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type1guy
Samba Member
Joined: October 14, 2012
Posts: 299
Location: Oakwood, IL
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 Posted: Thu Jan 02, 2014 7:18 pm Post subject: Reversed beam? |
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I saw a rat rod beetle for sale on eBay today that had a reversed beam. How safe can that be? Anyone done this before?
http://www.ebay.com/itm/Volkswagen-Beetle-Classic-...ars_Trucks
Mike
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1972 SB Marina Blue, "Mr. Beetle" (sold)
1972 Standard Baja, "Jack the Dripper" |
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1965VWBUGGER
Samba Member
Joined: March 10, 2013
Posts: 212
Location: Sedro Woolley, Washington
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| Posted: Thu Jan 02, 2014 7:29 pm Post subject: |
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YIKES!!!! 
Looks like a Death Trap to me...
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1965 VW Beetle Project "SIX5BUG" now Zaney"s Rally Racer
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volksworld
Samba Member
Joined: November 26, 2011
Posts: 2529
Location: formerly NY currently NC
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| Posted: Thu Jan 02, 2014 8:34 pm Post subject: |
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| when you bend it you can put it back in backwards and hit another curb till its "straight"...I cant imagine what the caster must be |
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jhoefer
Samba Member
Joined: May 19, 2011
Posts: 987
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| Posted: Thu Jan 02, 2014 8:37 pm Post subject: |
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Two problems with that. The trailing arms facing forward can cause poor geometry for ride comfort. Impacts will tend to direct their force directly into the arms and chassis instead of making them rotate. Makes for a harsh ride.
Worse, having the spindles mounted backwards has probably inverted the mechanical trail of the wheels. Mechanical trail is the distance that the center of the tire's contact patch is behind where the rotation (steering) axis of the spindle intersects the ground. It's what makes your wheels want to naturally return to center when moving forward. Think of how a shopping cart's wheels rotate to face the right direction regardless of where they start, same principle. If it's been inverted, the wheels are going to want naturalky go full left or right lock when moving forward, so horribly dangerous. Now it could be possible to keep some proper mechanical trail even with the spindles flipped, but it's impossible to determine from the pictures. I wouldn't touch it without thorough proof that this was correct. |
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Joey
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Joined: August 12, 2005
Posts: 5366
Location: Nova Scotia - Canada
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| Posted: Fri Jan 03, 2014 7:03 am Post subject: |
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| jhoefer wrote: |
| Worse, having the spindles mounted backwards has probably inverted the mechanical trail of the wheels. Mechanical trail is the distance that the center of the tire's contact patch is behind where the rotation (steering) axis of the spindle intersects the ground. It's what makes your wheels want to naturally return to center when moving forward. Think of how a shopping cart's wheels rotate to face the right direction regardless of where they start, same principle. If it's been inverted, the wheels are going to want naturalky go full left or right lock when moving forward, so horribly dangerous. Now it could be possible to keep some proper mechanical trail even with the spindles flipped, but it's impossible to determine from the pictures. I wouldn't touch it without thorough proof that this was correct. |
You're talking about caster (caster wheels are on the front of a shopping cart). Yes, the whole front end geometry is screw with the beam in backwards.
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Joey
‘60 Kombi - '74 Bus - '79 Panel - '65 Beetle |
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jhoefer
Samba Member
Joined: May 19, 2011
Posts: 987
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| Posted: Fri Jan 03, 2014 1:50 pm Post subject: |
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| Joey wrote: |
| jhoefer wrote: |
| Worse, having the spindles mounted backwards has probably inverted the mechanical trail of the wheels. Mechanical trail is the distance that the center of the tire's contact patch is behind where the rotation (steering) axis of the spindle intersects the ground. It's what makes your wheels want to naturally return to center when moving forward. Think of how a shopping cart's wheels rotate to face the right direction regardless of where they start, same principle. If it's been inverted, the wheels are going to want naturalky go full left or right lock when moving forward, so horribly dangerous. Now it could be possible to keep some proper mechanical trail even with the spindles flipped, but it's impossible to determine from the pictures. I wouldn't touch it without thorough proof that this was correct. |
You're talking about caster (caster wheels are on the front of a shopping cart). Yes, the whole front end geometry is screw with the beam in backwards. |
Caster is the angle that the steering axis leans in the fore/aft direction of the car from vertical. Mechanical trail is the distance from where the steering axis intersects the ground to the center of the tire's contact patch. A shopping cart's front wheels have 0 degrees caster but still have mechanical trail. |
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Lidpainter
Samba Anti-Hero
Joined: January 21, 2004
Posts: 2045
Location: 41.77 | -83.56
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| Posted: Fri Jan 03, 2014 1:58 pm Post subject: |
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| jhoefer wrote: |
| Joey wrote: |
| jhoefer wrote: |
| Worse, having the spindles mounted backwards has probably inverted the mechanical trail of the wheels. Mechanical trail is the distance that the center of the tire's contact patch is behind where the rotation (steering) axis of the spindle intersects the ground. It's what makes your wheels want to naturally return to center when moving forward. Think of how a shopping cart's wheels rotate to face the right direction regardless of where they start, same principle. If it's been inverted, the wheels are going to want naturalky go full left or right lock when moving forward, so horribly dangerous. Now it could be possible to keep some proper mechanical trail even with the spindles flipped, but it's impossible to determine from the pictures. I wouldn't touch it without thorough proof that this was correct. |
You're talking about caster (caster wheels are on the front of a shopping cart). Yes, the whole front end geometry is screw with the beam in backwards. |
Caster is the angle that the steering axis leans in the fore/aft direction of the car from vertical. Mechanical trail is the distance from where the steering axis intersects the ground to the center of the tire's contact patch. A shopping cart's front wheels have 0 degrees caster but still have mechanical trail. |
True but unlike this car, I would not be embarrassed if I was seen in public with a shopping cart.
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demon1018
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Joined: September 12, 2009
Posts: 930
Location: crystal river, fl
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VOLKSWAGNUT
Fastest VW Belt Changer
Joined: October 14, 2007
Posts: 11056
Location: Flippin' a Belt........ .... Off-n-On ... NC USA
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| Posted: Fri Jan 03, 2014 7:41 pm Post subject: |
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While a reversed beam (flipped beam)is not the most common way to extend the front wheels it does work.
Many Volksrod builders go that route. Samba member rgdedge's Volksrod comes to mind..
Ill see if he will add his input as he drives the crap out of his....like most of us Volksrod builders do.
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Its your vehicle- stop askin' for approval-do what YOU like for cryin' out loud
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Usually and often edited
Last edited by VOLKSWAGNUT on Sat Jan 04, 2014 7:45 am; edited 1 time in total |
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rgdedge
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Joined: October 17, 2006
Posts: 862
Location: Seymour, TN
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| Posted: Fri Jan 03, 2014 8:17 pm Post subject: |
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Yes it will work but more to it than just reversing the beam. I have put 30.000 miles on mine. Drives just like a stock bug other than the turn radius. Drive it to all the shows/races, 12 hours to Daytona running the Interstate at 70 mph+ there and back. Been on the Tail of the Dragon(US 129) and won photo of the week. Some people say it's not supposed to be like that while their bug is lowered with crazy camber and a 6-8 inch narrowed beam.
Tim
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VOLKSWAGNUT
Fastest VW Belt Changer
Joined: October 14, 2007
Posts: 11056
Location: Flippin' a Belt........ .... Off-n-On ... NC USA
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| Posted: Fri Jan 03, 2014 8:44 pm Post subject: |
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^ Yeah!.... 
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aka Ken {o\!/o}
Its your vehicle- stop askin' for approval-do what YOU like for cryin' out loud
Better to roll em' how you want and wear em' out-than lettin' em' rot out
Its about the going not the showing
Rebuilt to drive not decorate
WANTED: Local Eatin' Joints, Triple D for TheSamba contributions here http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=570510
Search "VOLKSWAGNUT" on YouTube since you cant watch a "certain" BELT change video round here
Usually and often edited |
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hitest
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Joined: September 30, 2008
Posts: 10296
Location: Prime Meridian, ID
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| Posted: Fri Jan 03, 2014 11:39 pm Post subject: |
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Looks to me like there is enough caster shimming going on with that beam that it probably drives smoother than stock. Looks like a job for a 16 inch steering wheel or a driver with Popeye arms though.
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| EverettB wrote: |
I wonder what the nut looks like.
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'62 L390 151, '62 L469 117, '63 L380 113, '64 L87 311, '65 L512 265, '65 L31 SO-42, '66 L360 251, '68 L30k 141, '71 L12 113, '74 ORG 181
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casper deuce
Samba Member
Joined: August 09, 2013
Posts: 10
Location: Fresno, Ca.
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| Posted: Sat Mar 29, 2014 4:27 pm Post subject: |
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| As a newbie to the Volkswagen world, I am quite familier with vintage hot rods. People have been doing this trick for almost 70 years without any problems at all. Look at the front axle with reversed spindles on 90% of the T buckets on the road. I'm sure it's not "proper" but it sure works fine. |
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TC/TeamEvil
Samba Member
Joined: February 16, 2004
Posts: 1769
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| Posted: Thu Apr 10, 2014 2:21 pm Post subject: |
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| The MGA and MGB both have forward facing spindle arms and rack and pinion. Steering rack might be a good solution on the VW. |
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BL3Manx
Samba Member
Joined: August 29, 2006
Posts: 6767
Location: Northern California
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| Posted: Fri Apr 11, 2014 5:23 pm Post subject: |
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If he had swapped the right and left spindle so the axle was still behind the spindle steering axis and tilted the beam back far enough so the wheels had enough caster/trail, it should have worked OK. If he did the right left swap, he would have had to cut off and relocate the steering arms to work.
Leading arm suspensions work fine, even off road if they're properly designed, not just trailing arms turned backwards. This is called an Earls Fork, BMW and others used them for years.
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sixfootdan
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Joined: February 13, 2002
Posts: 4848
Location: \Lo*ca"tion\, n. 1. The act or process of locating.
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| Posted: Fri Apr 11, 2014 7:05 pm Post subject: |
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| jhoefer wrote: |
| Joey wrote: |
| jhoefer wrote: |
| Worse, having the spindles mounted backwards has probably inverted the mechanical trail of the wheels. Mechanical trail is the distance that the center of the tire's contact patch is behind where the rotation (steering) axis of the spindle intersects the ground. It's what makes your wheels want to naturally return to center when moving forward. Think of how a shopping cart's wheels rotate to face the right direction regardless of where they start, same principle. If it's been inverted, the wheels are going to want naturalky go full left or right lock when moving forward, so horribly dangerous. Now it could be possible to keep some proper mechanical trail even with the spindles flipped, but it's impossible to determine from the pictures. I wouldn't touch it without thorough proof that this was correct. |
You're talking about caster (caster wheels are on the front of a shopping cart). Yes, the whole front end geometry is screw with the beam in backwards. |
Caster is the angle that the steering axis leans in the fore/aft direction of the car from vertical. Mechanical trail is the distance from where the steering axis intersects the ground to the center of the tire's contact patch. A shopping cart's front wheels have 0 degrees caster but still have mechanical trail. |
I believe it's called the akerman angle but im not positive?
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punkabillyvw
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Joined: November 12, 2013
Posts: 86
Location: Waco Tx
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| Posted: Fri Apr 11, 2014 7:10 pm Post subject: |
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| That would be called SAI just got done covering that in my steering and suspension class this week |
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BL3Manx
Samba Member
Joined: August 29, 2006
Posts: 6767
Location: Northern California
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| Posted: Sat Apr 12, 2014 6:57 am Post subject: |
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| Caster is the steering axis inclination (SAI) in the longitudinal plane. There is also steering axis inclination in the lateral plane which affects the scrub radius. |
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HeidelbergJohn4.0
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Joined: March 01, 2004
Posts: 1199
Location: Havre de Grace, MD
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| Posted: Sat Apr 12, 2014 3:22 pm Post subject: |
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With proper alignment, it works. Simply bolting the entire beam and steering in backwards, not so much.
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sandfreaks
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Joined: December 15, 2008
Posts: 86
Location: OLYMPIA
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| Posted: Mon Apr 28, 2014 11:41 am Post subject: |
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Following Tims example I have been building a Flipped "Trailing arm" beam. So far other than some minor clearance issues it is working great. Tim took it a step further and relocated his steering to be back behind the beam again.
He didnt just flip the beam. Pretty slick setup. The problem with just flipping the beam is the Ackerman angle is all screwed up creating bad bump steer.
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