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EVfun
Samba Member
Joined: April 01, 2012
Posts: 5481
Location: Seattle
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 Posted: Wed Feb 05, 2014 7:50 pm Post subject: |
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| Manx1173 wrote: |
Laxkraap, In summary, you definitely have long axle tubes (i.e. 67 or 68 ), long spline axles (i.e. 68 ) and the wrong bearing caps. The bearing cap number for long axle/spline is 311501311A. If you can remove the bearing and confirm which axle tubes you have (see Dale's previous photos) you will have to do one of the following:
10 mm = 67 axle tubes...you need new axle tubes, bearing caps and backing plates
13 mm = 68 axle tubes...you need new bearing caps and backing plate |
Is it not possible to run '68 axles in '67 axle tubes (using '67-down caps)? I have not tried that, but I have been told that is possible before this thread. It is also possible that someone put early caps on '68 axle tubes, and that is bad but easy to fix.
Here is a good post of the axle end assembly, with the parts labeled.
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| Wildthings wrote: |
| As a general rule, cheap parts are the most expensive parts you can buy. |
Last edited by EVfun on Wed Feb 05, 2014 8:23 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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Laxkraap
Samba Member
Joined: October 20, 2013
Posts: 141
Location: Stl,mo
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| Posted: Wed Feb 05, 2014 8:02 pm Post subject: |
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| EVfun wrote: |
| Manx1173 wrote: |
Laxkraap, In summary, you definitely have long axle tubes (i.e. 67 or 68 ), long spline axles (i.e. 68 ) and the wrong bearing caps. The bearing cap number for long axle/spline is 311501311A. If you can remove the bearing and confirm which axle tubes you have (see Dale's previous photos) you will have to do one of the following:
10 mm = 67 axle tubes...you need new axle tubes, bearing caps and backing plates
13 mm = 68 axle tubes...you need new bearing caps and backing plate |
Is it not possible to run '68 axles in '67 axle tubes (using '67-down caps)? I have not tried that, but I have been told that is possible before this thread. It is also possible that someone put early caps on '68 axle tubes, and that is bad but easy to fix.
Dale recently posted a nice picture of the axle tube assembly. That bottom row with the brake drum is particularly relevant. I'll label the parts:
12. End of the axle tube
24. Inner bearing spacer
25. Axle bearing
27. O-ring that goes over the outer race of the axle bearing, the backing plate goes on before this but is not fastened in place until 30 is installed
26. Washer that goes over the axle and against the inner race of the bearing
28. O-ring that goes over the axle and against washer 26
29. Oil seal race that goes against o-ring 28
32. Lip oil seal that rides on seal race 29
34. Oil slinger washer, used on later brakes only, a drum mounted oil slinger is used on early brakes
31. Paper gasket, used on later brakes only
30. Axle bearing cover, also retains the backing plate. |
Not sure of the part number,i'll know tomorrow but my pic shows a bearing side depth of @ 5mm
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Manx1173
Samba Member
Joined: July 19, 2005
Posts: 146
Location: Missouri
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| Posted: Wed Feb 05, 2014 8:12 pm Post subject: |
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| Laxkraap wrote: |
Not sure of the part number,i'll know tomorrow but my pic shows a bearing side depth of @ 5mm
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If this is the same bearing cap as in earlier pics, it is not correct. The early caps used an oil slinger and the later caps route any leaking oil through the backing plate. Here is an ad for the cap you are looking for 68 axles and tubes.
http://www.thesamba.com/vw/classifieds/detail.php?id=1206213 |
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VOLKSWAGNUT
Fastest VW Belt Changer
Joined: October 14, 2007
Posts: 11056
Location: Flippin' a Belt........ .... Off-n-On ... NC USA
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| Posted: Thu Feb 06, 2014 6:45 am Post subject: |
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Ok... I am going to jump back in..... just to try and clear things up..
I think this is a case of TOO much information clouding things... ] 
Yes 1968 axles can be used inside 1967 tubes.. The difference in axle length is ALL AT THE SPLINES.. go back and look at page 1.... the axles are the same EXCEPT the end splines..
There are 3 real life axle lengths....
| VOLKSWAGNUT wrote: |
For Tunnel case transaxle with Swing Axles
Short axle/short spline - '61-'66 T1
Long axle /short spline - '67 T1
Long axle/long spline - '68 up T1 |
The bearing depth in the cap and the tubes are the same 67 and older
The bearing depth and caps are the same 68 and newer..
If you have 67 end castings... you must use 67 and OLDER bearing caps...PERIOD... just due to the bearing depth...
Yes Manx1173 is correct about the weep hole.. You really need to match the correct backing plate to the correct cap for drainage only.
65-67 (and 68 ) bearing caps should have a shrouded oil seal, internal slinger (deflector) and weep hole out the back of the backing plate..
Pre 65 had a "drum slinger" (deflector) which is external to the seal.. THOSE ARE THE CAPS YOU HAVE.. pre 65...
| bill may wrote: |
| change to bearing retainers from 65-67 beetle. remove all the unneeded stuff from open face retainers. but you will need to drill the drain hole in backing plate. it lets seepage out rear of backing plate instead of out tube to edge of brake drum. |
NOTE the differences in stacking assembly in the 2 below....... the bearing depth is the same but the routing of the oil seepage is totally different..
1968 caps are the same stack up as 65 up... BUT THE BEARING DEPTH IS DIFFERENT...
[/quote]
[b]
_________________
aka Ken {o\!/o}
Its your vehicle- stop askin' for approval-do what YOU like for cryin' out loud
Better to roll em' how you want and wear em' out-than lettin' em' rot out
Its about the going not the showing
Rebuilt to drive not decorate
WANTED: Local Eatin' Joints, Triple D for TheSamba contributions here http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=570510
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Laxkraap
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Joined: October 20, 2013
Posts: 141
Location: Stl,mo
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| Posted: Thu Feb 06, 2014 2:53 pm Post subject: |
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Volkswagnut
Thanks for the clarification.
Until i can remove the bearing I'm going to 'assume' i have 67 end castings,because of the bearing cap i have. To fix the problem as bill may wrote i'll have to use 65-67 bearing caps and drill a hole in the backing plate for drain in the caps mentioned.
Is it safe to say that i won't be able to use 40mm brake shoes without changing to 68 tubes/end castings and all associated hardware?
Laxkraap |
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VOLKSWAGNUT
Fastest VW Belt Changer
Joined: October 14, 2007
Posts: 11056
Location: Flippin' a Belt........ .... Off-n-On ... NC USA
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| Posted: Thu Feb 06, 2014 3:08 pm Post subject: |
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| Laxkraap wrote: |
Until i can remove the bearing I'm going to 'assume' i have 67 end castings,because of the bearing cap i have. To fix the problem as bill may wrote i'll have to use 65-67 bearing caps and drill a hole in the backing plate for drain in the caps mentioned.
Is it safe to say that i won't be able to use 40mm brake shoes without changing to 68 tubes/end castings and all associated hardware?
Laxkraap |
To make it as operational as possible... for 30mm shoes..
Assuming (uh oh) you have 67 tubes, you would need 65-67 shrouded bearing caps (and the internal deflector) and drill your backing plate for a weep hole..
Now for the shoes...
Inpect the adjusters to see if they are straight or angled as I mentined a few pages ago.. If they are straight use 58-64 30mm shoes, if they are angled use 65-67 30mm shoes, and the conversion drum.
As for using 40mm shoes... (sigh) again... YOU MUST USE 1968 and newer backing plates... These will work fine with 67 tubes and even 1966 and earlier tubes.. To make it work.....again ..Assuming (uh oh again) you have 67 tubes. you would need 65-67 caps (and deflectors). 1968 Backing plates, 40mm shoes and the conversion drums. The 68 backing plates already are drilled for the weep hole...
Now.... OFF the record....You can use the bearing caps you have... right now... the only note of caution is WHEN the seal seeps (and most do a little) ... it will seep into the drum and onto the shoes... Thats the biggest problem... and concern...
Not saying its right....I've driven several pre 65 cars missing their drum slingers...thousands of miles... If the oil seal is doing its job... it seldom leaks anything..
The deflectors are a precaution in case the seal fails... They are designed to keep the shoes dry and free of oil.
Bearing depth....
The key is... if you measure the depth of the cap bearing surface... and you measure the protruding portion of the seated bearing in its tube.. those 2 measurements should be very close..
FYI..The (empty) bearing surface in the tub and the (empty) bearing surface in the cap together measure bearing width... or at least very close....
Since you dont want to fool with the bearing... and we dont know what tube end casting you truly have,.... as mentioned by a few of us... make sure you bearing is seated and measure whats sticking out and measure your cap bearing surface.. Thats the best you can do..
Many convert pre 65 cars to to 65-67 style caps and deflector and drill the hole.. as its a better system than the old "drum slingers"..
I hope all that made some sense...  And I hope you're writing this shit down...
_________________
aka Ken {o\!/o}
Its your vehicle- stop askin' for approval-do what YOU like for cryin' out loud
Better to roll em' how you want and wear em' out-than lettin' em' rot out
Its about the going not the showing
Rebuilt to drive not decorate
WANTED: Local Eatin' Joints, Triple D for TheSamba contributions here http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=570510
Search "VOLKSWAGNUT" on YouTube since you cant watch a "certain" BELT change video round here
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Laxkraap
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Joined: October 20, 2013
Posts: 141
Location: Stl,mo
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| Posted: Thu Feb 06, 2014 3:56 pm Post subject: |
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Printed and saved!
It isn't that 'i don't want to fool with the bearing' it's that I haven't been able to get it out yet and it's 7 degrees in st.louis. A little freakin cold to be messing with bearings,but i'll get it.
Thanks
Laxkraap |
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EVfun
Samba Member
Joined: April 01, 2012
Posts: 5481
Location: Seattle
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| Posted: Thu Feb 06, 2014 5:17 pm Post subject: |
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Excellent summary on how to properly combine different year axle parts in a safe fashion.
The only thing I would add is that the backing plates he currently has are '58 to '64. If he finds angle slot adjusters he should install strait slot adjusters, the proper wheel cylinders and assemble '58 to '64 brakes. The wheel cylinders and adjusters for the angle slot '65-up brakes have wide slots in the adjusters and wheel cylinders and VW added 4 shoe resting pads on the backing plate. With the older brakes the narrow slots in the adjusters and wheel cylinder allow them to be the other 2 resting points for each shoe. You included a good shot of the difference at the bottom of this post. The 2 extra shoe rest pads near the wheel cylinders are easy to see, the 2 by the adjuster a little harder.
The other answer is to obtain '68-up backing plates and assembling late model brakes with 40mm wide shoes. It is really the better answer with a buggy, and he already bought new drums that will allow the wider brakes to fit.
| VOLKSWAGNUT wrote: |
| Laxkraap wrote: |
Until i can remove the bearing I'm going to 'assume' i have 67 end castings,because of the bearing cap i have. To fix the problem as bill may wrote i'll have to use 65-67 bearing caps and drill a hole in the backing plate for drain in the caps mentioned.
Is it safe to say that i won't be able to use 40mm brake shoes without changing to 68 tubes/end castings and all associated hardware?
Laxkraap |
To make it as operational as possible... for 30mm shoes..
Assuming (uh oh) you have 67 tubes, you would need 65-67 shrouded bearing caps (and the internal deflector) and drill your backing plate for a weep hole..
Now for the shoes...
Inpect the adjusters to see if they are straight or angled as I mentined a few pages ago.. If they are straight use 58-64 30mm shoes, if they are angled use 65-67 30mm shoes, and the conversion drum.
As for using 40mm shoes... (sigh) again... YOU MUST USE 1968 and newer backing plates... These will work fine with 67 tubes and even 1966 and earlier tubes.. To make it work.....again ..Assuming (uh oh again) you have 67 tubes. you would need 65-67 caps (and deflectors). 1968 Backing plates, 40mm shoes and the conversion drums. The 68 backing plates already are drilled for the weep hole...
Now.... OFF the record....You can use the bearing caps you have... right now... the only note of caution is WHEN the seal seeps (and most do a little) ... it will seep into the drum and onto the shoes... Thats the biggest problem... and concern...
Not saying its right....I've driven several pre 65 cars missing their drum slingers...thousands of miles... If the oil seal is doing its job... it seldom leaks anything..
The deflectors are a precaution in case the seal fails... They are designed to keep the shoes dry and free of oil.
Bearing depth....
The key is... if you measure the depth of the cap bearing surface... and you measure the protruding portion of the seated bearing in its tube.. those 2 measurements should be very close..
FYI..The (empty) bearing surface in the tub and the (empty) bearing surface in the cap together measure bearing width... or at least very close....
Since you dont want to fool with the bearing... and we dont know what tube end casting you truly have,.... as mentioned by a few of us... make sure you bearing is seated and measure whats sticking out and measure your cap bearing surface.. Thats the best you can do..
Many convert pre 65 cars to to 65-67 style caps and deflector and drill the hole.. as its a better system than the old "drum slingers"..
I hope all that made some sense... And I hope you're writing this shit down... |
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| Wildthings wrote: |
| As a general rule, cheap parts are the most expensive parts you can buy. |
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Dale M.
Samba Member
Joined: April 12, 2006
Posts: 20379
Location: Just a tiny bit west of Yosemite Valley
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| Posted: Thu Feb 06, 2014 5:27 pm Post subject: |
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Have you given thought as to using early bearing caps and the fact the cap hits bearing long before the cap clamps the backing plate solid to axle housing... Even with bearing cap at full torque it may not actually clamp backing plate and allow it to shift around and maybe eventually shear all the bolts as well as elongate the holes in backing plate .... Bearing seat depth in cap is critical to how much bearing sticks out of axle housing and the depth of bearing fit into cap including the thickness of backing plate....
The depth (difference) in bearing cap is to insure full clamping force to bearings AND the backing plate.... To shallow of bearing seat depth in early cap will clamp bearing but probably NOT backing plate.....
It is critical to have correct bearing cap for backing plate and axle tube/bearing configuration...
IF this space is more than (as in not equal to or less then) thickness of backing plate you have additional problem... This is why its crucial to have correct bearing cap...
Its not just a oil seep issue......
Dale
_________________
“Fear The Government That Wants To Take Your Guns" - Thomas Jefferson.
"Kellison Sand Piper Roadster" For Street & Show.
"Joe Pody Sandrover" Buggy with 2180 for Autocross (Sold)
============================================================
All suggestions and advice are purely my own opinion. You are free to ignore them if you wish ... |
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VOLKSWAGNUT
Fastest VW Belt Changer
Joined: October 14, 2007
Posts: 11056
Location: Flippin' a Belt........ .... Off-n-On ... NC USA
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| Posted: Thu Feb 06, 2014 7:00 pm Post subject: |
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| EVfun wrote: |
Excellent summary on how to properly combine different year axle parts in a safe fashion.
The only thing I would add is that the backing plates he currently has are '58 to '64. If he finds angle slot adjusters he should install strait slot adjusters, the proper wheel cylinders and assemble '58 to '64 brakes. The wheel cylinders and adjusters for the angle slot '65-up brakes have wide slots in the adjusters and wheel cylinders and VW added 4 shoe resting pads on the backing plate. With the older brakes the narrow slots in the adjusters and wheel cylinder allow them to be the other 2 resting points for each shoe. |
Perfect addition, the narrower slots in cylinders and staight adjusters do the work of the shoe bosses of the 65-68.. excellent point!
| Dale M. wrote: |
The depth (difference) in bearing cap is to insure full clamping force to bearings AND the backing plate.... To shallow of bearing seat depth in early cap will clamp bearing but probably NOT backing plate
It is critical to have correct bearing cap for backing plate and axle tube/bearing configuration...
IF this space is more than (as in not equal to or less then) thickness of backing plate you have additional problem... This is why its crucial to have correct bearing cap...
Its not just a oil weep issue......
Dale |
Exactly on the spot Dale
Damn.. if all this dont get this thing straight.... Nothing will.
_________________
aka Ken {o\!/o}
Its your vehicle- stop askin' for approval-do what YOU like for cryin' out loud
Better to roll em' how you want and wear em' out-than lettin' em' rot out
Its about the going not the showing
Rebuilt to drive not decorate
WANTED: Local Eatin' Joints, Triple D for TheSamba contributions here http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=570510
Search "VOLKSWAGNUT" on YouTube since you cant watch a "certain" BELT change video round here
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Laxkraap
Samba Member
Joined: October 20, 2013
Posts: 141
Location: Stl,mo
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| Posted: Fri Feb 07, 2014 12:58 am Post subject: |
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| Dale M. wrote: |
Have you given thought as to using early bearing caps and the fact the cap hits bearing long before the cap clamps the backing plate solid to axle housing... Even with bearing cap at full torque it may not actually clamp backing plate and allow it to shift around and maybe eventually shear all the bolts as well as elongate the holes in backing plate .... Bearing seat depth in cap is critical to how much bearing sticks out of axle housing and the depth of bearing fit into cap including the thickness of backing plate....
The depth (difference) in bearing cap is to insure full clamping force to bearings AND the backing plate.... To shallow of bearing seat depth in early cap will clamp bearing but probably NOT backing plate.....
It is critical to have correct bearing cap for backing plate and axle tube/bearing configuration...
IF this space is more than (as in not equal to or less then) thickness of backing plate you have additional problem... This is why its crucial to have correct bearing cap...
Its not just a oil seep issue......
Dale |
Dale m
Your reading to much into yht photo.the bearing caap was on to keep me from pulling on the axle,finger tight maybe.there is no backing plate in the picture,so i can show the drum install limit
Laxkraap
Last edited by Laxkraap on Fri Feb 07, 2014 1:03 am; edited 1 time in total |
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Laxkraap
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Joined: October 20, 2013
Posts: 141
Location: Stl,mo
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| Posted: Fri Feb 07, 2014 12:59 am Post subject: |
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Volkswagnut
Here they go again |
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VOLKSWAGNUT
Fastest VW Belt Changer
Joined: October 14, 2007
Posts: 11056
Location: Flippin' a Belt........ .... Off-n-On ... NC USA
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| Posted: Fri Feb 07, 2014 6:18 am Post subject: |
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| Laxkraap wrote: |
Volkswagnut
Here they go again |
No... We are all just very observant... and trying to help you.
You've received great FREE information from everyone thats contributed..
Take that information and start making some measurements and observations.... and.... write down what you find for future reference..
_________________
aka Ken {o\!/o}
Its your vehicle- stop askin' for approval-do what YOU like for cryin' out loud
Better to roll em' how you want and wear em' out-than lettin' em' rot out
Its about the going not the showing
Rebuilt to drive not decorate
WANTED: Local Eatin' Joints, Triple D for TheSamba contributions here http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=570510
Search "VOLKSWAGNUT" on YouTube since you cant watch a "certain" BELT change video round here
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Laxkraap
Samba Member
Joined: October 20, 2013
Posts: 141
Location: Stl,mo
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| Posted: Fri Feb 07, 2014 6:42 am Post subject: |
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Sorry guys,
I've been told i have a 'dry' sense of humor.Hopefully i'll get the bearing out this weekend.I do appreciate all the advise,time and great info and didn't mean to offend anyone
Laxkraap |
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Dale M.
Samba Member
Joined: April 12, 2006
Posts: 20379
Location: Just a tiny bit west of Yosemite Valley
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| Posted: Fri Feb 07, 2014 10:14 am Post subject: |
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| Laxkraap wrote: |
| Dale M. wrote: |
Have you given thought as to using early bearing caps and the fact the cap hits bearing long before the cap clamps the backing plate solid to axle housing... Even with bearing cap at full torque it may not actually clamp backing plate and allow it to shift around and maybe eventually shear all the bolts as well as elongate the holes in backing plate .... Bearing seat depth in cap is critical to how much bearing sticks out of axle housing and the depth of bearing fit into cap including the thickness of backing plate....
The depth (difference) in bearing cap is to insure full clamping force to bearings AND the backing plate.... To shallow of bearing seat depth in early cap will clamp bearing but probably NOT backing plate.....
It is critical to have correct bearing cap for backing plate and axle tube/bearing configuration...
IF this space is more than (as in not equal to or less then) thickness of backing plate you have additional problem... This is why its crucial to have correct bearing cap...
Its not just a oil seep issue......
Dale |
Dale m
Your reading to much into yht photo.the bearing caap was on to keep me from pulling on the axle,finger tight maybe.there is no backing plate in the picture,so i can show the drum install limit
Laxkraap |
No, I am not.... The picture was captured as a example of where a gap may occur and what the problem may be if proper bearing cap is not used, NOT WHAT ACTUAL SITUATION IS....... You are reading to much in the example, by assuming I am accepting them as actual fact when I am only using graphic as a example where a problem may occur and my posting is just a "general comment" ...
Guess I have nothing more to offer....... Every body else knows so much more than I do and this thread has gone way beyond sane limits with everybody opinions and only half right comments.... So my help is not needed.....
Bye-bye...
Dale
_________________
“Fear The Government That Wants To Take Your Guns" - Thomas Jefferson.
"Kellison Sand Piper Roadster" For Street & Show.
"Joe Pody Sandrover" Buggy with 2180 for Autocross (Sold)
============================================================
All suggestions and advice are purely my own opinion. You are free to ignore them if you wish ... |
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Laxkraap
Samba Member
Joined: October 20, 2013
Posts: 141
Location: Stl,mo
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| Posted: Fri Feb 07, 2014 1:31 pm Post subject: |
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Dale m
I must have misunderstood what you were showing me/us.i do value your opinion as well as the others who have contributed to the thread.if i came across as a know-it-all that was Not my intention.
I can here looking for help and got more than anyone could expect and for that i am greatfull,even if it doesn't seem as though i am
Thanks all
Laxkraap
Edited because i didnt't proof read |
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VOLKSWAGNUT
Fastest VW Belt Changer
Joined: October 14, 2007
Posts: 11056
Location: Flippin' a Belt........ .... Off-n-On ... NC USA
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| Posted: Fri Feb 07, 2014 3:13 pm Post subject: |
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| Dale M. wrote: |
Guess I have nothing more to offer....... Every body else knows so much more than I do and this thread has gone way beyond sane limits with everybody opinions and only half right comments.... So my help is not needed.....
Bye-bye...
Dale |
Which is why I tried to check out last page..... 
Dale..its went well beyond sane.... off to chase the Road Runner now...
_________________
aka Ken {o\!/o}
Its your vehicle- stop askin' for approval-do what YOU like for cryin' out loud
Better to roll em' how you want and wear em' out-than lettin' em' rot out
Its about the going not the showing
Rebuilt to drive not decorate
WANTED: Local Eatin' Joints, Triple D for TheSamba contributions here http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=570510
Search "VOLKSWAGNUT" on YouTube since you cant watch a "certain" BELT change video round here
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Lip Ripper
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Joined: September 14, 2011
Posts: 22
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| Posted: Wed Aug 13, 2014 11:42 am Post subject: 1967 rear drum |
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I have read all of this and there is a ton of great info. I have my wife's apart now and based on the info at hand she has a 67 transaxle and tubes. I noticed that the drum is a 113 501 615A which is supposed to be the 57 and earlier type. Do I need a different drum? (Recurring seal leak is the problem). And also, the washer number 5 in the diagram; it has a taper on the inside. Does this taper go inward or outward?
Stacey |
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VOLKSWAGNUT
Fastest VW Belt Changer
Joined: October 14, 2007
Posts: 11056
Location: Flippin' a Belt........ .... Off-n-On ... NC USA
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| Posted: Wed Aug 13, 2014 11:48 am Post subject: |
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Both inner #5 and outer #10 spacers... the tapered or radiused inner edge goes inward.
If you'll notice the portion of the axle where that #5 is placed its radiused the same way..
When you place #5 on the axle... it created the perfect flat area for the ball bearing to sandwich up against.
#10 captures the oring against the washer #7..
.
_________________
aka Ken {o\!/o}
Its your vehicle- stop askin' for approval-do what YOU like for cryin' out loud
Better to roll em' how you want and wear em' out-than lettin' em' rot out
Its about the going not the showing
Rebuilt to drive not decorate
WANTED: Local Eatin' Joints, Triple D for TheSamba contributions here http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=570510
Search "VOLKSWAGNUT" on YouTube since you cant watch a "certain" BELT change video round here
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Lip Ripper
Samba Member
Joined: September 14, 2011
Posts: 22
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| Posted: Wed Aug 13, 2014 11:55 am Post subject: Wrong number mentioned on spacer |
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Number 7 is the one in question; my err.
Stacey |
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