Steering column problem

[andygere]

I've been working through various systems on my recently purchased Manx Clone buggy, and I've found a problem with the steering column and shaft that I'm not happy with, but not quite sure how to correct. The column is a late model Beetle unit with a turn signal and key ignition. The pan is a '72 and I'm guessing this may have come from the original donor car as well. Here's a photo of it from top and bottom:

top view

bottom view

The column is mounted to the dash unit with what looks like the stock clamp. This is pretty secure. It goes through the firewall and just sort of hangs there. When I turn the wheel, the steering shaft wobbles around inside the column, as the column top rocks up and down on the fulcrum created by the column clamp under the dash.

It seems like there are 2 things going on. First, there needs to be another physical support for the column tube, either at the firewall or from an independent member such as the Berrien Steering Column Support kit. http://vwparts.aircooled.net/Berrien-Steering-Colu...ld-kit.htm Note that the dash is really solid, and the upper portion of the column is firmly mounted. It's hard to tell from pictures how far down the column the Berrien system mounts. It might be somewhat of a duplicate of what I've already got with the very strong under dash clamp.

The second is that there is nothing on my buggy centering the steering shaft within the lower part of the steering column. Should there by some type of bearing or bushing in there? The photo below shows the steering shaft off center in the column tube during part of a steering wheel rotation. The red arrows point to the edges of the shaft, and the blue dotted line approximates the center line of the column tube.

The photo below shows how the column penetrates the firewall. There is some type of reinforcing to the right, but it' s not attached to the column. There's an identical part (which looks like a steel tube welded to a 1" angle iron) on the forward side of the firewall as well.

firewall from inside buggy

When the wheels are straight ahead, the steering shaft centers in the column tube, and it's a straight shot to the rag joint and steering box.

I've considered a muffler clamp and angle iron support near the firewall, but I'm worried that without solving the second problem (see below), it might not really do the job. It seems like there may be something intended for this purpose already on both sides of the firewall, but for the life of me I can't figure out how it was intended to support the column tube.

Any suggestions on how to solve this problem are welcomed.

[EVfun]

[andygere]

EVfun, can you tell me how you installed the bearing on the bottom end of the column? From what I've read there is some sort of clip that holds it in, what does it look like and what parts did you use? Any pictures would be great.

[EVfun]

There is a picture of the installed bearing and steering shaft extension here. I used a section of thin wall pipe in place of the spring because the '62-'67 shaft used a spring at the top to put some preload on the bearing -- I didn't need one at both ends. I used a shaft collar to hold the it in place. I'm not sure exactly how this would work with later columns, you might need the spring at the bottom to preload the bearing.

Other types of bearings could be used, you just need to match up the I.D. and O.D. Even a poly bushing should work well.
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[Dale M.]

How about something like this "dimensioned to fit"...

http://www.kartek.com/Product/1168/Urethane-Bushings.aspx

Dale
_________________
“Fear The Government That Wants To Take Your Guns" - Thomas Jefferson.

"Kellison Sand Piper Roadster" For Street & Show.
"Joe Pody Sandrover" Buggy with 2180 for Autocross (Sold)
============================================================
All suggestions and advice are purely my own opinion. You are free to ignore them if you wish ...

[herkster]

I used this for my "TUBE"...it also can be used with a boot....it worked for me and I backed it up with a sandwich on the fiberglass. As EV mentioned it really doesn't require another bearing. Just stabilize the tube.

http://www.speedwaymotors.com/Ididit-2400800010-Ad...,6210.html

http://www.speedwaymotors.com/Ididit-Steering-Column-Floor-Mount-Boot,36033.html

[andygere]

I had looked at the column support that herkster suggested, and a couple of variants of it. For sure I think it would do the job, but the angle iron with tube on the firewall (see the last photo in my initial post) would interfere with mounting. I could remove that bracket (and the one on the opposite side of the firewall that matches it) but I'm not sure what it's purpose is. It seems like it was made to somehow support the column, but a clamp or U-bolt was never installed? It's not drilled, and it's pretty tough to get in there to see it. Anybody seen one like it on another buggy? Dale's suggestion to fit a bushing or bearing was my first inclination, and still might be the easiest short term fix. Keep the ideas coming.

[clonebug]

I used a 2-3 inch piece of flat metal bent in the middle at the same angle as the steering column going through the firewall. I then bolted it with one bolt to the dash and two worm clamps to the column and the other side to the firewall with two clamps to the column.
It's been like that for almost ten years without a problem.

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[GPM]

I had a similar problem but a fellow buggy mate gave me the perfect solution.

He works for a company installing point of sale equipment. One of the things he does is mount terminal screens on those post type things. Except they are tubes when you get to look at them. Tubes about 1-2mm bigger than the diameter of the beetle outer column tube.

Cut the flat mount base off the bottom, then cut the end of the tube to the right angle, then weld the plate back on. This then sits over the drive shaft tube, with the flat plate against the shell bulkhead. Drill 4 holes, and bolt through.

Can't find a pic of it in situ at the mo, I'll keep looking

[jeromevw312]

I had the same exact problem with my buggy. My steering column was originally mounted to a bar attached to the hood, and flexed and slopped all over the place.

Up top, I used the Berrin steering column support bar you mentioned above. Works well, much more rigid up top, but the fact that it uses a hose clamp to hold the column down was a little poorly designed in my opinion.

For the bottom, I got one of the bearings used on the top of the steering shaft on the bottom. Only problem is it just kinda sits in there on top, so I had to hammer a dimple into the steering tube to hold it in place.

Overall, the setup works excellent, very happy with it, rigid no problems.

However, I plan to build a crossbar type mount off the front hoop when I add a roll cage to replace the Berrin support. Just rather have it mounted to metal rather than fiberglass (the berrin support goes across the body bolted into the fiberglass sides). At that point I will build a stronger mount than the hose clamp

Sorry, no pics right now

[andygere]

Thanks for all the good ideas guys. Does anybody know if the Berrien support bar can be installed while the hood and windshield are attached to the buggy? It's a little disappointing to learn that the column attaches to it with a hose clamp, but maybe that's all it needs? More and more I am feeling like I need a little welder to fab up little bars and brackets to solve these kinds of problems. So much for buying a "completed" buggy that was ready to drive. So close to being on the road, but still a ways away...

[EVfun]

On my first buggy I supported the bottom of the steering column instead of putting a bearing in the bottom of the tube. The support was just a piece of 3/4 inch wide, 1/8 inch thick, flat steel stock. I bent it with a vise and hammer so one side could rest on the firewall and the other side the bottom of the tube. About a 1 inch length rested on the firewall with a hole in the middle of that length and a 6mm bolt with a fender washer and locknut held it to the firewall. About a 2 inch length of it rested along the bottom of the steering column tube and I held it to the tube with a stainless steel hose clamp. There is not a lot of force on that end of the tube, so this simple support was more than enough to stabilize the steering column.

I see Clonebug described the same thing -- and included a photo.
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[Dale M.]

I have made clamps like one below to stabilize column at "firewall".... Its no more than a "U" type muffler clamp with a tab welded on it to mount to body....

(no this pic is not from my build)

Can be mounted on tank side or passenger compartment side of fire wall... By bending tab, if can be a "any angle" mount... Think one I made for race car had longer tab with two bolts for better stability....

Not sure what angle brackets were all about in OP build, unless original builder had good intention of making stabilizing bracket and just never finished it....

IF problem bothers you just fix it, yes its a miserable hard place to get to and you will not like it at all... But remove steering wheel and gear shift and crawl in there and do it..... Get access to front side by removing left front wheel.... Makes it as easy as you can for a miserable job....In the end though you will be happier.... Helps to have a wrench savvy helper once you are under dash...

Dale
_________________
“Fear The Government That Wants To Take Your Guns" - Thomas Jefferson.

"Kellison Sand Piper Roadster" For Street & Show.
"Joe Pody Sandrover" Buggy with 2180 for Autocross (Sold)
============================================================
All suggestions and advice are purely my own opinion. You are free to ignore them if you wish ...

[Dale M.]

[clonebug]

If you have a butchered 6 inch jagged hole where the steering tube goes through then yes....a couple hose clamps might not suffice.
Of all the weird things the PO of my buggy did....jagged steering column holes was not one of them.
I was able to install the tube and shaft and the holes were the correct size or maybe an 1/8-1/4 inch larger so a medal pad and a couple clamps have worked well for many years.
YMMV
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[andygere]

Thanks for all the great advice, I really appreciate the time you guys are taking to help me solve this problem. I think in the short term, a version of Dale's fix is the first thing I'll try, and I've already purchased the muffler clamp that fits nicely around the column. The hole is oversize and a little jagged, but it's not a horrible mess. The firewall is not completely flat in that area, and I suspect the tub builder molded in a convex bulge (looking from the inside) to provide some stiffness in that area. I strongly suspect the black angle iron with tube welded to it was an attempt by the original builder (or maybe even the kit maker) to provide some means to secure the column. It's long enough to distribute the load over a large enough part of the firewall that I think it will do the job. I'll need to pull the driver's seat and front wheel to get in there, but I think a minor mod to that part at the welding shop to accept the muffler clamp might be the short term fix. I'm not anxious to pull the hood right now since the paint is really quite nice, and it looks like none of the wiring was rigged to make that job easy. Some time in the future when I pull the hood, I'll re-glass the hole, and maybe put some structural reinforcement inside the glass laminate and do the job right.

I'll definitely look up the auto cross guys down the coast. I don't know the first thing about it, but it looks like a lot of fun, and I'm stoked to meet some other buggy owners in the area. Too bad the access to the dunes down in Marina has been closed for quite a while, that must have been fun back in the day.

[Dale M.]

If I remember correctly it was 1969 or 1970 when they closed Marina dunes....

Dale
_________________
“Fear The Government That Wants To Take Your Guns" - Thomas Jefferson.

"Kellison Sand Piper Roadster" For Street & Show.
"Joe Pody Sandrover" Buggy with 2180 for Autocross (Sold)
============================================================
All suggestions and advice are purely my own opinion. You are free to ignore them if you wish ...

[andygere]

Dale, it was long before my time, whenever they were closed. Here's a neat little site with some history and pictures of some "water pumpers" that used to run there. http://www.bob2000.com/dunebug.htm

[Dale M.]

[andygere]

Here's the update on this problem. I built a simple firewall column tube clamp as Dale suggested, and it did a fine job of securing the bottom of the column tube. What it did not do was solve the problem. The steering continued to have "tight spots" and the wheel end of the column still strained against the under dash clamp.

I became convinced that the steering shaft itself was bent, and that's exactly what I found. I pulled the column and shaft assembly today, and discovered that the shaft had been crudely welded at some point.

The shaft is also bent where the solid shaft mates with the collapsible section.

It's hard to believe that the PO drove it this way, but he did. When I bought the buggy, it had been stored in a garage for several years and one of the brake drums was frozen, so I didn't discover this problem until I got it home and started working on it. I'm glad I did, since the rag joint has taken quite a beating from the eccentric steering shaft. Although it has a VW logo, it does not appear to be a reinforced fabric joint, and appears to be made of rubber, urethane or some other material. In any case, it was near failure.

Some of the cracks go nearly all the way through the joint, and I'm sure it would have blown out before long.

Now I need to find a steering shaft to replace my butchered up unit.