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Long axle long spline brake drum ,help
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Laxkraap
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PostPosted: Sun Feb 02, 2014 10:46 am    Post subject: Long axle long spline brake drum ,help Reply with quote

Hi all
Long time lurker first time poster
New manx 2 buggy owner and trying to fix several things po did to the buggy that i'm not happy with,the list is getting longer all the time!best i can tell is that i have a 64 pan with l/k pin front and a 68? long axle long spline tranny,this may be from a ghia.i bought the conversion rear drums from cip1 so i can delete the spacers that are on the rear now and have 5 wide on front and back.
I dont believe that the rear axle has the proper backing plates,no adjuster holes.i'm having a problem,when i put the new drums on,only finger tight, the axle nut doesn't look like it will ever line up with either hole through the axle as it probably needs to thread an additional 3/16",i'm just guessing at this measurement.
The bearing cap to end of spline is approximately 2 1/4" ,the length to the beginning of the threads is @2 3/8.the axle bearing housing is @4 11/16 out to out.the hub in the drum is 2 3/8 the best i measured.
Will the 68 backing plate help this or am i missing something alse?
Thanks for your time


Last edited by Laxkraap on Sun Feb 02, 2014 11:14 am; edited 1 time in total
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167luckycharm
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PostPosted: Sun Feb 02, 2014 11:13 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

The axles can slide deeper into the side gears and get hung up on the outer bearing. Make sure the axle has been pulled all the way outward and the drum seated all the way against the seal/bearing cap. As you tighten the axle nut, it should expose the tip of the axle more when they come together, but not to the point where excessive force is needed. You may need to back off the star adjusters if the shoes are preventing the drum from going on.
Good luck!
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Laxkraap
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PostPosted: Sun Feb 02, 2014 11:30 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thanks for the input.
another question...do they make different size axle nuts,as far as how thick/deep they are?but then again your suggestion may be all i need.
Also i plan on replacing all associated brake parts on the buggy.it now has the incorrect 30mm wide shoes on rear.do you know if i'll need the 68 backing plates in order to use the 40mm shoes?do i just mock it up and see if things look to be in line?
Thanks again
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VolkswagenGerry
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PostPosted: Sun Feb 02, 2014 11:45 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Are you running thing drums?
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Laxkraap
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PostPosted: Sun Feb 02, 2014 11:53 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

No thing drums.i bought the 68 conversion drums that cip1 sells,i think it would have been cheaper to buy the thing drums .i believe the po has/had the wrong drums and shoes on the rear axle.it had spacers in between the drum and bearing and between the drum and axle nut.
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VolkswagenGerry
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PostPosted: Sun Feb 02, 2014 2:18 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I may be wrong but it is likely you have 67 drums.
I ran 67 drums on my Baja (IRS). I used a spacer between drum and bearing. I believe the spacer was a stock swing axle component.

Have you done a front to rear wheel cylinder swap?
this may be something to consider while you are in there, it may also play a factor on the shoes you use...
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Laxkraap
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PostPosted: Sun Feb 02, 2014 4:45 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

VolkswagenGerry wrote:
I may be wrong but it is likely you have 67 drums.
I ran 67 drums on my Baja (IRS). I used a spacer between drum and bearing. I believe the spacer was a stock swing axle component.

Have you done a front to rear wheel cylinder swap?
this may be something to consider while you are in there, it may also play a factor on the shoes you use...

How can i tell if the swing axle is a 67? Haven't done a wheel cyllinder swap yet trying to figure the 'drum' issue out first,but i think i have everything to redo the entire brake system except the dual master cylinder.
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Laxkraap
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PostPosted: Sun Feb 02, 2014 6:32 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

New question.
The wide 5 drums that were on the buggy had a spacer between the drum and bearing cap AND a spacer between the axle nut and drum.given this, can i 'assume' that i have long spline axles?
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Dale M.
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PostPosted: Sun Feb 02, 2014 7:55 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Maybe this will explain a little....

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Laxkraap
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PostPosted: Sun Feb 02, 2014 8:21 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Dale
Thanks for the reply.looking at the pictures of the axle with the tape measure by them i feel confident that i have long spline axles.i do needto replace the bearing seal ( it leaks) and can measure the bearing seat area while i have it apart.i know that the axle does not have 68 backing plates ,there are no holes for brake adjustment.would i need ,in your opinion, to get the 68 backing plates in order to use the 'conversion' wide 5 drums that i purchased from cip?the buggy has what i believe to be the wrong brake shoes and drum on it now.
I'm trying to get the buggy back together for spring and the 'to do' list doesn't seem to be getting any shorter
Thanks again
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manxdavid
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PostPosted: Sun Feb 02, 2014 11:31 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

The drums that you've bought are designed to be used with 68 on 40mm wide shoes and cylinders which would need the later back plates.

What length are your splines? I'm not too sure but I think 66 and earlier ones could be shorter still than the 67 ones pictured. I know there's a 14mm difference between pre 66 and 68 on ones.
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Laxkraap
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PostPosted: Mon Feb 03, 2014 5:33 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Manxdavid,
The notes i have are telling me 2 3/8" to begining of threads.if i remember correctly, that is the spline only but i'll have to check again.the bearing housing on the inboard side of the backing plate measures @ 4 11/16" ( the bearing hub?). This tells me ,i think, that they are long axle just have to confirm that they're long spline.
The trans has a number A0003745.
Thanks again
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manxdavid
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PostPosted: Mon Feb 03, 2014 5:58 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

AO prefix is for a 70 on Karmann Ghia box so it should just have regular long shafts.

How does the spline lenght in the hubs compare to the spline length of the shafts?
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PostPosted: Mon Feb 03, 2014 7:25 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

To add... you really cant go by Transaxle numbers as any pair combination of axles can be used..

That photo reference that Dale dropped in is mine.. If you need me to measure my 68 axle splines... I still have them out..

The conversion drums are drop on replacements for 4 lugs..
If you have no holes in your backing plate for adjustment they are pre 68.

The backing plates for pre 65 dont have the rasied "Shoe Boss's" or platforms the shoes actually rest on. this was a change to help keep the shoes more stable. That started with angled shoes and adjusters (see below)

So if you have rasied boss's, and no adjustment holes...you most likely have 65-67 rear backing plates and can use 65-67 30 mm rear shoes or 68 up 40mm shoes.
FYI 65 up adjusters have the angle cut adjuster... thats the difference..


http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=570197
http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=571853


VOLKSWAGNUT wrote:


glutamodo wrote:
The 65-67 are actually almost the same as the 58-64, they just use an angled adjuster. If you change the adjusters, you can use the later shoes. And you can put the early adjusters on a 65-67 and use the early shoes.
The early ones are straight, the late ones are angled:

Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


And here's the brake shoe chart:

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Backing plates Pre 66 compared to a 68.

Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.

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EVfun
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PostPosted: Mon Feb 03, 2014 9:19 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

VOLKSWAGNUT wrote:
To add... you really cant go by Transaxle numbers as any pair combination of axles can be used..

The backing plates for pre 65 dont have the rasied "Shoe Boss's" or platforms the shoes actually rest on. this was a change to help keep the shoes more stable. That started with angled shoes and adjusters (see below)

So if you have rasied boss's, and no adjustment holes...you most likely have 65-67 rear backing plates and can use 65-67 30 mm rear shoes or 68 up 40mm shoes.
FYI 65 up adjusters have the angle cut adjuster... thats the difference..


glutamodo wrote:
The 65-67 are actually almost the same as the 58-64, they just use an angled adjuster. If you change the adjusters, you can use the later shoes. And you can put the early adjusters on a 65-67 and use the early shoes.


No backing plate can correctly accept both 30mm and 40mm shoes. The adjusters are located further outward on the late backing plates designed for 40mm shoes.

The difference between pre-65 and '66-'67 is a combination of the angled adjusters and the extra shoe rest pads. With the early brakes the 3 shoe resting points are outside of the hold down spring in the center and the slot in the wheel cylinder and the slot in the adjuster. The '65 and newer brakes have much wider slots in the wheel cylinders and adjusters so they rely on the extra resting points on the backing plates. You really shouldn't mix these parts up.

I'm running '67 axles and tubes but transferred the early '58-'64 rear brakes over to them to match the front of my '64 frame. I use early bearing caps that look more like the '68 ones in a side shot (short), but they are like the '67 ones except they don't have the built in oil slinger.
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PostPosted: Mon Feb 03, 2014 9:55 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

EVfun wrote:

No backing plate can correctly accept both 30mm and 40mm shoes. The adjusters are located further outward on the late backing plates designed for 40mm shoes.


Yeah Your right..... I messed up... I meant to say:

So if you have rasied boss's, and no adjustment holes...you most likely have 65-67 rear backing plates and can use 65-67 30 mm rear shoes or swap to 68 up backing plates and 40mm shoes.
FYI 65 up adjusters have the angle cut adjuster... thats the difference..

sorry...Late night... Laughing

GTman wrote:

I bought 67 drums and thought that they would fit over the wider 40 mm shoes. I thought wrongly, so bought the 270 type 30 mm shoes, and tried a trial fit. Found that they will work with the 67 drums, BUT I have IRS backing plates and wheel cylinders, so discovered that the 30 mm shoes dont fit properly on the raised pads of the backing plate (raised above it by the wheels cylinders and adjusting screws).

Thanks, Grant


Does anyone happen to have any pictures referencing 65-67 and 68 (IRS) measured offset differences besides the holes for the adjuters. ?
That would be a great reference picture..
If not... Ill dig through my parts and provide...
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Its your vehicle- stop askin' for approval-do what YOU like for cryin' out loud
Better to roll em' how you want and wear em' out-than lettin' em' rot out
Its about the going not the showing
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WANTED: Local Eatin' Joints, Triple D for TheSamba contributions here http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=570510
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Last edited by VOLKSWAGNUT on Thu Feb 06, 2014 8:44 am; edited 2 times in total
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Laxkraap
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PostPosted: Mon Feb 03, 2014 3:20 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

trying to upload some pictures....this my take awhile
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PostPosted: Mon Feb 03, 2014 4:06 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

well guys i got the photos uploaded to sambas' gallery but i can't figure out how to post them here.
title is; rear brake/spline ,i think, description is long axle
i'm using a mac computer for the first time and can't "right click and copy" the forum code
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PostPosted: Mon Feb 03, 2014 4:58 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I went and looked at the pictures and I can determine some things. You have '58-'64 rear backing plates, so 30mm wide rear brakes. You have the older type bearing cap installed, that would have come with those brakes and original transaxle. The newer ones have a built in oil slinger. I have all those same parts, only with 1967 axles and tubes (long axle short splines.)

I looks like you have a '68 transaxle, because the bearing appears to be farther in, compared to the 1967 and older transaxles (on these the bearing is about half in the housing and half in the cap.) I think the older cap would allow the bearing to be pulled out as the axle nut was tightened, so you would run out of threads before you got the nut tight, even with the spacer. I think just changing to the correct cap will fix your problem. From what I understand, the '68 cap is 1 year only in the USA, different than the IRS Bugs.
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PostPosted: Mon Feb 03, 2014 5:12 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

EVfun wrote:
I went and looked at the pictures and I can determine some things. You have '58-'64 rear backing plates, so 30mm wide rear brakes. You have the older type bearing cap installed, that would have come with those brakes and original transaxle. The newer ones have a built in oil slinger. I have all those same parts, only with 1967 axles and tubes (long axle short splines.)

I looks like you have a '68 transaxle, because the bearing appears to be farther in, compared to the 1967 and older transaxles (on these the bearing is about half in the housing and half in the cap.) I think the older cap would allow the bearing to be pulled out as the axle nut was tightened, so you would run out of threads before you got the nut tight, even with the spacer. I think just changing to the correct cap will fix your problem. From what I understand, the '68 cap is 1 year only in the USA, different than the IRS Bugs.

Thanks EVfun
I guess what i'm trying to find out is 'what is the proper way to use a wide 5 drum with my current axle?'i still don't know if i have a long spline axle for sure.I do know that the wide 5 drum that is on it now is using 2 spacers,1before the drum and 1 after the drum and i'm not liking that at all.
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