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FloridaRunner
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Joined: April 14, 2013
Posts: 51
Location: Bradenton, Florida
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 Posted: Thu Jan 02, 2014 6:42 pm Post subject: What brake fluid should I use in my 1970 type 2? |
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| The brake fluid in my 1970 VW van is low so I went to my nearby K-Mart to get a can. They had "dot 3" and "dot 4". I checked on-line and searched it here but I was unable to see if either of these is compatible with the fluid that is already in the system (whatever that is) but couldn't find anything. I did find a "dot 5" and a "dot 5.1" but that just added to the confusion. One source suggested that I completely replace the old fluid and put in one of the newer ones. I would like to avoid that if possible. Any suggestions? |
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Joey
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Joined: August 12, 2005
Posts: 5366
Location: Nova Scotia - Canada
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| Posted: Thu Jan 02, 2014 6:55 pm Post subject: |
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Dot 3 or 4 should be good to use. I wouldn't think you would have dot 5 (silicone) brake fluid in your system.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brake_fluid
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Joey
‘60 Kombi - '74 Bus - '79 Panel - '65 Beetle |
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kreemoweet
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Joined: March 13, 2008
Posts: 3897
Location: Seattle, WA
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| Posted: Thu Jan 02, 2014 7:31 pm Post subject: |
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If your brake fluid hasn't been changed in the last 2 years, you need
to replace all of it. Dot 3, 4, and 5.1 are all glycol-based fluids and
can be used. Some of the higher-end stuff and so-called "synthetic"
brake fluids may be overkill.
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white74westy
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Joined: May 02, 2011
Posts: 777
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| Posted: Thu Jan 02, 2014 7:47 pm Post subject: Re: What brake fluid should I use in my 1970 type 2? |
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| FloridaRunner wrote: |
| The brake fluid in my 1970 VW van is low so I went to my nearby K-Mart to get a can. They had "dot 3" and "dot 4". I checked on-line and searched it here but I was unable to see if either of these is compatible with the fluid that is already in the system (whatever that is) but couldn't find anything. I did find a "dot 5" and a "dot 5.1" but that just added to the confusion. One source suggested that I completely replace the old fluid and put in one of the newer ones. I would like to avoid that if possible. Any suggestions? |
Hey there! I literally just finished up changing the fluid in my westy. If you have an O'Reilly's near you, stop by and ask them for some Pentosin Super DOT 4. It'll do everything you need. Best of luck. 
http://www.oreillyauto.com/site/c/detail/PNT0/1204...;ppt=C0069 |
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fon
Samba Member
Joined: July 23, 2010
Posts: 97
Location: San Juan, Puerto Rico
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| Posted: Fri Jan 03, 2014 4:43 pm Post subject: Re: What brake fluid should I use in my 1970 type 2? |
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Hi,
Don't mean to hijack the tread,
I have a 1970 Westy that I did a complete brake job about 2 year ago.
New lines, houses,MC cylinder ect ..
I used Dot 5 silicone brake fluid. No problems so far...
Should I be concern? |
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Ian
Samba Moderator
Joined: August 28, 2002
Posts: 4930
Location: 713
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| Posted: Fri Jan 03, 2014 5:36 pm Post subject: |
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I always use the cheapest brake fluid available, got something on sale?? Even better.
I figure that's what they had available in 1970, so that's what would work best.
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All your Buses are belong to us.
Love and good roads!
IN LOVING MEMORY OF ROB CRESS 1968-2012 |
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babysnakes
Samba Member
Joined: August 19, 2008
Posts: 7106
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| Posted: Fri Jan 03, 2014 5:39 pm Post subject: |
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| My local FLAPS has ONLY 3 brands of synthetic fluid. If this is the case, change all the fluid. It may take some time, but you don't want to mix fluids. |
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Danwvw
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Joined: July 31, 2012
Posts: 8892
Location: Oregon Coast
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| Posted: Fri Jan 03, 2014 5:49 pm Post subject: |
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The German cars had a natural rubber and the american brake fluids had something in it that would mess things up if say 2 years later the fluids were switched form what ever VW used to like Prestone or something. I have ran into this myself with leaking cylinders "Happens every time" or sometimes it causes the master cylinder to go out. Even happened on my Porsche Water cooled. But I understand the synthetics will work. What I have found to work is the Castrol Brand of brake fluid. Here on the Castrol Web site: it states: "Ideally suited for Audi, BMW, Jaguar, Mercedes-Benz, Porsche, Saab, Volkswagen, Volvo, Honda, Acura and many other brake systems."
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FloridaRunner
Samba Member
Joined: April 14, 2013
Posts: 51
Location: Bradenton, Florida
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| Posted: Mon Jun 16, 2014 12:38 pm Post subject: Break shoes failed |
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| I don't drive this camper van often but once in a while I take it out to exercise it. After I topped off the break fluid I took it out a few times but the last time I had a major failure. The right front wheel made a lot of noise and the breaks pulsed wildly when I tried to stop. I managed to limp back home using the hand break but didn't have time to take the wheel off until today. The lining on both break shoes had come off and both linings were broken in two. There was no damage to the drum, I am guessing that the wheel cylinder started leaking and saturated the break shoes so they became weak, came off, and broke. It has been a while since this happened so I'm guessing that any break fluid in that area evaporated. The reservoir is dry. I did notice some break fluid on the garage floor after I limped back. Is this a good diagnosis? If so should I replace both the shoes and the wheel cylinder? |
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Wildthings
Samba Member
Joined: March 13, 2005
Posts: 50332
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| Posted: Mon Jun 16, 2014 3:38 pm Post subject: Re: Break shoes failed |
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| FloridaRunner wrote: |
| I don't drive this camper van often but once in a while I take it out to exercise it. After I topped off the break fluid I took it out a few times but the last time I had a major failure. The right front wheel made a lot of noise and the breaks pulsed wildly when I tried to stop. I managed to limp back home using the hand break but didn't have time to take the wheel off until today. The lining on both break shoes had come off and both linings were broken in two. There was no damage to the drum, I am guessing that the wheel cylinder started leaking and saturated the break shoes so they became weak, came off, and broke. It has been a while since this happened so I'm guessing that any break fluid in that area evaporated. The reservoir is dry. I did notice some break fluid on the garage floor after I limped back. Is this a good diagnosis? If so should I replace both the shoes and the wheel cylinder? |
My guess would be that you have cheap linings, that third world parts thing strikes again. Brake fluid shouldn't hurt the adhesive on the lining and will not evaporate readily. |
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kreemoweet
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Joined: March 13, 2008
Posts: 3897
Location: Seattle, WA
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| Posted: Mon Jun 16, 2014 7:24 pm Post subject: |
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Let me see if I have this right: you're asking us if you should replace your wheel cylinder that leaked all over and
destroyed your brake shoes? I know it's a tough call, but I gotta go with "yes!".
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FloridaRunner
Samba Member
Joined: April 14, 2013
Posts: 51
Location: Bradenton, Florida
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| Posted: Sat Jun 21, 2014 7:38 am Post subject: new break shoes damaged in shippment - are they ok to use? |
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I received my new break shoes but they weren't packed well and one set damaged the other. See photos.
Can I use these or should I ask for a replacement or discount? |
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FloridaRunner
Samba Member
Joined: April 14, 2013
Posts: 51
Location: Bradenton, Florida
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| Posted: Wed Oct 29, 2014 12:30 pm Post subject: fuel problem? |
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| The linings of my brake shoes came off when the top wheel cylinder leaked and I procrastinated for several months (because it is too hot in Florida in the summer to work in the garage) but finally finished installing the new shoes today. I tried to go out for a test but the engine wouldn't start. I finally traced it down to a fuel problem. Fuel is getting to the fuel pump but only a little to the filter between the pump and the carburetor. I added a couple of gallons of gas to the tank but that didn't help. I used some of that quick start spray and it ran for a few seconds and died. I did that at least five times. Could the fuel pump have gone bad just sitting there? I installed a reconditioned carb within the past year too so I don't think that is the problem although it does have one of those electric gadgets that prevents it from backfiring when the engine is turned off. Any help would be appreciated. |
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raygreenwood
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Joined: November 24, 2008
Posts: 21507
Location: Oklahoma City
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| Posted: Wed Oct 29, 2014 1:04 pm Post subject: |
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| Danwvw wrote: |
The German cars had a natural rubber and the american brake fluids had something in it that would mess things up if say 2 years later the fluids were switched form what ever VW used to like Prestone or something. I have ran into this myself with leaking cylinders "Happens every time" or sometimes it causes the master cylinder to go out. Even happened on my Porsche Water cooled. But I understand the synthetics will work. What I have found to work is the Castrol Brand of brake fluid. Here on the Castrol Web site: it states: "Ideally suited for Audi, BMW, Jaguar, Mercedes-Benz, Porsche, Saab, Volkswagen, Volvo, Honda, Acura and many other brake systems."
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I know this post is really old...but this is incorrect. Virtually no one in our lifetime (unless you are a really old timer and date to WW2 and before)....uses natural rubbers of any kind for brake cylinder parts.
At worst, Variants of Buna-N (synthetic) have been used but have a short life.
ALL brake cylinders in recent history use EPDM (well over 30 years) rubber.
Some fluid inlet grommets in the 70's were made of Buna-N and had no dangerous failure issues (leaked fluid only) and were changed to EPR rubber.
Since at least the late 60's EPDM's and various similar all synthetic rubber have been used for brake cylinder cups and parts.
Yes, sometimes changing fluid can affect cups that already have some age on them but from what I have gathered over the years from articles written by others it is usually due to either a change in slickness or friction from one fluid to another on cups that are worn or less flexible ...or a change n water absorption of one fluid to another.
Virtually any DOT 3 or 4 should work in our systems. DOT 5.1 can work in a pinch...but these are DOT 4 fluids that have been modified by lowering the viscosity and shear characteristics to operate in the very tight spaces within an anti-lock brake system.
If your cylinder has been honed once or twice and its tolerances are on the high side...it may cause leakage.
Also....and not to get into this here....there are already many threads on this. Just using what is cheap because its adequate does not pay ....especially if you drive your vehicle hard or you are not religious about changing fluid.
There are significant differences in fluid performance and many comparison studies out there. About the most basic fluid I would buy is still Castrol LMA.
Anything DOT 3/4 works in pinch....but there are large differences in moisture absorption (life span) and wet and dry boiling point. If you drive a heavy bus over the hills...get the best you can afford within reason. Ray |
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FreeBus
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Joined: October 27, 2014
Posts: 14
Location: Scott AFB, IL
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| Posted: Wed Oct 29, 2014 2:41 pm Post subject: |
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DOT3 is brake fluid.. It is called Clutch Fluid sometimes with motorcycle applications.
DOT4 absorbs less water than DOT3, and has a higher boiling point, and costs a little more.
DOT5 is a silicone based fluid and shouldn't be used unless it is required by the system using it.. Aside from the fluid itself costing more, the system has to be prepared for its use.
TLDR: Use DOT3 or DOT4, no problem. Use DOT5 if required.
I use DOT4 normally, unless the "Standard" is only DOT3 and I NEED it.. they are interchangeable and mixable.
-FB |
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merlinj79
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Joined: December 05, 2008
Posts: 379
Location: SOCAL
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| Posted: Thu Oct 30, 2014 10:07 am Post subject: |
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I've used castrol DOT 3 for years with no issues, even though my bus mostly sits nowdays.
I don't need the higher temp performance of DOT 4 since I don't race my bus, but the DOT 3 absorbs more water so it will better protect the system from corrosion.
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Rick
"Pumpkin II"
Stock 2L FI '77 Westy
CA Smog Stuff |
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raygreenwood
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Joined: November 24, 2008
Posts: 21507
Location: Oklahoma City
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| Posted: Thu Oct 30, 2014 3:13 pm Post subject: |
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| merlinj79 wrote: |
I've used castrol DOT 3 for years with no issues, even though my bus mostly sits nowdays.
I don't need the higher temp performance of DOT 4 since I don't race my bus, but the DOT 3 absorbs more water so it will better protect the system from corrosion. |
Mmmmm...no. You don't have to be racing at all to get brake fade on a street car.
I've had brake fade from fluid issues in a vehicle half the weight of a bus in hot weather. Also....from the moment you open and install any brake fluid its absorbing moisture.
European car did a test series about 10 years ago. Almost all brake fluids drop wet boiling point of well over 100F in less than a month in the car. Depending on how good your seals are and where your climate is....that figure can increase rapidly.
Also no particular "type" or class has better moisture retention. Better quality fluids in all classes generally do. DOT 4 has nothing to do with racing...although there are racing variations of DOT 4.
Im not suggesting you use those particular synthetics on your street vehicle.....at an average of $60 a liter.
But there are great benefits that have been proven to using a better than convenience store variety of DOT 3 or 4.
The differences in the DOT classes outside of 5 and 5.1 are primarily defined by wet and dry boiling point and viscosity (basic performance levels)
Dry boiling point Wet boiling point Viscosity limit Primary constituent
DOT 2 190 °C (374 °F) 140 °C (284 °F) ? Castor oil/alcohol
DOT 3 205 °C (401 °F) 140 °C (284 °F) 1500 mm2/s Glycol Ether
DOT 4 230 °C (446 °F) 155 °C (311 °F) 1800 mm2/s Glycol Ether/Borate Ester
DOT 5 260 °C (500 °F) 180 °C (356 °F) 900 mm2/s Silicone
DOT 5.1 260 °C (500 °F) 180 °C (356 °F) 900 mm2/s Glycol Ether/Borate Ester
Ray |
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merlinj79
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Joined: December 05, 2008
Posts: 379
Location: SOCAL
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| Posted: Thu Oct 30, 2014 4:32 pm Post subject: |
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| raygreenwood wrote: |
Mmmmm...no. You don't have to be racing at all to get brake fade on a street car.
I've had brake fade from fluid issues in a vehicle half the weight of a bus in hot weather. Also....from the moment you open and install any brake fluid its absorbing moisture. |
I've never had any issues due to brake fluid...and I've owned and maintained a lot of cars: ACVWs, porsches, toyotas, acuras, land rovers towing heavy loads in the mountains.
I do replace fluid every two years religiously, and use quality fluid, not FLAPS generic brand. I don't think we need to over-think brake fluid...use a name brand, the proper type for your car, and change it when you're supposed to.
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Rick
"Pumpkin II"
Stock 2L FI '77 Westy
CA Smog Stuff |
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raygreenwood
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Joined: November 24, 2008
Posts: 21507
Location: Oklahoma City
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| Posted: Fri Oct 31, 2014 9:21 am Post subject: |
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| merlinj79 wrote: |
| raygreenwood wrote: |
Mmmmm...no. You don't have to be racing at all to get brake fade on a street car.
I've had brake fade from fluid issues in a vehicle half the weight of a bus in hot weather. Also....from the moment you open and install any brake fluid its absorbing moisture. |
I've never had any issues due to brake fluid...and I've owned and maintained a lot of cars: ACVWs, porsches, toyotas, acuras, land rovers towing heavy loads in the mountains.
I do replace fluid every two years religiously, and use quality fluid, not FLAPS generic brand. I don't think we need to over-think brake fluid...use a name brand, the proper type for your car, and change it when you're supposed to. |
Not over thinking at all.
In fact....most people "under think" fluids like brake fluids, oils and gear oils.
Its part of the reason why we have has so many cam/lifter failures over the past few years as oil formulas changed...and most owners never thought about that.
Brake fluids...and brake component formulas have changed as well....most assuredly pad compounds have changed.
The newer pad materials stand up to heat better...but shed it slower...and transfer more heat to calipers, pistons and fluid ....causing brake fade more often in systems that never really had that problem and cooking the fluids faster.
Thats fact....and its been well studied and documented....no over or under thinking necessary.
Its a factual and well proven issue. Lots of testing out there. Better fluids work better...and has little to do with whether you are racing or not.
That being said....using Castrol....a damn fine upper middle of the line brand....and changing fluid religiously keeps you far ahead of the curve.
The main excellent key that backs up your actions is that from studies done a few yers back (and Castrol was one of main backers of the first test I read)..... at the 2 year mark in older cars with open ventilation systems...which yours has.....the wet boiling point is typically about 50% of what it was when it came out of the bottle.
And.....usually just about at the level where corrosion of metal components starts to happen especially to aluminum and brass.
So changing your fluid at 2 years is the very best part of what you are doing. Ray |
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merlinj79
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| Posted: Fri Oct 31, 2014 10:01 am Post subject: |
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Engine oil is definitely a more complex issue than brake fluid...engine oil should be over-thought, at least for old cars. For modern cars you can just use mobil-1 and not worry about it, if you don't have the time or inclination to do the research.
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Rick
"Pumpkin II"
Stock 2L FI '77 Westy
CA Smog Stuff |
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