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sam_w
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Joined: March 07, 2002
Posts: 1479
Location: Petaluma, CA
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 Posted: Fri Jan 31, 2014 2:28 pm Post subject: Early Porsche 356 steering box in the Thingster |
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Having gone through 3 type 1 steering boxes in my off road travels, I decided to beef up.
I did notice at last year's Classic that some steering boxes were modified with Zerk fittings to get grease into them, and was told to use a mixture of moly grease and gear oil. But I decided that lubrication was not my problem.
I was told by Ronnie of Bustoration in Lake Havasu City, that 'in the day', people used ealy Porsche 356 Steering boxes for off-roading as they were much beefier. I did get one for a reasonable price on thesamba and so decided to bite the bullet. It has a VW part number! VW 111415 131. Maybe that is also an early beetle. I did fill it up with a mixture of moly grease and gear oil, it has a good sized filler plug, unlike the type 1 box.
So I went to my friend Adam at Kirkwood Vw in Campbell.
Well it was not as simple as I thought.
First early Porsche use the smaller track rod ends that were in type 1's prior to 65. Also the arm that connects the box to the track rods is larger on the Porsche box, so I could not switch arms. Thus I now have pre-65 track rod ends that are smaller. BTW the new track rod ends were not drilled for castellated nuts, like the one that came off. The old track rod ends also had cracks in the boots.
Secondly, the Porsche Steering box is 0.050" longer and the steering shaft rubs, We took out the fitting at the end of the steering tube, I do not know what it does.
Anyway, I now have a Porsche boix with a VW part number in my Thing, ready for off roading again.
Does anyone know of this being done on a Thing before?
Top of new/old box.
Underneath
Interference at steering tube
Seal removed to get rid of interference!
Pre-65 Type one track rod ends without holes.
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63 singlecab
73 thingster
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Ron Domeck
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Joined: August 05, 2007
Posts: 1466
Location: louisville Ky
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| Posted: Fri Jan 31, 2014 3:33 pm Post subject: |
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| Sam the part you removed was in case of a front wreck it would stop the steering shaft from driving up in the column and pushing the steering wheel at you. This all sounds bad but most cars don't have this part left over the years. |
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sam_w
Samba Member
Joined: March 07, 2002
Posts: 1479
Location: Petaluma, CA
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| Posted: Fri Jan 31, 2014 4:17 pm Post subject: |
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Ron, Thanks, I will try to remove that last 1/16" and put the spacer back.I do wear a harness so doubt I will be really close to the steering wheel.
The lack of pre-drilled holes in the 'new' pre-54 track rod ends does worry me.
Should I drill the, use back-up nuts, the nuts with a built-in non-loosen, or loctite?
Also the Porsche box does not have the piece sticking out for steering stops. Is that also a disaster?
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73 thingster
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Vanapplebomb
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Joined: November 03, 2010
Posts: 5410
Location: Holland, MI
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| Posted: Fri Jan 31, 2014 7:58 pm Post subject: |
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1)
The steering box you got is no stronger than the worm and sector bug boxes.
2)
When people rant and rave about the 356 steering box, they are talking about the later box made by ZF with an iron cover, four mounting studs, and tougher internal parts than the bug boxes. See picture below...
3)
Your box is the same as the late model (50's-1961) large shaft (28mm) worm and sector bug boxes. Check the number on the side of the box and see if it matches the cover. If it does, it is exactly the same thing, and you payed a Porsche price for something that was also found on bugs.
4)
With that said, the late model (50's-1961) large shaft (28mm) worm and sector bug boxes are much tougher than the worm and roller steering boxes used on bugs late '61 and on. You can still find many of them in good shape for very reasonable prices. They are my favorite for off roading because they are stronger than the later steering boxes, and are still affordable.
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Vanapplebomb
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Joined: November 03, 2010
Posts: 5410
Location: Holland, MI
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| Posted: Fri Jan 31, 2014 8:02 pm Post subject: |
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If you are looking to freshen up that box of yours, here is a little something that you can follow. This is from when I tore apart my '59 box.
| Vanapplebomb wrote: |
Well, I took apart a large shaft worm and sector steering box about a month ago and thought I would post up some of my stuff on cleaning it up and getting it ready to reuse.
I started stripping down the steering box by removing the drop arm and the toasted coupler. In the process I had a big red flag pop up. When I removed the lower stud beneath the gear box, no oil came out. Hmmm...
After removing the cover I found this disaster...now I know why a 53 year old steering box wasn't weeping a single drop from either of it's seals. There was not a single drop of oil in the box. This is what the result of more than a few years of neglect looks like.
Despite looking like a lost cause, I think that it will work ok after a good cleanup. Well, time to rip the rest of this guy apart...First up? The sector shaft! It is a tight fit, and takes some force to remove if from the housing. After removing the sector adjusting pin and spring, I used a punch to drive the shaft out from the bottom of the box. Note that the shaft assembly is two pieces, a ball with teeth cut into it, and a shaft with a socket in which the ball fits.
After the sector shaft was removed I pulled the worm shaft and adjustor. Removing the pinch bolt allows the adjustor to be pulled out of the box. Again, it is a snug fit, and some force had to be used. The box was pushed off the adjustor by smacking it with a hammer and punch.
The adjusting thrust ball bearing came out on the worm shaft (Note that this is the bearing the adjustor pushes on to take up the slack in the worm shaft [see second picture]). The opposing thrust ball bearing pressed in the housing was driven out with a socket. Also note that the bearing you see at the left in the steering box should have a 20mm freeze plug on the outside sealing the oil in.
Next the seals were removed. The small seal was driven out of the adjustor with a socket and punch. The large sector shaft seal was removed with "the drywall screw trick." I have always found that to be the easiest way to remove larger seals. Just drill a couple small holes in the edge, screw in some coarse drywall screws, then pull the seal out by prying on the heads of the screws.
With the box completely taken apart, it was time to give it a much needed bath
A 6” wire wheel on a grinder did a good job of taking off most of the surface rust from the ferrous parts. I was also able to do the majority of the cover with the wire wheal. I had to small use a wire bush to clean the insides of the box and wherever else the wire wheal couldn’t reach. A lot of work? Yeah, but I find it fun believe it or not. Anyways, yeah, once those parts were brushed up I shot them with brake cleaner to remove the oily residue and wash away any grit left on them.
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| Vanapplebomb wrote: |
I cleaned some of the corrosion off the worm gear with a small, fine, oiled file.
I also filled in the heavily pitted area on the sealing surface of the cover with some JB Kwik Weld, then filed it flat to restore the sealing surface.
The parts got a few shots of primer followed with either black or yellow paint.
New oil seals were purchased through a local industrial supply place and the rubber/fiber gasket material as well as the freeze plug was purchased through a local auto parts store. I traced and cut out a new gasket using the old one as a template. The sector shaft seal and freeze plug were driven into the housing and the input shaft seal was driven into the worm adjustor. Both oil seals were lubricated with grease.
With the seals installed I proceeded to drive in the bearings. The bearings were salvageable after some light polishing of the races. I packed them with grease before installing them. I first drove the one in behind the freeze plug. Then I dropped in the worm shaft, slid the adjustor bearing over the shaft, then drove it in until it was nice and snug against the worm shaft.
Next I wiped a little bit of silicone on the end of the worm adjustor. This just helps it seal well when it is set in place. The silicone is not a good adhesive, so future adjustments can easily be made. I left the pinch bolt out to be installed at a later time after the final adjustments.
After the worm adjustor was set in place I installed the sector shaft and gear. I lightly greased the worm and sector shaft as well as the ball socket and gear that fits into it.
The sector shaft was slipped into the bore in the steering box and the ball socket was placed over the gear. Once the shaft was in place the adjustor spring and pin were well greased and slipped into the bore on the top of the sector shaft.
Now the box was ready to be bolted together with the spring washers. I torqued the top four M8 bolts to 20ft*lbs
Now the box is ready to be filled with extreme pressure gear oil. Whatever you use for your transmission is fine. I will be using GL5 80-90W gear oil. Please note that the gear that fits into the ball socket on the sector shaft is a yellow metal, not steel, so be sure to use a gear oil that is safe to use with yellow metals. This was a problem with older high sulfur Gl5 gear oils, but virtually all modern gear oils are safe to use with yellow metals.
Once the box is filled with oil the fill plug can be tightened down and the sector shaft adjusting screw and jam nut can be installed and adjusted.
I have yet to find a good spacer to use for the "washer trick" with these old steering boxes with the large 28mm shafts. When I do I will bolt up the drop arm and call it a done deal  |
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sam_w
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Joined: March 07, 2002
Posts: 1479
Location: Petaluma, CA
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| Posted: Fri Jan 31, 2014 10:25 pm Post subject: |
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OK I might be wrong and maybe I should have gotten a ZF box, but it looks much better than the TRW Type I box that was there. I did not pay the $400 to $500 some people ask for these boxes and it is in really good shape.
The filler hole is much better and it is beefier.
I sure liked the way people had put Zerk fitting to fill up boxes at the Classis, has anyone got that on a Thing?
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Vanapplebomb
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Joined: November 03, 2010
Posts: 5410
Location: Holland, MI
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| Posted: Sat Feb 01, 2014 2:29 am Post subject: |
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I have seen lots of people put grease zerk fittings on the worm and roller boxes, because grease is an excellent lubrication for them. Don't do this on the worm and sector boxes like you have. They really need a liquid for proper lubrication.
Here is why...
In the later steering boxes, the roller also rotates when the worm is turned. This allows it to easily pick up and circulate grease as the two parts mesh and move together. The worm and sector box is more like a squeegee. Should you use grease, the sector will scrape it off of the worm. What you end up with is only a light oily film between the surfaces which lacks the extreme pressure additives suspended in the grease.
Think of it this way. In a ball bearing, you can pack it with grease because the balls are always rotating and circulating grease as the parts move. As the grease moves around one ball, the next ball comes though and works it again. It is a constant cycle. In a plain surface bearing, you need to periodically force grease in between the two surfaces in order to lubricate it since there is no way for grease to circulate into and out of the bearing without pressurizing it. Once grease leaves the bearing, it is gone. There is really nothing to gain by surrounding the plain surface bearing with grease....it just doesn't work. What you will end up with is tub of grease surrounding a bearing with the bearing starved for lubrication. Some may try and argue that there will always be a thin film between the two parts. True, but do realize that it is only a light oily film and lacks the extreme pressure additives needed to operate effectively under high loads.
Long story short, use an extreme pressure gear oil. Any GL4 or GL5 90W gear oil....so whatever you use in your transmission. The gear oil keeps the extreme pressure additives suspended in it, so the thin film between the sector gear and worm will support the high loads.
Hope this helps 
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mcmscott
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Joined: March 12, 2010
Posts: 4856
Location: sanger ca
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| Posted: Sat Feb 01, 2014 9:30 am Post subject: |
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In class 11, I used a fourth gear thrust washer between the pitman arm and the box. This transfers the shockloads to the cast iron box and not the cover. Very easy mod, and problem solved. Now you might want to carry spare tie rods. I garantee you a racing class 11 takes 10 times the beating you are doing
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Vanapplebomb
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Joined: November 03, 2010
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Location: Holland, MI
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| Posted: Sat Feb 01, 2014 5:00 pm Post subject: |
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Yup, and many of them have never had to change a steering box.
I have found that a pair of 1 1/8in machine bushings take up the space nicely as well. They look like thin washers. Pretty much any hardware store will sell them. I think the ones I used were 18gauge.
Also, when you put your pit arm on, either use shaft locking fluid, or tack weld it to the output shaft of the steering box. This will keep it from working up and down on the shaft over time...which makes the "washer trick" kinda worthless.
Scott, does that thrust washer fit these large shaft steering boxes???
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mcmscott
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Location: sanger ca
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| Posted: Sat Feb 01, 2014 7:26 pm Post subject: |
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[quote="Vanapplebomb"]Yup, and many of them have never had to change a steering box.
I have found that a pair of 1 1/8in machine bushings take up the space nicely as well. They look like thin washers. Pretty much any hardware store will sell them. I think the ones I used were 18gauge.
Also, when you put your pit arm on, either use shaft locking fluid, or tack weld it to the output shaft of the steering box. This will keep it from working up and down on the shaft over time...which makes the "washer trick" kinda worthless.
Scott, does that thrust washer fit these large shaft steering boxes???[/quot
Late gearboxes, yes
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65 Notch
02 Mexican beetle
74 Thing
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Vanapplebomb
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Joined: November 03, 2010
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Location: Holland, MI
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| Posted: Sat Feb 01, 2014 11:14 pm Post subject: |
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| mcmscott wrote: |
| Late gearboxes, yes |
Which "late" are we talking about? Late, as in the late (large shaft) version of the worm and sector box, or late as in the '61 and newer worm and rollers? It makes a big difference...
Sorry, just not quite sure what you mean by late 
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mcmscott
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Location: sanger ca
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| Posted: Sun Feb 02, 2014 11:24 am Post subject: |
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| Vanapplebomb wrote: |
| mcmscott wrote: |
| Late gearboxes, yes |
Which "late" are we talking about? Late, as in the late (large shaft) version of the worm and sector box, or late as in the '61 and newer worm and rollers? It makes a big difference...
Sorry, just not quite sure what you mean by late |
I was refering to the thrust washer in the transmission, I was unaware of the differences in sector shaft diameters.
The early thrust washer is 25mm id, and the late is 28. They are also hardened steel, so they don't get beat up as easily
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Vanapplebomb
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Location: Holland, MI
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| Posted: Sun Feb 02, 2014 5:27 pm Post subject: |
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Yes, there were a couple different sizes. That is pretty cool that the later transmission thrust washers will fit these steering boxes! I love learning new things
These are the first style of steering box fitted to VW's. They share similar basic internal mechanics, and are called "worm and sector" steering boxes. This style of box came in a couple flavors. In the following picture, you will see the major difference is in the size of the output shaft. The one on the left is the earliest and was used until the early '50's. Sometime in the early-mid 1950's, the output shaft (and box casting, obviously) were enlarged, and there were some minor differences in the cover casting...the later of which had narrow cast in gussets on the otherwise smooth cover. The differences between the covers can been seen in the second picture below. Notice the covers of the left have gussets, while the ones on the right have none. Despite the obvious visual changes, the basic internal mechanism remained unchanged.
In '61, the box was completely redesigned. It featured all new castings, new internal parts, and a new adjusting mechanisms. Below is a picture of the 61 and newer "worm and roller" steering boxes...notice the roller on the output shaft that meshes with the worm gear. They returned to the smaller output shaft, similar is size to the earliest steering boxes found on VW's.
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Vanapplebomb
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| Posted: Tue Feb 11, 2014 11:38 am Post subject: |
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Sam, did you get your box torn down, cleaned up, and put back together yet? Did you make sure to use the "washer trick" when you put your pit arm on?
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svs
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Location: Earth
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| Posted: Fri Apr 18, 2014 9:34 am Post subject: |
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I have that box if not mistaken, Had my front beam rebuilt for a Baja Bug with Adjusters welded in. Was told it's an early VW Box....
My question is there is a bolt on the cover next to the adjustment screw. What is the additional BOLT? (Not the four corner bolts that hold the cover.. )
My front Beam with new Box.
this is the cover and shows two holes... One for the Adjustment screw (smaller hole) and the other (larger) is? A fill hole for Fluid?
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diogo felix
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Location: Brazil
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| Posted: Sat Aug 09, 2014 4:20 pm Post subject: |
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SVS my friend, that's right, screw you quoted is for the complete fluid.
Leveraging the topic, does anyone know where to find these bearings? Look at the photos on my album, I have a box of these restored but the project just stopped because I can not find these bearings ... the code is Fag 200078D, and Vw is 111 415 227.
Sam_w, congratulations for the work.
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