Black Fastback Build Thread

Clatter · Posted: Sun Aug 02, 2015 8:36 am Post subject:

Bob, thank you very much for helping.
That rear kick was driving me nuts...
And having a second set of eyes on this thing, someone who knows these cars and has done a few, really, really helps with some perspective.

WRT the front clip, I feel like it is coming along, and there might be some hope.
Mom let me play cars yesterday, but only brieflly.
However, some things started making sense; The key idea being that the front clip is not yet welded into place.
After taking off the front fenders, and gapping the rear of the hood to the cowl, it is becoming apparent that the whole front clip is crooked.

Luckily, after un-sheetmetal-screwing the clip from the shell, there is enough adjustment in the front beam clamp/front apron mounting bolts that i can get the hood gaps right.
The rear of the clip, where it meets the body, is a bit odd (has a gap), but might likely be able to be worked a bit to fit.
(and, it doesn't really show, hidden under seam-seal, etc.)

Thinking about it some more - picture the side-swipe damage from earlier....
The whole driver's side of the car was clipped, and the car was most likely moving forward when this occured.
What is happening is the result of the A-pillar, in the region of the bottom door hinge, still being a little too far 'back' towards the rear of the car.
Some part of the pillar, near the top hinge, however, is too far forward, because they didn't get it perfect.
As the driver's side top A-pillar is forward, when i run the clip up tight against it, the gap with the hood gets closed up on that left side!
Exclamation

Said another way - if part of the A-pillar is too far forward,
This gap gets closed up when the clip attaches to it...

Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.

At this point, because the clip is still not welded down,
I'm *thnking* that it's time for some Porta-powering *some* of the A-pillar - to move it forward a bit.
If you look at the driver's door fit, the gap between the front of the door and the fender is too big.

This also indicates that we might push the A-pillar forward a bit.
Not shown in the pic is how the rear of the door is gapped too tight.

So, some of this pillar is going to get moved, and some of the clip is going to get clearanced for where it moved too much.

It all is starting to make sense.
Likely, this was not as bad until when i removed the front clip,
Then the tension was released, and the pillar 'sprung' a bit back.
Metal does seem to have a lot of memory...

Going to try and track down a Porta-Power now.
Picturing throwing some 2x4s vertically along the rear of the door opening/B-pillar, to back it up to push some of that A-pillar forward...

If that makes any sense...
Bob, you get what I'm saying, right? Confused

Does this seem to jive with what we are seeing here?
Ever push an A-pillar forward before?
Hoping against hope that the A-pillar is not stronger than the B-pillar, and the B just moves back, instead of the A moving forward.
Going to be some creative bracing/woodwork to make this happen, looks like... Wink

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Bus Motor Build

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Nate M. · Posted: Sun Aug 02, 2015 8:46 am Post subject:

It's really beginning to come together. Nice work!!

Popcorn

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Regards,

Nate M.

Squarsche build
Heavy Metal Affliction feature

For heaven's sake, put a type4 and a Porsche 5-speed in there. . . It's the right thing to do!!

Bobnotch · Posted: Sun Aug 02, 2015 3:18 pm Post subject:

eyetzr · Posted: Mon Aug 03, 2015 7:17 am Post subject:

Clatter check the blue Bentley it shows all the measurements for the post positions. I would measure the posts & gaps before pushing the areas. You might have to reinforce the rest of the car.
I am doing this now at work on an early MG, it is a bit of a mess, but starting to look straight now. I have a wood frame to contend with.
Keep up the great work.
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I think he meant "rare", as in "not well-done"

Clatter · Posted: Sun Aug 09, 2015 8:35 pm Post subject:

Well, a few on/off days go by..

Got the rear apron finished up.

Started by using sheet-metal screws to get the sides snugged down.

Was able to plug-weld the glued-down seam area without starting a fire.
It did make for some 'blob rejection' as the metal didn't want to flow where the glue was,
But i nutted it.

Can't tell you the frustration involved with this scene here.
Talk about your ass hanging in the breeze!
When the car sticks out the back of the atrium here, there's really no way to keep the shielding gas where it's supposed be.
Damn wind blows it away, so i get closer, trying to get a bead, and the wire sticks to the tip.
Then the welder builds a bird's nest inside, and i waste a bunch of wire,
Then i waste a bunch of gas because i forget to turn off the gas during the re-wiring process.
Got so pissed at a couple of points there.....

After struggling to get the crappy HF Armenian spot-welder working again, Rolling Eyes

Things finally get stuck together..

Weld, grind, weld, grind...

And some epoxy - Nutted...! Cool

This was actually a LOT more work than i thought it was going to be.

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squaretobehip · Posted: Sun Aug 09, 2015 9:46 pm Post subject:

There's just somethin' about a nice apron...mmmhmmm.

Cool

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Yabbadubbadoo · Samba Member Joined: May 21, 2012 Posts: 914

A nice little tig welder might be slow but I actually feel like I can weld sheet metal with a TIG. Damn I hate MIG on the thin stuff sometimes. When things aren't going right it REALLY doesn't go right. I admire your persistence swapping out that many panels. A mint fresh apron is something that only a new pressing can emulate. Top work man.
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Sydney, Australia.
66 Type 3 Fastback

Clatter · Posted: Mon Aug 10, 2015 8:49 am Post subject:

Well, that whole 'apron' thing is the good part, unfortunately...

Have to go and actually do something that works, after basically banging my head against the wall and accomplishing nothing... Brick wall

Starts here - the clip is centered over the beam clamps.
The actual beam i'm going to use is in place here, vs. my little mock-up sections.
Clip centered on beam/frame-head...

Then we have this..
Brick wall

This opens up at the front of the driver's a-pillar...

Trying to find the foggiest clue as to where this misalignment is, or what is bent...
This shows something, that I'm not sure is real, or not.
See the ribs on the rear deck/cargo area way back there?
The center one has a small circle stamped into it.
Sighting down the center peak of the frunk, it looks like it's crooked, huh?

Could just be the camera angle, but, it does correspond with my misaligment issue...
How to fix this, i have no foggy idea...
Brick wall

Nick came by, and helped me rig things up to measure.
Helps to have a second set of eyes..
This guy being a master carpenter, who restores old houses and such,
He has some great skills for figuring out what/where with things that don't fit.
First, we leveled the car on the stands,
Then we drew a line lengthwise down the center of the car.
Here we are using this center line with a laser pointer to determine if the frunk/hood is indeed crooked to the rest of the shell.

But, that really wasn't that accurate with that litle round laser thing...
Brick wall

Here,
a plumb-bob was rigged on the same centerline, and leveled car, to determine if the tunnel is indeed centered relative to the body.
Which, it seems to be...

So,
AFAICT, the whole cowl of the car is pushed to the right...
Today, i hope to go and do a bunch more measurements diagonally in the dash area and cowl.
Problem is, that there really aren't any reference points to pull a measurement off of up there,
Because i cut all the corners away.
That, and it really takes a second set of hands to get good measurements.
Brick wall

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Bobnotch · Posted: Mon Aug 10, 2015 2:10 pm Post subject:

racoguy · Posted: Mon Aug 10, 2015 5:41 pm Post subject:

Here's where I would start, mount the hood on the car and measure from the windshield corners to the ridge of the hood so that it is exactly in the middle of the cowl (assuming the ridge is exactly center in the hood) Make a rounded cardboard template of the windshield corner with a line on it which you can then flip over to use on the other side.
Make sure that the gap between the hood and cowl is the same on both sides! as any variance here make a big difference at the other end.

Once you have the hood centered look at the front clip and see how far out it is, then take measurements from the front most fuel tank mounting holes to the front inner corners (where the hood hinges attach) so see how far out the clip is.

Me personally think the front clip itself is not square as the body seems to sit on the pan nice and the front bulkhead also confirms that from what I can see.
Check door openings side to side, measure lower hinge diagonal to upper corner on B post, also lower B post to upper A post if you catch me? then compare to the other side of the body, this will tall you if the pillars are where they are supposed to be.

A trammel bar is really handy here and very easy to make, just google it.
Another thing to check is a diagonal or X measurement inside the car from left to right, basically from heater chanel up to top corner of windshield etc
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Yabbadubbadoo · Samba Member Joined: May 21, 2012 Posts: 914

Im with racoguy. Mount up the hood with some hood seal rubber to get spacing right and even the fenders with a few bolts and some fender beading to get the spacing right just to know your hood is sitting where it should be. Adjust hood gaps around the hood and fenders - then do your plumb measurements from the fender lip to the hub centre and cross reference that with the measurements you get down the centre of the hood. I agree it doesn't look good and I really don't want to be you right now. When I pushed out my front apron dents I had to mount the hood and fenders and remove them more than once to make sure everything was lining up. Admittedly I only had a little bit of aligning to do and the front end was all original.

When eyeing out something if you use a trick from navigation or surveying theory - you should have a centre point like a plumb line in the middle of your cabin then line up all three centers. Hood centre, cabin centre and trunk centre. Trunk centre should be found by measuring the half point between the shock tower body bolt holes in the floor of the trunk.

Once you know how far it needs to shift I would have a chat with a good panel beater to help with ideas to shift your front clip over. Maybe for a small adjustment a portapower or ratchet winch will be adequate to pull it over but after a certain point you're gonna need to drill out some welds.
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Sydney, Australia.
66 Type 3 Fastback

Clatter · Posted: Mon Aug 10, 2015 11:57 pm Post subject:

Wow, thanks for all of the help, guys..
I keep looking at it and getting stuck in the same circular thought patterns..

The cardboard template idea is genius! Idea

Another one of those examples where i was stuck, because the window openings have round corners, as do the door frames.
With the flippable cardboard template, i can make a place to pull a number or two.. Brilliant.

One thing i did today was put a sheet-metal screw in the center rear of the cargo deck - right where the circle is stamped in my hood-ridge sight-line picture above.
Leaving the screw head about 1/4" up from flush gives me a dandy place to attach the 'dumb end' of the tape measure, and allows me to hit all kinds of angles repeatedly.
After pulling the clip off, it allowed me to get measurements from there to door hinges and drip-rail corners and whatnot.
From what i can tell, the door frames and windshield lower corners are almost where they are supposed to be.. Confused

Talking to my hero in Watsonvile, he is really too busy to take any work of this scope, unless i hit the Lotto.
He referred me to a place that does multi-million-dollar 60s Ferraris and such, and they have a frame jig, and know how to use it, but, um....
There's a tow yard/body shop that i could hit with a rock from here on a good day.
They have a full laser frame rack and all,
But,
After the 'work' they did to the frame horns on my beetle,
Throwing that rock comes to mind for another reason! Evil or Very Mad

Nick is going to try and get me one of those construction laser levels that throws a line along a plane - (if that makes any sense.. Confused

)
This should allow me to get my line like yabbadubba describes - surveyor tools and all. Wink

With a laser line laid down across the center of the whole car, hood and all, it *should* show some truth.

The whole front clip came from another straight car, and was removed from the old car entirely, at the spot-welds along the inner fenders.
I put some bumper brackets on it, but otherwise, it was undisturbed and un-hit, with bulkhead, inner fenders, tank supports, front apron, tire bowl, and struts all together as from the factory.
If it has any bend-age, it hides it very well - I'll get some numbers off of it tomorrow for, er, good measure.

Thinking that after the lower-windshield-corner templates are made, it will maybe give me the opportunity to perhaps zip some more sheet-metal-screw reference-point tape-measure-hooks in place.
Might do the same with some door frame corners, too?

Anybody got a copy of the door measurement page in the blue Bentley that eyetzr mentioned?
Dag, it would suck to shell out $150-odd bucks for a diagram that didn't help..
I have the Bus, Beetle, and Brown Bentleys here.. Mad

Maybe somebody, somewhere, has a blueprint drawing of a type 3 shell..?
Pray

Many, many, thanks for taking the time to look/read and guide my thoughts with this project, guys.
These last few posts have gotten me some great next few steps to take and try tomorrow.
Will knock out these measurements, and post up how it goes.

Once this clip is on... Milestone!
Pray

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Bus Motor Build

What’s That Noise?!?

Bobnotch · Posted: Tue Aug 11, 2015 9:16 am Post subject:

Yabbadubbadoo · Samba Member Joined: May 21, 2012 Posts: 914

Might be a good idea to bolt the fuel tank in to see if the opening is still square and maybe also to help keep things square when you're manipulating the clip to line up and then tack weld.
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Sydney, Australia.
66 Type 3 Fastback

Clatter · Posted: Tue Aug 11, 2015 2:42 pm Post subject: Skip This Post!

Welp,
Here's a bunch of pics to clog up your connection...

We'll start with happy things.. Smile

Headlight buckets scuffed and drowned in seam-sealer.

Piled huge quantities into the ductwork, too.

And, for fun, got to do some tidy work along parts that show.

Then, back to hell...

Can't find the tweakage;
Which is good, I guess..

From the (presumably straight) rear bulkhead to the shock towers:

Got this idea to screw in these at exactly the same depth;
From my centered rear sheetmetal screw:

Even to the corner of the hood looks good:

Speaking of ugly..
Theo picked up my phone and took a pic of me during this adventure.
You can see my physical condition deteriorating along with my mental condition.
First, the beard from camping stays, and then the hair becomes unkempt,
pretty soon i will be driven entirely crazy by this car.
Wandering around downtown, wearing two different shoes on the wrong feet, gesturing wildly and screaming at nobody!

Rowland the Gopher Guy came by for to kill some gophers,
And i roped him into some fettling.

Like, literally roped..

This led to some more mock-up.
And,
It kind of seems that maybe it's all good, save for the gap at the front of the cowl.
I can adjust the hood to work well at the sides and front if i let the rear gap go cerooked.
Here it opens up as it goes away - towards the driver's side..

So, maybe it's just a matter of getting the driver's side of the cowl pushed forward a bit???

Hopefully, Nick will come through with that laser thingie, and we'll know for sure...

Unless i just snap, of course...
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Bus Motor Build

What’s That Noise?!?

Nate M. · Posted: Tue Aug 11, 2015 3:34 pm Post subject:

I would definitely use a "laser" to first level the chassis on your blocks. Then use it to establish a good centerline side to side from the front to rear. I had a friend who built a 26" sail boat plug (the tool you splash a mold off of) and a laser was essential to getting everything symmetrical so everything fit perfectly. He was at least as anal as you are on things and it really paid-off.

Inspiring stuff my friend!!
_________________
Regards,

Nate M.

Squarsche build
Heavy Metal Affliction feature

For heaven's sake, put a type4 and a Porsche 5-speed in there. . . It's the right thing to do!!

racoguy · Posted: Tue Aug 11, 2015 5:13 pm Post subject:

Do me a favour and X measure your front clip........use the fuel tank mounting holes then do a bigger measurement, eg apron to cowl attachment points.
Don't bring the cowl forward, find and fix the actual problem.
The body looks pretty square as I suspected, your measurements prove that.
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Bobnotch · Posted: Tue Aug 11, 2015 9:34 pm Post subject:

old DKP driver · Posted: Tue Aug 11, 2015 10:00 pm Post subject: Lazer with Roland in Line

Steve,

It looks like 'Rolands' nose has been broken (Before) and also, his hat is crooked Shocked

which could lead to your measurement's ...... The reason
the body is off is,
...probably from those pesky Gophers hiding after moving the body off of
the chassis and, readjusting it so you can continue to be confounded.

You are getting Close Razz

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V.W.owner since 1967

ach60 · Posted: Wed Aug 12, 2015 9:20 pm Post subject:

You’re learning the same lesson I learned on my car the hard way
The lesson is get all the gaps corrected before you blow the car apart.

I’m really impressed by the amount of high quality work that you have done on this car, so getting the front end sorted with your skills is just a matter of time.
I’m curious if the body has been fully bolted to the pan yet.
If I were doing it, I’d bolt the body to the pan, checking to insure the body is square when bolted and fully torqued to the pan.
At that point I would start bolting panels on the car from back to front,
using all the beading that you’ll be using when you final assemble the car .
Once all these panels are hung starting from the back you’ll start making adjustments until all your panel gaps
Are where you want them to be.
At the front of the car you are chasing your tail, because you have lost all your hard points,
So you are just going to have to let the fenders, hood, and doors, tell you where to put that front clip.

See the fender to front apron gap here appears to be even on the right side, but on the driver's side not so good.

Drivers side fender to front apron gap here appears to growing larger the further down to ground you go.
But without the door and rear fender hung how do you know if the driver’s fender is inboard too far in at the top,
or what else is wrong. That’s why I say you have to hang all the panels and then “jam” the car as an assembly.
Also you didn’t do yourself and favor with those missing corners on the panel below the windshield.
I’d find a good replacement for that panel.

Maybe you get it, if still have this piece.

EXCELLENT WORK!!!!!!
_________________
Good Luck
Al


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