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Laxkraap
Samba Member
Joined: October 20, 2013
Posts: 141
Location: Stl,mo
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 Posted: Tue Feb 04, 2014 1:34 pm Post subject: |
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Well i can't get the freaking bearing off to measure the bearing hub seat area.this sux
Dale m...there are a couple of numbers on the old drum 113501;615A;AES45.these are inside the drum |
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Manx1173
Samba Member
Joined: July 19, 2005
Posts: 146
Location: Missouri
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| Posted: Tue Feb 04, 2014 1:43 pm Post subject: |
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| Laxkraap, where are you in STL? I am in Troy, Missouri and might be able to swing by and help. I also have some parts that we can swap out to find a set that works. |
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Laxkraap
Samba Member
Joined: October 20, 2013
Posts: 141
Location: Stl,mo
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| Posted: Tue Feb 04, 2014 2:06 pm Post subject: |
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I actually live in florissant,but i think i may have stumbled upon my problem.the old drum will go all the way on to the 'bearing seal race' when put on snout fist( backwards).The new drums will not go past the 'coin edge' portion of the spline, so i'm thinking that they aren't machined properly...just a little snug?
I'll post some pics. When i get home
Thanks for the offer manx1173
Tony |
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VOLKSWAGNUT
Fastest VW Belt Changer
Joined: October 14, 2007
Posts: 11055
Location: Flippin' a Belt........ .... Off-n-On ... NC USA
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| Posted: Tue Feb 04, 2014 2:07 pm Post subject: |
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http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=92215
_________________
aka Ken {o\!/o}
Its your vehicle- stop askin' for approval-do what YOU like for cryin' out loud
Better to roll em' how you want and wear em' out-than lettin' em' rot out
Its about the going not the showing
Rebuilt to drive not decorate
WANTED: Local Eatin' Joints, Triple D for TheSamba contributions here http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=570510
Search "VOLKSWAGNUT" on YouTube since you cant watch a "certain" BELT change video round here
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Laxkraap
Samba Member
Joined: October 20, 2013
Posts: 141
Location: Stl,mo
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| Posted: Tue Feb 04, 2014 2:14 pm Post subject: |
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Checked with autozones in my area and they don't have the tool.I really don't want to tap it with a sledge and the gear puller i 'massaged' isn't doing squat.
I'll have to reread the thread you linked to about the puller on the axle tube...if thats what your suggesting |
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VOLKSWAGNUT
Fastest VW Belt Changer
Joined: October 14, 2007
Posts: 11055
Location: Flippin' a Belt........ .... Off-n-On ... NC USA
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| Posted: Tue Feb 04, 2014 3:27 pm Post subject: |
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| Laxkraap wrote: |
Checked with autozones in my area and they don't have the tool.I really don't want to tap it with a sledge and the gear puller i 'massaged' isn't doing squat.
I'll have to reread the thread you linked to about the puller on the axle tube...if thats what your suggesting |
No... not unless you want to deal with axle tubes, gasket shims and .the rest...
The homeade puller with the modified bolts work well to pull the bearing.. A little heat helps as well. Read the link.. Even the cheap pullers from Harbor Frieght, Tractor Supply, Lowes, Sears, Nothern Tool...just about any decent tool supply store will have something.
If you really dont feel like messing with the bearing..AND IF are 100 % sure the bearing is full seated in the end casting.. you can measure the remaining bearing thats protruding out... That measurement should be spot on the exact depth of the bearing surface in the cap..
Me personally... Id want to know if the INNER #5 spacer behind the bearing is there.....
_________________
aka Ken {o\!/o}
Its your vehicle- stop askin' for approval-do what YOU like for cryin' out loud
Better to roll em' how you want and wear em' out-than lettin' em' rot out
Its about the going not the showing
Rebuilt to drive not decorate
WANTED: Local Eatin' Joints, Triple D for TheSamba contributions here http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=570510
Search "VOLKSWAGNUT" on YouTube since you cant watch a "certain" BELT change video round here
Usually and often edited |
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Manx1173
Samba Member
Joined: July 19, 2005
Posts: 146
Location: Missouri
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| Posted: Tue Feb 04, 2014 4:40 pm Post subject: |
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[quote="VOLKSWAGNUTNo... not unless you want to deal with axle tubes, gasket shims and .the rest...[/quote]
Is it possible the axle has moved out and the fulcum plates have wedged behind the axle? I think it would be easiest to pull the bearing using a puller on the axle tube and starting over with the install. |
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Dale M.
Samba Member
Joined: April 12, 2006
Posts: 20377
Location: Just a tiny bit west of Yosemite Valley
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| Posted: Tue Feb 04, 2014 4:47 pm Post subject: |
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| Manx1173 wrote: |
| Aren't the "conversion drums" really just stock type 3 components (aftermarket ?) or are they made for the narrower shoes? |
Type three drums are larger diameter (10+ inches) and take a even wider shoe and you have to have type 3 backing plates.... Adding type three brakes is a good bolt on alternative to disks for having more rear braking with out having to go to disks.... Put type three on back of my FG buggy I built for AUTO X and loved them.... BUT I believe this discussion is about type 1 brakes....
Dale
_________________
“Fear The Government That Wants To Take Your Guns" - Thomas Jefferson.
"Kellison Sand Piper Roadster" For Street & Show.
"Joe Pody Sandrover" Buggy with 2180 for Autocross (Sold)
============================================================
All suggestions and advice are purely my own opinion. You are free to ignore them if you wish ... |
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Dale M.
Samba Member
Joined: April 12, 2006
Posts: 20377
Location: Just a tiny bit west of Yosemite Valley
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| Posted: Tue Feb 04, 2014 4:56 pm Post subject: |
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Cip1 web page (linl)...
http://www2.cip1.com/ProductDetails.asp?ProductCode=C31-501-615-211AG
The way I read it, the part number is for Beetle 68 to 79... That translates to long spline to me....
Dale
_________________
“Fear The Government That Wants To Take Your Guns" - Thomas Jefferson.
"Kellison Sand Piper Roadster" For Street & Show.
"Joe Pody Sandrover" Buggy with 2180 for Autocross (Sold)
============================================================
All suggestions and advice are purely my own opinion. You are free to ignore them if you wish ... |
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EVfun
Samba Member
Joined: April 01, 2012
Posts: 5474
Location: Seattle
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| Posted: Tue Feb 04, 2014 5:39 pm Post subject: |
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| Laxkraap wrote: |
Well i can't get the freaking bearing off to measure the bearing hub seat area.this sux
Dale m...there are a couple of numbers on the old drum 113501;615A;AES45.these are inside the drum |
The only backyard way I know is to remove the axle tube cover nuts, and brakes, and then you can use a puller to pull the entire axle tube out with the bearing about 1 inch. After that you can push the axle tube back on and then use a puller behind the bearing. It is a PITA, but it is safe and works with a standard 2 jaw or 4 jaw puller. The bearing needs to be replaced at that point as the balls will ding the races from the force of pulling.
That said, with patience it should be possible to make sure the bearing is seated on the axle (it should be since the brakes where previously assembled) and seated in the axle tube. Then measure to see if everything is right. You need to know how long the measurement is from the outside face of the inner bearing race to the end of the splines for '68 axles and the seated depth of the outer race for both '67 and '68 axle tubes.
I've never had a problem getting my drum over the last part of the splines without the ridges, so I've got nothing there. Are you sure the drum number is 113 501 615 A? I thought that was for oval window Bugs, and not interchangeable with '58-'67 rear drums. My understanding was that the smooth top '58-'67 drums where 113 501 615 B.
_________________
| Wildthings wrote: |
| As a general rule, cheap parts are the most expensive parts you can buy. |
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Laxkraap
Samba Member
Joined: October 20, 2013
Posts: 141
Location: Stl,mo
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| Posted: Tue Feb 04, 2014 6:08 pm Post subject: |
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Dale
Exactly,I believe that i have a long axle,long spline tranny...that is basically what i am trying to determine.i'm new to the buggy scene but have owned
3 different vw bugs in the past (@ 30 years ago).I just trying to undo the wrong things the PO's have done and the list seems to be getting longer.the best one to date is the shortened 'hockey stick'.don't think i'll ever figure out why someone would do that.
I'll post some pics shortly to show how far the new conversion drum goes on before it stops,binds on the area of the axle where the ridges/coin edge stop.
The email response i just got from CIP says to drive the drum on a couple of times with a rubber mallet,And it should get easier to slide on and off as i work it. doesn't sound right to me?
I also think the tranny is from a ghia according to the serial number i posted earlier,but i've read that the charts posted are not that reliable.
On an upnote i just got the rebel wiring harness in the mail today!just wish i was done with deconstruction.I should probably post pics of the build
Tony |
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Laxkraap
Samba Member
Joined: October 20, 2013
Posts: 141
Location: Stl,mo
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| Posted: Tue Feb 04, 2014 6:49 pm Post subject: |
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dale m
here is what i'm talking about
the new drum vs. the old drum.I know they are on backwards but it lets me see how for they actually go on
tony |
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Laxkraap
Samba Member
Joined: October 20, 2013
Posts: 141
Location: Stl,mo
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| Posted: Tue Feb 04, 2014 7:00 pm Post subject: |
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EVfun
those are the drums the buggy came with.I don't know what they're from but they used the inside and outside (of the drum) spacers.
Manx1173,
the PO had driven it this way,she said, for @5 years.i didn't take anything loose as far as the bearing cap until i started this thread,and never pulled on the axle with the bearing cap off.
and i got your p.m.
thanks |
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Laxkraap
Samba Member
Joined: October 20, 2013
Posts: 141
Location: Stl,mo
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| Posted: Tue Feb 04, 2014 7:20 pm Post subject: |
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Dale M
are these 68 bearing caps?If so i'd like to get all necessary hardware to complete the rear brakes.This is the bearing capture area on the cap.I did't think to measure the entire cap,sorry.They look to be 5mm deep on the bearing side
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Dale M.
Samba Member
Joined: April 12, 2006
Posts: 20377
Location: Just a tiny bit west of Yosemite Valley
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| Posted: Tue Feb 04, 2014 7:42 pm Post subject: |
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Believe you have have early bearing caps (judging from pic) again its a part numbers thing to verify, the great thing is VW put part numbers on almost everything... Maybe somebody at RANCHO Transmission ns can help you with part numbers.... OR Longs Interposes...
http://ranchotransaxles.com/
http://www.longenterprises.com/
I would call Long E. and ask about part number #30 in sketch and see if they can give you VW numbers...
As for drum not sliding on all the way.... If its the ridge around outer diameter of splines (next to outer spacer) keeping drum from going on, take a little material off, it really should be "slip" fit....... The actually holding power of the whole system is in the 217ft-lbs torque applied to nut its not critical to have splines "press fit" tight...
Dale
_________________
“Fear The Government That Wants To Take Your Guns" - Thomas Jefferson.
"Kellison Sand Piper Roadster" For Street & Show.
"Joe Pody Sandrover" Buggy with 2180 for Autocross (Sold)
============================================================
All suggestions and advice are purely my own opinion. You are free to ignore them if you wish ...
Last edited by Dale M. on Wed Feb 05, 2014 9:10 am; edited 1 time in total |
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EVfun
Samba Member
Joined: April 01, 2012
Posts: 5474
Location: Seattle
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| Posted: Tue Feb 04, 2014 7:59 pm Post subject: |
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| Laxkraap wrote: |
EVfun
those are the drums the buggy came with.I don't know what they're from but they used the inside and outside (of the drum) spacers.
Manx1173,
the PO had driven it this way,she said, for @5 years.i didn't take anything loose as far as the bearing cap until i started this thread,and never pulled on the axle with the bearing cap off.
and i got your p.m.
thanks |
If the idea that the car was driven for several years with the previous assembly seems credible to you then let us assume that a working combination was assembled. You should be able to take a brass bar and hammer to tap on the bearing outer race, making sure it is seated in the axle tube (no beating, tap and listen for that dead blow sound.) With the bearing is seated you can measure the amount of the bearing that sticks out of the axle tube. With a picture of that I bet we can figure out if you have '68 tubes or '67 tubes (you have '68 axles.) Then we will know what bearing cap should be used. I'm hoping you find '67 axle tubes because that is the type of bearing caps that where being used. If we find they got that wrong I'd be getting nervous about what else may be wrong. If they got that right it seems reasonable to proceed as if they knew what they where doing.
If all seems good to this point you will need the thin inner and wider outer spacers to install the original drums on your car. You will not need them to install the new drums. You can rebuild your brakes as '64 and use either drum. If you want to upgrade to late 40mm wide brakes you will need new backing plates, adjusters, wheel cylinders, hardware kit, and of course the wider shoes to go with these '68-up parts (not bearing caps though, the bearing caps have to match the axle tube, not the brakes.) You will then have to run the new adapter brake drums.
But right now you have a hang-up. It seems the new drums don't want to slide on all the way. First, try to slide them on the right way and see of the problem exists the important direction. If it does I would take a piece of emery cloth, or tiny fine file, and use it like you are trying to chamfer the inside edges of the drum splines. Carefully break the edges ever so slightly on tops, sides, and base of the spines in the end of the drum. Then clean the splines up to remove any metal bits. It is possible that a little bit of rolled metal at the edge of the cut is what you are hanging up on. The new drum should slide on the right distance to install the nut and cotter pin. It might need a little mallet help, but not a beating. Once you have established that you are ready to replace the seals and rebuild your brakes.
_________________
| Wildthings wrote: |
| As a general rule, cheap parts are the most expensive parts you can buy. |
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VOLKSWAGNUT
Fastest VW Belt Changer
Joined: October 14, 2007
Posts: 11055
Location: Flippin' a Belt........ .... Off-n-On ... NC USA
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| Posted: Wed Feb 05, 2014 7:55 am Post subject: |
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| VOLKSWAGNUT wrote: |
Anybody got the Looney Tunes theme rolling in their head besides me?
Seems like we are going round and round and round with the same answers.  |
Laxkraap it sounds like you're in good hands... Im outta here..
To much repeating for me...  ...
_________________
aka Ken {o\!/o}
Its your vehicle- stop askin' for approval-do what YOU like for cryin' out loud
Better to roll em' how you want and wear em' out-than lettin' em' rot out
Its about the going not the showing
Rebuilt to drive not decorate
WANTED: Local Eatin' Joints, Triple D for TheSamba contributions here http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=570510
Search "VOLKSWAGNUT" on YouTube since you cant watch a "certain" BELT change video round here
Usually and often edited |
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Laxkraap
Samba Member
Joined: October 20, 2013
Posts: 141
Location: Stl,mo
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| Posted: Wed Feb 05, 2014 3:49 pm Post subject: |
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Volkswagnut
Thanks for the help..sorry if you feel i was given the answer to my problem over and over but i wasn't 'seeing' 1 definitive answer.
Dale M,EVfun,Manx
Thanks again for the info and suggestions
Sorry if i was being dense but i'm dealing with the brakes and don't want to do something that would be foolish or dangerous.
Lxkraap |
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Manx1173
Samba Member
Joined: July 19, 2005
Posts: 146
Location: Missouri
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| Posted: Wed Feb 05, 2014 7:08 pm Post subject: |
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Laxkraap, In summary, you definitely have long axle tubes (i.e. 67 or 68 ), long spline axles (i.e. 68 ) and the wrong bearing caps. The bearing cap number for long axle/spline is 311501311A. If you can remove the bearing and confirm which axle tubes you have (see Dale's previous photos) you will have to do one of the following:
10 mm = 67 axle tubes...you need new axle tubes, bearing caps and backing plates
13 mm = 68 axle tubes...you need new bearing caps and backing plate
I have a set of used 68 axle tubes, long axle/long spline axles, bearing caps, backing plates with brake hardware and drums (4 lug) that I will sell for $60 if you are interested. I work in Westport and can either meet you after work or stop by once the weather clears.
Some of the information above is based on other posts in this thread as working the conversion drums. I have never used them (I have Type 3 components on my Manx 1) and cannot attest to the fitment. |
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Laxkraap
Samba Member
Joined: October 20, 2013
Posts: 141
Location: Stl,mo
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| Posted: Wed Feb 05, 2014 7:41 pm Post subject: |
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Manx1173
I'll look at the bearing cap to see if i can find a part# tomorrow.I've had it off a couple of times and never thought to look for a number.i'll let you know what i find.
Thanks |
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