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flomulgator
Samba Member
Joined: March 07, 2013
Posts: 950
Location: Leavenworth, WA
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 Posted: Thu Oct 08, 2015 8:22 am Post subject: |
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Sodo I didn't realize Harbor Freight sold tesseracts. Cheap too! Can I use it to communicate physics observations in a meaningful way? 
Extremely nerdy jokes aside, I had two thoughts:
1. The SmallCar directions ( https://smallcar.com/rear-brake-instructions.html ) note that the spring at the end of the cable should be clipped. On my cable, and at least Jon Slider's too, the spring is still there. Could this have a negative affect on the screw?
2. The PO installed these brakes so I don't know if the e-brake was adjust via the correct method originally, but I'm also wondering if it takes 20-30 pumps to move a new pad into position, if the e-brake isn't used for long periods of time and the pad is worn down, could the e-brake no longer be able to self adjust into position?
I was hoping to sneak this in before yanking the transmission but give that it is no longer looking like a quick cable swap I'm probably going to kick this can down the road again and focus on the more important stuff.
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She's built like a steakhouse, but she handles like a bistro! |
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Sodo
Samba Member
Joined: July 06, 2007
Posts: 9603
Location: Western WA
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| Posted: Thu Oct 08, 2015 9:12 am Post subject: |
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| flomulgator wrote: |
| Can I use it to communicate physics observations in a meaningful way? |
ANY kind of meaningful communication is a relief at this point! I have not confirmed the Harbor Freight tool fits this Audi __ caliper.
I recommend to leave some spring coils on the cable that don't coil-bind at full parking brake actuation. When the cable is NEW, fresh, clean, and when the disc brake spring is new, shaft lubed, non-corroded,... maybe the OEM spring is enough. I'm going to speculate the Audi caliper spring is sized for a simpler cable arrangement than the gangly contraption it faces in a Vanagon conversion. I'm tempted to add a couple extension springs to each side of the balancer, and maybe a ziptie or two to support the cable droop.
I think you need as much spring as you can get for down the road, when the lube dries out (cable AND caliper) also for freezing temperatures too. As long as it doesn't coilbind, it's useful IMHO.
I am more than amazed, with how many of these brakes there are on Vanagons, that no definitive parking brake adjustment procedure has made its way onto TheSamba. It's been YEARS. The obstructionism that just occurred in the last 5 posts suggests the info may simply be buried in carefully composed non-answers. If anyone can find a direct link to it, it will be appreciated by many folks who are flogging these parking brakes.
I will work on the brakes in a week or two. Will certainly appreciate... if a member has posted the info by then.
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'90 Westy EJ25, 2Peloquins, 3knobs, pressure-oiled GT mainshaft, filtered, cooled gearbox
'87 Tintop w 47k 53k, '12 SmallCar EJ25, cooled filtered gearbox
....KTMs, GasGas, SPOT mtb |
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?Waldo?
Samba Member
Joined: February 22, 2006
Posts: 9752
Location: Where?
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| Posted: Thu Oct 08, 2015 9:42 am Post subject: |
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| I don't have rear disc brakes currently on a Vanagon, but seem to have very similar rear brakes on my '02 Jetta Wagon. It is a similar weight vehicle and has an EXCELLENT e-brake. It would have no trouble holding the vehicle on a 30%+ grade. I recently redid the rear brakes and used this kit. One of the adapters fits the caliper pistons perfectly. In the Mk4 manual it specifically states to use the *foot brake* to take up the slack, not the e-brake. It then states how to adjust the e-brake separately afterward. I followed the recommended procedure when doing the brakes on my Jetta and the e-brake works perfectly. |
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insyncro
Banned
Joined: March 07, 2002
Posts: 15086
Location: New York
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| Posted: Thu Oct 08, 2015 10:09 am Post subject: |
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Bottom line is that those who have excellent rear disc parking brakes have abandoned the Vanagon cables and have gone with custom and adjustable cables, not to get rid of slop, but for adjustment of the the e brake action at the caliper.
Signalocity made metal spacer tubes and used the Vanagon cables, not sure if they were 2wd or Syncro, but he has made stock work much better.
Other than Signal, I do not recall anyone else extremely satisfied with spacing stock cables.
The calipers are really basic, if they have not been working in 6 years properly, here lies problem number one.
Numerous other owners have found out that letting them just sit not properly adjusted has cause more issues than just getting them freely moving again.
Some found that the calipers they let sit without the proper e Brake function needed to be replaced for the hold that they wanted.
Read the SC instructions.
They are a good starting point.
Than reread a couple of rear disc brake threads...each covers adjustment and each has success stories of those with custom cables...starting with Alaric and soon after followed by me.
Also look at the dates of these posts.
Nothing has changed since and I still mount and adjust them the same way I did years ago.
Three clicks on a later model e brake handle and my H6 Syncro would need a tow downhill 
Again, plenty of happy rear disc brake van owners around.
And if rear disc aren't your thing, the hold of Syncro 16 rear drums are hard to beat.
Finding those parts in the US is challenging, but a few of us have them and have imported spares for our vans once we felt the e Brake action. |
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insyncro
Banned
Joined: March 07, 2002
Posts: 15086
Location: New York
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| Posted: Thu Oct 08, 2015 10:14 am Post subject: |
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| Andrew A. Libby wrote: |
| I don't have rear disc brakes currently on a Vanagon, but seem to have very similar rear brakes on my '02 Jetta Wagon. It is a similar weight vehicle and has an EXCELLENT e-brake. It would have no trouble holding the vehicle on a 30%+ grade. I recently redid the rear brakes and used this kit. One of the adapters fits the caliper pistons perfectly. In the Mk4 manual it specifically states to use the *foot brake* to take up the slack, not the e-brake. It then states how to adjust the e-brake separately afterward. I followed the recommended procedure when doing the brakes on my Jetta and the e-brake works perfectly. |
Absolutely correct.
Using the foot pedal is part of the proper adjustment procedure.
This is also why I feel power bleeding is necessary to have good e brake contact.
If you have ANY air in the lines or caliper, the foot actuated brakes will work fine and some even prefer the feel of them with a little air in the system, but at the cost of the function of the e Brake. |
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flomulgator
Samba Member
Joined: March 07, 2013
Posts: 950
Location: Leavenworth, WA
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| Posted: Thu Oct 08, 2015 10:37 am Post subject: |
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| insyncro wrote: |
And if rear disc aren't your thing, the hold of Syncro 16 rear drums are hard to beat.
Finding those parts in the US is challenging, but a few of us have them and have imported spares for our vans once we felt the e Brake action. |
Warning: Severe thread and forum tangent ahead!
I've actually wondered about the decision to offer rear discs as an upgrade that requires some hub work as opposed to slap-on big drum kits and I figured it all boiled down to easy new parts availability for vendors.
My pre-van adventure rig that still pokes around on the fringes of my life was/is a diesel suburban. About 4 years ago I (for gearing reasons) I swapped the axles from the 1500 series to the 2500 series. The front discs and axles were exactly the same, but everything in the rear is bigger and beefier, including the rear drums. These larger 2500 drums take advantage of the larger 16" wheel required and have a larger diameter, but are also significantly wider. They net gain of stopping power for the vehicle with just a rear drum upgrade was actually pretty noticeable!
(we now return to your regularly-scheduled van content)
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Sodo
Samba Member
Joined: July 06, 2007
Posts: 9603
Location: Western WA
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| Posted: Fri Oct 09, 2015 10:08 am Post subject: |
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Thats a funny thought, mount a drum brake that;s just BIGGER. From a truck.
Many modern vehicles have a disc brake that has a drum for the parking brake (both). A drum is self energizing. And imagine the monkey-business that must go on inside a disc brake to have it self-adjust as a parking brake.
I already have the Audi brakes (at great and possibly foolish expense) so my preference is to make them work.
Monkey-business inside the caliper is exactly what we have here, and no posted procedure how to manage it. In general the forum wisdom is to buy cables (or recommend cable) and continue to ignore the procedure for adjusting it. Some members know it and won't post it. Seems smallcar would simply post the procedure as it affects their customer satisfaction bigtime. The last 2 lines of their instructions are exactly as it was 6 years ago very sparse. Customers want to ditch their product and try something else.
InSyncro thanks for leaking out the tip that air in the brake line can affect parking brake adjustment. Nice to have more info than the 100% cable focus.
I'll try to dig into it in the weeks ahead. 6 years late is 14% better than 7 years late. Anybody know the partnumber of the smallcar Audi brake caliper? Or what year/model Audi it came from? I knew this years ago but have forgotten.
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'90 Westy EJ25, 2Peloquins, 3knobs, pressure-oiled GT mainshaft, filtered, cooled gearbox
'87 Tintop w 47k 53k, '12 SmallCar EJ25, cooled filtered gearbox
....KTMs, GasGas, SPOT mtb
Last edited by Sodo on Fri Oct 09, 2015 10:31 am; edited 4 times in total |
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termuehlen 
Samba Member
Joined: May 02, 2012
Posts: 993
Location: Redwood City
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| Posted: Fri Oct 09, 2015 10:13 am Post subject: |
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| Anybody know the partnumber of the smallcar brake caliper? |
Don't know the part number but its supposed to be a 1991 Audi 200 Quattro 20v caliper.
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Sodo
Samba Member
Joined: July 06, 2007
Posts: 9603
Location: Western WA
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| Posted: Fri Oct 09, 2015 10:19 am Post subject: |
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Yeah that was it, thanks. Found rear brake disc discussion (26 pages) HERE, but I have to get off the dang computer and get out of the house.
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'90 Westy EJ25, 2Peloquins, 3knobs, pressure-oiled GT mainshaft, filtered, cooled gearbox
'87 Tintop w 47k 53k, '12 SmallCar EJ25, cooled filtered gearbox
....KTMs, GasGas, SPOT mtb |
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flomulgator
Samba Member
Joined: March 07, 2013
Posts: 950
Location: Leavenworth, WA
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Signalocity
Samba Member
Joined: February 13, 2012
Posts: 573
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| Posted: Mon Oct 12, 2015 8:33 am Post subject: |
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| insyncro wrote: |
Signalocity made metal spacer tubes and used the Vanagon cables, not sure if they were 2wd or Syncro, but he has made stock work much better.
Other than Signal, I do not recall anyone else extremely satisfied with spacing stock cables. |
I am using the factory drivers side Syncro cable and 2WD cable for the passenger side.
The one thing that I keep trying to stress, that seems to be overlooked, is that the distance between the brake handle and the caliper is nothing more than a manual connection. whether you have a factory rod and factory cables spaced, factory rod and custom cables, or custom cables all the way ... it's still just a manual connection between the handle and the caliper. If you take one van and install all 3 types, the overall length of the pull is going to be exactly the same on all 3 variations, to engage the caliper pivot accurately. The way it functions is exactly the same on all 3 variations, just by different means. If you have that length adjusted correctly on all 3 set ups, any of them will work.
You pull the handle, it pulls the pivot arm on the caliper. That is really all there is too it. If that is not working, it is going to be one of 3 things. Mechanically speaking that is, obviously it needs to be bled properly. Either the overall length is not adjusted correctly, the caliper springs are too weak to actuate the pivot arm correctly (i noted the part #'s for new ones in my "how to" post, as I had this very issue), or the caliper itself needs attention.
With two people, if you pull the handle, and it smoothly (rod pulls both cables at the same time without twisting at the bracket or slack on one side and not the other) operates both pivot arms to their full rotation, the pull action is not to blame. If you operate the pivot arms on the calipers by hand and they pull themselves back without any hesitation or stutter, the springs are not to blame. That just leaves the caliper.
As I have mentioned before and possibly elsewhere lol, I think the problem people where having using the stock cables, were either getting the spacers the right length, or the plastic spacers provided with kits began compressing, or collapsing all together. |
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Sodo
Samba Member
Joined: July 06, 2007
Posts: 9603
Location: Western WA
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| Posted: Mon Oct 12, 2015 8:58 am Post subject: |
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Thanks for the thoughtful post, but I'm not following some things.
There is the cable portion of the actuation. It's simple - it's just a cable. Tension = force on the pivot arm. Period. New cable, old cable new return springs old return springs. All same.
The pivot arm could be stuck, that could reduce the brake pad force. If thats the case it needs to be freed up.
Inside the caliper there is monkey-business that allows the mechanical screw-actuation of the handbrake to advance, and follow the (hydraulically actuated) piston outward as the brake pads wear. This process MAY have an initialization procedure, and if so, I'd like to find that "official" procedure. Smallcar's instructions haven't changed since 2009 and they are sparse (1 or 2 short sentences). It must be in a Chiltons, does anybody have a Chiltons for Audi 200 or similar caliper?
My caliper pivot seems to run up against an abrupt internal stop before it encounters the (visible) external rotational stop, and before it exerts pad pressure to the disc. It comes up hard, like it runs out of travel internally. It does not "feel" like it's increasing disc pad pressure. Diving the car 10mph if I pull the brake handle HARD, it feels perfect, a few clicks. But the braking action is barely detectable. I can assure you that sticking my foot out like Fred Flintstone, would stop the car faster. I'm not exaggerating. There is no pad pressure.
It's brutally obvious to me that the problem is beyond the elementary subject of "cable tension".
I wish I had the calipers off NOW, while posting, but I can't. It seems like "my R-side caliper (when re-manufactured) got an L-side pivot arm" or something like that. Or a procedural adjustment or initialization error. There is other discussion in a thread I started oin 2009 (Rear disc = NO parking brake)
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'90 Westy EJ25, 2Peloquins, 3knobs, pressure-oiled GT mainshaft, filtered, cooled gearbox
'87 Tintop w 47k 53k, '12 SmallCar EJ25, cooled filtered gearbox
....KTMs, GasGas, SPOT mtb
Last edited by Sodo on Mon Oct 12, 2015 9:30 am; edited 1 time in total |
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Signalocity
Samba Member
Joined: February 13, 2012
Posts: 573
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| Posted: Mon Oct 12, 2015 9:26 am Post subject: |
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| Sodo wrote: |
My caliper pivot seems to run up against an abrupt internal stop before it encounters the (visible) external rotational stop, and before it exerts pad pressure to the disc. It comes up hard, like it runs out of travel internally. It does not "feel" like it's increasing disc pad pressure. Diving the car 10mph if I pull the brake handle HARD, it feels perfect, a few clicks. But the braking action is barely detectable. I can assure you that sticking my foot out like Fred Flintstone, would stop the car faster. I'm not exaggerating. There is no pad pressure.
It's brutally obvious to me that the problem is beyond the elementary subject of "cable tension". |
It sounds like you are on the right track.
| Sodo wrote: |
| I wish I had the calipers off NOW, while posting, but I can't. It seems like "my R-side caliper (when re-manufactured) got an L-side pivot arm" or something like that. Or a procedural adjustment or initialization error. |
Honestly, that wouldn't surprise me at all. My rebuilt calipers had shot springs and one was missing the bleeder. |
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flomulgator
Samba Member
Joined: March 07, 2013
Posts: 950
Location: Leavenworth, WA
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Howesight
Samba Member
Joined: July 02, 2008
Posts: 3274
Location: Vancouver, B.C.
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| Posted: Mon Oct 12, 2015 10:24 pm Post subject: |
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My URS4 and my wife's URS6 both feature the rear disc brake units discussed in this thread. Both those cars are very well maintained by yours truly. I find that the brake balance and performance in driving to be good.
The e-brakes, however, are marginal, especially for e-brake sliding manoeuvers, which I am fond of doing in appropriate circumstances (like when doing my Ken Block fantasy driving). For holding on steep hills when parking these big Audi's, the rear discs are underwhelming, to say the least. And this is with a cable system designed for this car and these brakes.
Since I often end up parking, at least temporarily, in steep spots in my Syncro, I prefer the very strong e-brake performance of well-adjusted rear drums.
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