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djkeev
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Joined: September 30, 2007
Posts: 32632
Location: Reading Pennsylvania
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 Posted: Thu Apr 02, 2015 4:12 pm Post subject: |
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Here is the wiring diagram for the Early 1986 units. I've not found this diagram anywhere, in books or online.
Print it out, slip it into your Bentley for future reference as needed.
It is similar to the Air cooled, similar to the 84/85 and similar to the Late 86-88 but yet......... So very different from any one of them!
I followed each wire from point to point and came up with this drawing.
The only Wire I am not 100% sure of it's connecting point is the RedYellow wire from the Evaporator Fan joining the Yellow/Black wire in the harness somewhere. Continuity confirms it does join but exactly where, I do not know.
I still need to finish the Radiator/Condenser cooling fan wiring diagram and also the modifications needed to wire in a Binary Pressure control switch......
Dave
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Stop Dead Photo Links how to post photos
Ghia
http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=392473
Vanagon
http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?p=6315537#6315537
Beetle
https://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=482968&highlight=74+super+vert |
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dhaavers
Samba Member
Joined: March 19, 2010
Posts: 7757
Location: NE MN (tinyurl.com/dhaaverslocation)
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| Posted: Thu Apr 02, 2015 6:54 pm Post subject: |
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Nice work, Dave - keep on it!
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86 White Wolfsburg Westy Weekender
"The WonderVan"
<EDITED TO PROTECT INNOCENT PIXELS> |
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djkeev
Samba Moderator
Joined: September 30, 2007
Posts: 32632
Location: Reading Pennsylvania
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djkeev
Samba Moderator
Joined: September 30, 2007
Posts: 32632
Location: Reading Pennsylvania
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| Posted: Wed Apr 08, 2015 6:17 am Post subject: |
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The new Receiver/Drier comes with plugs, outlet covers and a painted over sight glass.
Leave the Hose connection covers on and tight until you are ready to charge the unit!
Remember these units are designed to absorb moisture...... you remove those covers, you've just begun the decay of the unit. If you remove the covers early, you may just end up needing a new Receiver/Drier before you even get a chance to charge the system.
Same thing with the plugs for the Binary switch. Leave the unit sealed until you are ready to use it!
The new compressor comes sealed also. Leave the caps on until you are ready to charge the unit. The PAG oil is hydroscopic and will absorb moisture causing it to decay.
Do not delay long between assembly and evacuation and charging. The AC system HATES moisture!
Here is the new unit with the plugs in place but I removed the tape over the sight glass.......
Dave
_________________
Stop Dead Photo Links how to post photos
Ghia
http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=392473
Vanagon
http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?p=6315537#6315537
Beetle
https://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=482968&highlight=74+super+vert |
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BlueGrasser
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Joined: August 27, 2014
Posts: 562
Location: Sacramento
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| Posted: Fri Apr 17, 2015 10:45 am Post subject: |
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Was going to post a new thread, but I think my question fits into this existing one....
So I have a 1.8t conversion that was adapted to R-134a refrigerant two years ago when SAH did the engine swap. I bought the van about 8 months ago and the AC did not have a hint of cool to it, so I figured it just needed a recharge (I've heard the 134a in the old lines slowly leaks off).
Anyways, I tried topping off with a can of R-134a that a friend had leftover, but I was seeing about 25-27 PSI on the low side already and it wasn't really taking the charge from the can (the PSI would momentarily go up to 30, then drop back down).
So I ran the AC again, and little to no change. I pulled the front vent and touched the expansion valve and it was ice cold.
Touching the copper coming out of the evaporator, it was not cold in the slightest.
Do those valves go bad, and or get clogged? I take it there is no way of servicing it without evacuating the refrigerant???
I figure once I have it evacuated then I might as well pull it all apart and replace anything that didn't get replaced during the engine swap (I believe the swap only included compressor, drier, and maybe a few of the shorter runs of hose).
Why is it always a can of worms with these vans.... 
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Going to where the grass is bluer...
1985 Vanagon Westfalia Camper with 1.8T |
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MarkWard
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Joined: February 09, 2005
Posts: 17155
Location: Retired South Florida
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| Posted: Fri Apr 17, 2015 11:39 am Post subject: |
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Hello, are you using the 1.8T compressor? If so, most likely the problem is with the variable displacement style compressor. There is a valve in the reed plate that bypasses Freon. On my TDI, I removed the plate, drilled the valve and tapped it for an Allen Plug. I found the help on the TDI Club website.
http://forums.tdiclub.com/showthread.php?t=322778&highlight=Variable
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BlueGrasser
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Joined: August 27, 2014
Posts: 562
Location: Sacramento
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| Posted: Fri Apr 17, 2015 12:22 pm Post subject: |
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Hummm, that's an interesting read. I can't imagine why SAH would install an incompatible compressor though. I'll have to poke around to see exactly what I have.
AFAIK the expansion valve is stock original (patina seemed to indicate that).
Also, I know a few others running the SAH conversion and their AC works.
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Going to where the grass is bluer...
1985 Vanagon Westfalia Camper with 1.8T |
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Howesight
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Joined: July 02, 2008
Posts: 3274
Location: Vancouver, B.C.
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| Posted: Fri Apr 17, 2015 1:04 pm Post subject: |
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| BlueGrasser wrote: |
Was going to post a new thread, but I think my question fits into this existing one....
So I have a 1.8t conversion that was adapted to R-134a refrigerant two years ago when SAH did the engine swap. I bought the van about 8 months ago and the AC did not have a hint of cool to it, so I figured it just needed a recharge (I've heard the 134a in the old lines slowly leaks off).
Anyways, I tried topping off with a can of R-134a that a friend had leftover, but I was seeing about 25-27 PSI on the low side already and it wasn't really taking the charge from the can (the PSI would momentarily go up to 30, then drop back down).
So I ran the AC again, and little to no change. I pulled the front vent and touched the expansion valve and it was ice cold.
Touching the copper coming out of the evaporator, it was not cold in the slightest.
Do those valves go bad, and or get clogged? I take it there is no way of servicing it without evacuating the refrigerant???
I figure once I have it evacuated then I might as well pull it all apart and replace anything that didn't get replaced during the engine swap (I believe the swap only included compressor, drier, and maybe a few of the shorter runs of hose).
Why is it always a can of worms with these vans.... |
Hey Bluegrasser:
Some other pointers in addition to Mark's:
- If the stock factory hoses were not replaced when SAH did the 1.8 install, you will constantly be losing refrigerant because the old R12 rated hoses cannot contain the smaller molecule size of the R134A Freon molecules.
- The fix is either to have the hoses rebuilt with modern "barrier hose" or to flush the system to remove old oil and contaminants and thereafter use RedTek and PAG oil.
- Thermal Expansion Valves (TXV) are wear items and should simply be replaced if you are opening up the system. No need to go to VW. Nostalgic Air sells them and so does NAPA.
- If you do flush your system and need to determine how much oil to add, you install the amount the compressor manufacturer requires in its specs PLUS an amount to account for the incredibly long refrigerant lines in the Vanagon system. These lines allow some of the oil to accumulate in them so additional oil is needed to ensure that the compressor has sufficient oil mist in it at all times.
- When you are charging the system with refrigerant on the low pressure side and you do not have professional AC equipment, you usually need to heat the refrigerant can with a heat gun or hair drier to get the refrigerant pressure in the can higher than the low-side pressure in your system. If you vacuum your system down to a hard vacuum (-29 psi), the first can of refrigerant will go in easily, being drawn in by the vacuum. Thereafter, however, the compressor needs to draw it in by relatively lower pressure in your system than the pressure in the can. I did a step-by-step description of the charging procedure for DIYers that you can find here:
http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=562000&highlight=red+tek
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'86 Syncro Westy SVX |
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djkeev
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Posts: 32632
Location: Reading Pennsylvania
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vanis13
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Joined: August 15, 2010
Posts: 3100
Location: ABQ NM USA.... Except when not
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| Posted: Fri Apr 17, 2015 5:03 pm Post subject: |
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Agree with all except -
| Howesight wrote: |
| - If the stock factory hoses were not replaced when SAH did the 1.8 install, you will constantly be losing refrigerant because the old R12 rated hoses cannot contain the smaller molecule size of the R134A Freon molecules. |
I have converted a number of cars that I have now had for a decade, including the van. NO ISSUES loosing refrigerant through the hoses.
Even did a 1987 jeep with just retro fittings and filled with 134 didn't replace oil since its a beater car - all's good 8 years later.
On the van I did a complete flush, condenser, etc. it is COLD on 134 in 100+ degree heat in ABQ. I vacuum overnight and believe it to be quite important considering the size of our systems. The vacuum pump is borrowed form the local FLAPS (Autozone).
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83.5 Westy with Subaru 2.5, 4 spd manual, center seat, COLD A/C on 134a!, Winter camp heated with an Espar B4 gasoline furnace
www.SuperVanagon.com - some stuff I make |
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Terry Kay
Banned
Joined: June 22, 2003
Posts: 13331
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| Posted: Fri Apr 17, 2015 10:26 pm Post subject: |
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| vanis13 wrote: |
Agree with all except -
| Howesight wrote: |
| - If the stock factory hoses were not replaced when SAH did the 1.8 install, you will constantly be losing refrigerant because the old R12 rated hoses cannot contain the smaller molecule size of the R134A Freon molecules. |
I have converted a number of cars that I have now had for a decade, including the van. NO ISSUES loosing refrigerant through the hoses.
Even did a 1987 jeep with just retro fittings and filled with 134 didn't replace oil since its a beater car - all's good 8 years later.
On the van I did a complete flush, condenser, etc. it is COLD on 134 in 100+ degree heat in ABQ. I vacuum overnight and believe it to be quite important considering the size of our systems. The vacuum pump is borrowed form the local FLAPS (Autozone). |
This all sez to me as long as you used gypsy ac recharging techniques, you are one of the handful of folks who did the Wally World Rube Goldberg 134-A conversions that lucked out.
All of you 150 other folks out there in Vanagon frugality land.
If your trying to convince anyone worth one lick of common sense not to get the 30 some years old plus non-barrier hoses out of the vehicle and update to the right stuff, I'd have to say either your extremely cheap, out just plain outa your mind.
If you not running barrier hoses along with the 134, and trying to tell the folks here that it doesn't permeate through the hoses, I'd have to say your BSing' a bunch of folks.
Now tell us all that you didn't update any of the old o-rings either--didn't change the compressor oil---you had the mineral oil in with the 134, and it worked as well as if not better than R-12, or R12A.
Trying to tell a fairy tail here anyway.
Pure poppycock, and erroneous information--won't happen.
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Howesight
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Joined: July 02, 2008
Posts: 3274
Location: Vancouver, B.C.
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| Posted: Sat Apr 18, 2015 9:20 am Post subject: |
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Wow, TK. I was going to tell this guy he was very lucky and let the future leaks speak for themselves. Thanks for saying what we all think, but are too shy to say. 
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'86 Syncro Westy SVX |
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Terry Kay
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Joined: June 22, 2003
Posts: 13331
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| Posted: Sat Apr 18, 2015 10:46 am Post subject: |
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What really Burns me is the gypsy camp laying our bad Info for the kiddies to absorb.
"Hey, this Cigany did it, he claims it works just fine, I'll do the same".
Wrong.
I have no issues with being politically incorrect and setting the record straight for the sponges that want to learn the right way.
134 alternative freon Is Not compatible with thirty year old. R 12 non barrier AC lines.
Period.
Big waste of time, energy & Funds.
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T.K.
Last edited by Terry Kay on Tue Apr 21, 2015 2:26 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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BlueGrasser
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Joined: August 27, 2014
Posts: 562
Location: Sacramento
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| Posted: Tue Apr 21, 2015 2:22 pm Post subject: |
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| djkeev wrote: |
I would highly recommend you dip into your rainy day fund and buy some parts, do it right and not worry about it for the next 20 years.
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Yeah, I'm thinking if I do anything on it then it makes good sense to just do it all (and do it right at that). I'll start evaluating exactly what did and didn't get replaced. So far it's looking like just the drier and compressor are updated, so yet again I've stumbled into another expensive endeavor. I'll probably try to do most of it myself, but I'll need to take it somewhere to have any existing refrigerant evac'd (whatever hasn't already leaked out of 30 year old hoses that is).
Thanks for the advice everyone!
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Going to where the grass is bluer...
1985 Vanagon Westfalia Camper with 1.8T |
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LemonCove
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Joined: July 29, 2010
Posts: 324
Location: Henderson, NV
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| Posted: Tue Apr 21, 2015 3:17 pm Post subject: |
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| BlueGrasser wrote: |
. . . . but I'll need to take it somewhere to have any existing refrigerant evac'd |
I thank you, and Mother Nature thanks you 
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'88 Bostig Westy |
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vanis13
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Joined: August 15, 2010
Posts: 3100
Location: ABQ NM USA.... Except when not
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| Posted: Tue Apr 21, 2015 3:19 pm Post subject: |
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re: TK's two posts above.
1 - Luck counts
2 - I did change update parallel flow condenser, O rings, etc., flushed, a full service changeover (except hoses) on the Vanagon and all is well. On the Jeep I did only the refrigerant and all is well.
3 - I considered the cost of the new hoses (several hundred $$) and the time to install them and compare that to the cost of R134 refrigerant if I had to re-do it (about $40) and I thought I'd give it a try. So far so good and allowed for funds for other pressing improvements so I didn't have to choose between AC and those other improvements- it's been nice.
4 - What I don't get is the discounting of something working when it works just 'cause its different than what others would do. Surprising that is works is not sufficient
5 - I do get that rebuilding everything from scratch with all new parts may be the most secure way to go. If its always necessary,hmmmm I'd have to disagree.
_________________
83.5 Westy with Subaru 2.5, 4 spd manual, center seat, COLD A/C on 134a!, Winter camp heated with an Espar B4 gasoline furnace
www.SuperVanagon.com - some stuff I make |
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Howesight
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Joined: July 02, 2008
Posts: 3274
Location: Vancouver, B.C.
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| Posted: Tue Apr 21, 2015 3:44 pm Post subject: |
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| vanis13 wrote: |
re: TK's two posts above.
1 - Luck counts
2 - I did change update parallel flow condenser, O rings, etc., flushed, a full service changeover (except hoses) on the Vanagon and all is well. On the Jeep I did only the refrigerant and all is well.
3 - I considered the cost of the new hoses (several hundred $$) and the time to install them and compare that to the cost of R134 refrigerant if I had to re-do it (about $40) and I thought I'd give it a try. So far so good and allowed for funds for other pressing improvements so I didn't have to choose between AC and those other improvements- it's been nice.
4 - What I don't get is the discounting of something working when it works just 'cause its different than what others would do. Surprising that is works is not sufficient
5 - I do get that rebuilding everything from scratch with all new parts may be the most secure way to go. If its always necessary,hmmmm I'd have to disagree. |
Hey Vanis:
The Jeep conversion has about 5 feet of hoses, all in, the rest being hard lines. The Vanagon basically has no hard lines and about 50 feet of hoses. Switching your VW Vanagon condenser out and replacing with a parallel flow condenser was not mentioned in your original post, but is a big part of why your system is not leaking - - the head pressures are kept reasonable.
Having said all that, for anybody who has old hoses that don't leak yet, Red Tek is the way to go because it has large molecules, like R12, and will not leak out of non-barrier hose - - at least not as quickly as R134A will.
Until I actually tried it, I used t think that RedTek was some kind of snake oil, but Dupont is the one really selling snake oil, IMO.
I have a hose crimper and some other tools, so making hoses is easy and bulk barrier hose is relatively cheap, even up here in $anada.
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'86 Syncro Westy SVX |
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Terry Kay
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Posts: 13331
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| Posted: Tue Apr 21, 2015 3:59 pm Post subject: |
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50 ft. of 30 some year old hose designed to function with R-12.
The cross flow condensor is the only reason the mixmatched system us functioning at all.
Correct.
I don't think I saw anything mentioned regarding what's in the compressor for oil, and considering luck & all, you should be knocking on wood the vanagon system is functioning at all.
The Jeep?
Might be a 134 system from the get go.
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vanis13
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Location: ABQ NM USA.... Except when not
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| Posted: Tue Apr 21, 2015 4:42 pm Post subject: |
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| Terry Kay wrote: |
I don't think I saw anything mentioned regarding what's in the compressor for oil, and considering luck & all, you should be knocking on wood the vanagon system is functioning at all.
The Jeep?
Might be a 134 system from the get go. |
PAG oil in correct proportion to vanagon system capacity was a part of the "Full system change over"
Jeep is a 1987 so R12 for sure.
FWIW I believe the LOOONG (overnight) vacuum on the vanagon system is the sometimes missed key to good performance. When I read on here " I vacuumed the system for 30 minutes" I cringe. When I did mine even after a few hours I could see condensation come out of the vacuum pump. By the next day air coming out was fully dry. This process is true on the original fix for the OEM engine and then when I redid it with last years Subaru changeover.
(btw, on the jeep I just filled, didn't even vacuum. - trial/test on a beater. The leaking part on the jeep turned out the be the R-12 fill valve so when replaced with the R134 conversion valve it has been tight since- years)
Again, the determining factor was cost of it not working which in my case was $40 to a few hundred $$ to get the (possible) total insurance - a thing that worked out. If it didn't no big.
It was also - and this is important - a diagnostic test. Sometimes things hold vacuum but leak under pressure. kinda like knowing if a tank leaks, you don't REALLY know for sure until you fill it.
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83.5 Westy with Subaru 2.5, 4 spd manual, center seat, COLD A/C on 134a!, Winter camp heated with an Espar B4 gasoline furnace
www.SuperVanagon.com - some stuff I make |
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Terry Kay
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Joined: June 22, 2003
Posts: 13331
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| Posted: Tue Apr 21, 2015 5:22 pm Post subject: |
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So what your attempting to hawk here in your flim flam county fair barker methods is, go ahead and dump the lesser product into an R-12 system, it'll all be good.
First off, 134-A is a low performance alternative to R-12, or R-12A, and regardless of what you have done, or how you went about it, you'll never get anywhere near the same vent temps.
Second of all the R12-A isn't expensive.
So you gained nothing by short cutting the job.
The title of this subject is "Updates", not going backwards.
Again, if for nothing else you lucked out with doing the minimum with a low performace product, at higher operating pressures, ans no gain in lower vent temps.
Good for you being the personified cave man.
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T.K.
Last edited by Terry Kay on Tue Apr 21, 2015 7:51 pm; edited 2 times in total |
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