorado. It moves around the state and is normally the first full weekend in August.[/list]
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jeff68
Samba Member
Joined: November 02, 2007
Posts: 298
Location: Sarasota, Florida
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| Posted: Mon Dec 23, 2013 7:15 am Post subject: |
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| To have the low end torque you want at lower rpms I think you need high port velocity and as long an arm (stroke!) as you can get. If you're not porting your heads yourself talk to the head porter about what your trying to accomplish. DRD will give you the best advice on a combo that will do what you want. |
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PumaGTe
Samba Member
Joined: January 24, 2012
Posts: 69
Location: Holland
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| Posted: Mon Dec 23, 2013 9:04 am Post subject: |
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What I would like to know, would a standard gearbox handle the power the OP wants? So 2276cc / 130hp. At what point should one concider changing to better gears or different gearbox?
I realy love the same idea really, big but very mild low revving engine, should last forever and pull like crazy any time any where.... |
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johnwesley
Samba Member
Joined: May 08, 2013
Posts: 165
Location: Mena, Ar
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| Posted: Mon Dec 23, 2013 10:49 am Post subject: |
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What I have heard is, no it will not. I had KCR build my transmission to match the proposed motor. Tranny should be here tomorrow.
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Todd66
Samba Member
Joined: February 19, 2012
Posts: 461
Location: Utah
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| Posted: Mon Dec 23, 2013 12:14 pm Post subject: |
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| I built, and am running, the combo vwracerdave suggested. FK43, L5 heads, dual 44's. Mine is in a full body street bug with 3.88 gears, 225/50/17 tires (so they are slightly taller than stock). Pulls great right of the bottom end. Idles smooth. 25/31 mpg. I don't know about offroad as far as carb issues, but this is a very mild and driveable engine. |
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johnwesley
Samba Member
Joined: May 08, 2013
Posts: 165
Location: Mena, Ar
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| Posted: Mon Dec 23, 2013 1:03 pm Post subject: |
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Sounds good, I like the milage too. I have the stock 4.37 but I'm running 29" tires.
Here's a pic of it before I put the armor on.
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