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webwalker 
Samba Member
Joined: January 26, 2006
Posts: 2803
Location: Mount Laurel, NJ
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 Posted: Wed Feb 12, 2014 3:09 pm Post subject: |
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| kreemoweet wrote: |
| If we can't get proper brake shoes, then we'll all have to park our busses permanently, ya know ... |
You did see this, right?
Also, there is work going on Down Under to make contemporary Subaru brake components viable replacements for 40 year old VW ones. So there is a light at the end of the tunnel that is not a train.
M
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"Consistent maintenance with quality products is the cheapest warranty you'll ever need."
1977 CE1 Transporter Deluxe, Subaru EJ22, Skills Cooling, Steedle HD 091 w/ GuardT .82 4th
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curtis4085
Samba Member
Joined: July 22, 2011
Posts: 4806
Location: Colorado
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| Posted: Wed Feb 12, 2014 3:47 pm Post subject: |
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| webwalker wrote: |
| kreemoweet wrote: |
| If we can't get proper brake shoes, then we'll all have to park our busses permanently, ya know ... |
You did see this, right?
Also, there is work going on Down Under to make contemporary Subaru brake components viable replacements for 40 year old VW ones. So there is a light at the end of the tunnel that is not a train.
M |
All helpful information for the masses.
Cannot wait to see these retrofitted Subaru brakes!
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kreemoweet
Samba Member
Joined: March 13, 2008
Posts: 3899
Location: Seattle, WA
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| Posted: Wed Feb 12, 2014 8:20 pm Post subject: |
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Now have in my possession a set of Bendix relined shoes, #R421. The webs appear to be correct - the metal is a hell of a lot stouter than
the two brands I've discussed earlier. However, the lining itself seems rather thin - 5.5 mm thick, compared to 6.8 mm on the TCM and 6.25 on
the Beck/Arnley. Guess you can't have everything.
Seems ToolBox was correct: the day has now arrived where you can't just order new shoes and get the right stuff with any reliability. Every bus
owner will now have to keep an extra set of shoes on hand to send out for relining. Of course, there will be lots of bus drivers not catching on to
this for a while, driving around with thoroughly messed-up rear brakes
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ToolBox
Samba Member
Joined: January 27, 2004
Posts: 3439
Location: Detroit, where they don't jack parts off my ride in the parking lot of the 7-11
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| Posted: Thu Feb 13, 2014 11:43 am Post subject: |
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| kreemoweet wrote: |
Now have in my possession a set of Bendix relined shoes, #R421. The webs appear to be correct - the metal is a hell of a lot stouter than
the two brands I've discussed earlier. However, the lining itself seems rather thin - 5.5 mm thick, compared to 6.8 mm on the TCM and 6.25 on
the Beck/Arnley. Guess you can't have everything.Seems ToolBox was correct: the day has now arrived where you can't just order new shoes and get the right stuff with any reliability. Every bus
owner will now have to keep an extra set of shoes on hand to send out for relining. Of course, there will be lots of bus drivers not catching on to
this for a while, driving around with thoroughly messed-up rear brakes |
How can you be sure the 2 F'd shoe sets had the right thickness of material? I do not hava a FMSI book near me or I could get the specs for the linings. Bendix is/was part of Honeywell but if the regulators OK it it is being sold to Federal Mogul. |
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kreemoweet
Samba Member
Joined: March 13, 2008
Posts: 3899
Location: Seattle, WA
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| Posted: Thu Feb 13, 2014 9:24 pm Post subject: |
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| ToolBox wrote: |
| How can you be sure ... |
Not sure at all ... The lining just seemed a deal thinner than what I have usually had on all my VW's. How are we to be sure the FMSI data is correct? I suppose
an error there could be the root cause of all these bad brake shoes, no?
_________________
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'68 bug: seized by the authorities
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Hoody
Samba Member
Joined: November 28, 2007
Posts: 1948
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| Posted: Thu Feb 13, 2014 11:31 pm Post subject: |
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| Thanks for re-posting that link from Toolbox Webwalker! I missed it and that looks very promising! |
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SGKent
Samba Member
Joined: October 30, 2007
Posts: 41031
Location: Citrus Heights CA (Near Sacramento)
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| Posted: Fri Feb 14, 2014 8:32 am Post subject: |
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| kreemoweet wrote: |
| ToolBox wrote: |
| How can you be sure ... |
Not sure at all ... The lining just seemed a deal thinner than what I have usually had on all my VW's. How are we to be sure the FMSI data is correct? I suppose
an error there could be the root cause of all these bad brake shoes, no? |
remember that when drums are new their ID is smaller than once they have worn and been turned. The brake shoes when new are normally designed for new drums. Often relined and aftermarket shoes are made for worn drums. This means that the arc of the shoe has to fit the larger drum. To do this the shoes are arced. Arcing removes material. You may be seeing the results of arcing shoes. Although it is not done anymore as drums are rare on cars, brake shops used to measure the drums then arc the shoes to fit the specific shoes. Once asbestos was discovered to cause cancer, many shops stopped arcing so the shoes were pre-arced at the factory as a guess what the customer might need.
This you-tube has a short clip from an all purpose machine shop that shows shoes being relined and arc'd.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dIe9q95DscQ
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germansupplyscott
Samba Member
Joined: May 22, 2004
Posts: 7094
Location: toronto
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| Posted: Tue Feb 18, 2014 9:46 pm Post subject: |
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i am pretty sure i have figured out what's gone wrong. the brake manufacturers are using the metal carrier for the S503 shoes which are for a Vanagon. they are close but not correct. the upper springs on the Vanagon are different hence a different location for the upper holes, and the lower spring hole of the Vanagon shoe is smaller. i matched up some incorrectly made new S421 shoes and some correct S503 shoes are the carriers are identical, and the new (incorrect) S421 shoes are incorrect when compared to old stock shoes.
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kreemoweet
Samba Member
Joined: March 13, 2008
Posts: 3899
Location: Seattle, WA
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| Posted: Tue Feb 18, 2014 10:20 pm Post subject: |
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Ah, interesting. So, would there be any other explanation for what seems to be multiple different mfr's using the very same incorrect
pattern for the center web of these shoes, than faulty information in the above-mentioned "FMSI" book? I never knew there
were published specs for ANY of the old VW parts. I figured VW probably burned the whole lot to forestall some Ralph-Nader-type jerkoff from
using any of it as ammo in some bogus lawsuit.
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'68 bug: seized by the authorities
'71 kombi: not yet seized by the authorities
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ToolBox
Samba Member
Joined: January 27, 2004
Posts: 3439
Location: Detroit, where they don't jack parts off my ride in the parking lot of the 7-11
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| Posted: Wed Feb 19, 2014 10:58 am Post subject: |
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| kreemoweet wrote: |
Ah, interesting. So, would there be any other explanation for what seems to be multiple different mfr's using the very same incorrect
pattern for the center web of these shoes, than faulty information in the above-mentioned "FMSI" book? I never knew there
were published specs for ANY of the old VW parts. I figured VW probably burned the whole lot to forestall some Ralph-Nader-type jerkoff from
using any of it as ammo in some bogus lawsuit. |
They are using the incorrect shoe tables because they have crap QC. Aftermarket parts do not have to meet any of the same DOT, FMVSS, SAE .... standards that parts used to manufacture vehicles have to meet.
I just did a benchmarking program on aftermarket pads for the current Ford Edge. Performance was poor in the noise, wear and fade tests I ran. The quality of the part was also very poor, thinner friction material, thinner back plate, poor insulator performance.
FMSI is the Friction Materials Standards Institute, a trade association.
| Quote: |
History & Mission of FMSI
In 1948 the Friction Materials Standards Institute was founded as a trade association of automotive aftermarket friction manufacturers. Since that time it has performed a very valuable service for the automotive aftermarket – the creation of a standardized part numbering system for brakes and clutch facings.
Primary Mission:
Maintain and enhance this standardized part numbering system for all on highway vehicles in use in North America.
Not only do the manufacturing members have the right to use this system, but their customers also have that right. From manufacturer through retailer / installer one part number is used as the standard and as a common language – the FMSI number.
Secondary Mission:
Disseminate to its members such scientific, engineering, technological, statistical and other relevant information as it may obtain in the public domain pertaining to brake linings, clutch facings, and the industry.
In most industries each company must perform this service by themselves at substantial cost. Then they must coordinate that part number with their customers at additional expense to both. Because the members support and cooperate in this effort, the entire industry has benefitted at a relatively low cost.
Membership in FMSI is open to any manufacturer of friction and related products covered by the trademarked FMSI and FMS part numbers. Other participants in this industry may be eligible for licensee membership.
Both FMSI® and FMS® are registered trademarks of the Friction Materials Standards Institute. |
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VWDog
Samba Member
Joined: June 24, 2005
Posts: 617
Location: Ladysmith, BC
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| Posted: Thu May 15, 2014 4:31 pm Post subject: |
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An oldish thread, but I have run into the same shoe problem. Bought from our local euro shop they have the same hole problems as kreemoweet's. I got mine to fit before reading this thread. The spring is under more load by about 1/2" total stretch, but I managed to get them into place(yes, some effort as mentioned previously). Is this bad for the spring(premature possible parting)?
I don't recall this being broached so, my question is, can these new shoes be adapted to fit by drilling a new hole in the proper location for the upper spring? Or is this dangerous? The holes would be close together and the "pointy" end of the spring would possibly have the chance of slipping into the original hole.
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Tcash
Samba Member
Joined: July 20, 2011
Posts: 12844
Location: San Jose, California, USA
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| Posted: Thu May 15, 2014 5:33 pm Post subject: wrong rear brake shoes |
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Question,
If you bought the Vanagon Spring & hardware kits? Could you install them on the incorrect S503 carriers and have self adjusting rear brakes?
Vanagon
77 Bay
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dtvw
Samba Member
Joined: May 12, 2014
Posts: 13
Location: australia
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| Posted: Thu May 15, 2014 5:55 pm Post subject: |
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| You know, once upon a time you could buy the lining and then rivet the shoes yourself. The holes are on the back of the old shoes. Here they send them away for about a week for somebody else to glue them on. and then charge you double. |
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VWDog
Samba Member
Joined: June 24, 2005
Posts: 617
Location: Ladysmith, BC
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| Posted: Fri May 16, 2014 10:03 am Post subject: Re: wrong rear brake shoes |
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| Tcash wrote: |
Question,
If you bought the Vanagon Spring & hardware kits? Could you install them on the incorrect S503 carriers and have self adjusting rear brakes?
Vanagon
77 Bay
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Really is that what we are left with, potentially trying to "upgrade" to a self adjusting Vanagon type set up?
BTW that pic of a 77 Bay's brakes looks like they have used the B/A shoes I got. Compare the hole for the upper spring and how close the spring end is to the inside curve of the shoe. It looks more similar to the Vanagon pic above. Is this your pic and if so, do you remember the name of the shoe manufacturer? Was the assembly more difficult to put together?
I notice on the 77 Bay the clip is not present to hold the spring wire at the back. How important is this clip? Seems to me if people were getting uppity about the lower spring in vs out then this clip might be important too?
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ToolBox
Samba Member
Joined: January 27, 2004
Posts: 3439
Location: Detroit, where they don't jack parts off my ride in the parking lot of the 7-11
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| Posted: Fri May 16, 2014 10:28 am Post subject: |
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| dtvw wrote: |
| You know, once upon a time you could buy the lining and then rivet the shoes yourself. The holes are on the back of the old shoes. Here they send them away for about a week for somebody else to glue them on. and then charge you double. |
.
And aspestose was cool, fuel had lead, DDT was sprayed by the ton... |
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kreemoweet
Samba Member
Joined: March 13, 2008
Posts: 3899
Location: Seattle, WA
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| Posted: Fri May 16, 2014 12:50 pm Post subject: |
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Those allegedly '77 brakes are using the bogus shoes that caused me to start this thread. You can see clearly
that the shape of the web near the top is not that of a late bay brake shoe (as well as the misplaced spring holes).
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jtauxe
Samba Member
Joined: September 30, 2004
Posts: 5780
Location: Los Alamos, New Mexico
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| Posted: Fri May 16, 2014 12:53 pm Post subject: |
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I have just completed a rear brake job with new shoes on a '79 Transporter.
I checked out the shoes at BusDepot, and the pic they displayed clearly showed a pair of shoes, one with the integral e-brake lever. I ended up ordering from AutohausAZ since they were cheaper and had free shipping, and they had the exact same photo showing the shoes.
When the shoes arrived, there was no integral e-brake lever. I called to complain, and AutohausAZ made good on it by comping me the mounting pins and horseshoe clips so that I could use my old levers after drilling them out of the old shoes. I alerted them to the misleading pic, and they changed it. I checked with BusDepot as well, and they had the same problem (shoes coming in with no brake lever) so they also changed their pic.
So - bottom line - ask before you buy if the e-brake lever is install on the shoes. If not, be sure to get the pin and clip (and spring washer) so that you can use your old lever.
At least the holes for the springs are in the right place! 
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"Travelling in a fried-out Kombi, on a hippie trail, head full of zombie..." - Colin Hay and Ron Strykert
http://vw.tauxe.net
1969 Transporter, 1971 Westfalia, 1976, 1977, 1976, 1977, 1971, 1973, 1977 Westfalias,
1979 Champagne Sunroof, 1974 Westfalia Automatic, 1979 Transporter, 1972 Sportsmobile, 1973 Transporter Wild Westerner, 1974 Westfalia parts bus, 1975 Mexican single cab *FOR SALE*, 1978 Irish 4-door double cab RHD
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Tcash
Samba Member
Joined: July 20, 2011
Posts: 12844
Location: San Jose, California, USA
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| Posted: Fri May 16, 2014 1:15 pm Post subject: |
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vwdog wrote; Is this your pic and if so, do you remember the name of the shoe manufacturer?
Not my pics, got them out of the gallery.
Tcash |
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Bughaus
Samba Member
Joined: March 22, 2004
Posts: 50
Location: Tulsa
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| Posted: Mon Aug 11, 2014 10:04 am Post subject: |
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Just to add a note to an older thread, Enduro recently went out of business.
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http://www.Bughaus.com |
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kreemoweet
Samba Member
Joined: March 13, 2008
Posts: 3899
Location: Seattle, WA
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| Posted: Tue Dec 08, 2015 2:05 pm Post subject: Re: Warning: Bogus Late Bay Brake Shoes |
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AutoHausAz is now showing a pic of Vanagon brake shoes on the late bus shoe online page. I emailed them to see what was going on, and I gues they don't
want to discuss it over the webz, so goodbye AHAz.
CIP1 is showing real bus shoes on their website, so I foolishly ordered them, and got Vanagon shoes.
This screwup seems like a very difficult thing for parts vendors to grasp. It takes endless back-and-forth to finally get a return authorization.
I guess that's to be expected from people selling parts they know nothing about. Even Bus Depot has stopped using VW part numbers, and
lists the shoes under ref. #421, so even if they have the correct image on their website, you really can't tell what you're getting.
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