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Clutch and Pressure Plate Questions - force 1600N
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JeffL
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PostPosted: Mon Mar 31, 2014 5:02 pm    Post subject: Clutch and Pressure Plate Questions - force 1600N Reply with quote

Still working on m my Alken with the 1958 1600N and 644 transmission

The cable is stiff. I read some articles and information on a site that sells really strong clutch levers down at the pedal.

On mine it seems they doubled the height of the fork. Maybe to create more of a mechanical advantage (pulling the cable further to match the stroke of the trans, is it different). I found out it does not let the clutch pedal come the whole way out. It hits on the interior clutch tube and site back about 2 inches to the brake pedal.

I'm looking for input to get one of the reiforced clutch shafts and cable but I' afraid I might not be able to push the pedal down. In the other picture you can see the two pulleys that creat the bowden tube effect. I have no idea on how it shifts going down the road yet.

Maybe the 356 pressure plate is less than high performance VW pressure plates so more of my pressure comes from the cable routing, although it is pulleys and not binding.

Not many 356 trans mounted in a Beetle pan so I can't find much feedback on this.

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Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.

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JeffL
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PostPosted: Mon Mar 31, 2014 6:16 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Here is a shot without the cable. The lever arm points almost straight up.

In the second photo this is with all of the slack out of the system and ready to engage the pressure plate. I am loosing a lot of travel.

In the attached drawings I see there is a plate part number 1, how do I tell if I need this or if I have the right pressure plate? The amount the lever moves seems to be a lot before engaging at all, maybe this is why the longer lever was added at the front pedal?

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ensys
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PostPosted: Tue Apr 01, 2014 11:03 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

While far from an expert in this application combination, it seems to me that there is (or should be) a problem with the cable, and very possibly with the throw out bearing being used.

It should be evident that when hooked up, the T.O. lever is out of position and would, under normal conditions, indicate a disengaged clutch if the usual T.O. bearing was being used.

One wonders if elimination of at least the pulley closest to the T.O. lever (if not both) wouldn't help things some.

Or perhaps a longer cable would be appropriate.

It probably wouldn't hurt to check to make sure about the T.O. bearing as well.

Don't know if this helps, but it's all I can offer.
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PostPosted: Wed Apr 02, 2014 12:11 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

No offence Jeff but that looks like a real Rube Goldberg set up. Porsche's also use boden tubes, why not just set it up stock and get rid of all that monkey motion. Those plastic pulleys won't last long either. Back in the 60's and 70's the big time VW drag racers used Porsche transaxles because they were stronger. Some of those guys are still around, like Ron Fleming of FAT, you could contact one of them and see what they did. Most of them are really nice guys and are always willing to talk about the old days.
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Jacks
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PostPosted: Wed Apr 02, 2014 1:29 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

^^^ That's the way we did it back then
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roy mawbey
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PostPosted: Wed Apr 02, 2014 4:10 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I still run my original 716 trans in my 59 A. The previous 644 you have I presume in your 58 car was still running with the normal 6 spring clutch and 180mm flywheel?

It was possible to order a 9 spring clutch for heavier driving. I changed my early Hausermann diaphragm 180mm clutch back to a 6 spring version with the suitable correct release bearing.

Does your car have the 180mm flywheel and corresponding 6 or 9 spring clutch?

I guess if items have been changed you will have measure. There are considerable differences in the clutch items and flywheels over the 356 life span.

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JeffL
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PostPosted: Wed Apr 02, 2014 4:30 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

All great input, thanks.

I had two other also say this was a common setup in the day. Rube.... is what I thought too but it is layed out quite well for how many changes have to be made to get this to work. The front mounting arms of the transmission are cut off and a Beetle mount fabricated.

Once this is done the standard linkages and tubes don't work. There is no room between the VW frame horns to make it happen.

One change I made was to bring the trans further ahead. The axles were at the swing arm limits. Even with the holes clearance more it had too much toe in. When I moved it ahead I had to take out a spacer at the front and shorten the hockey stick to have the right shifter movement again. This does not really modify the cable geometry though.


I am test fitting the body again and will pull it off in a few weeks to drop the engine.

I feel that I simply have to "pull the arm too far forward" to get the throw out bearign to engage. What you see in the photo is how much the cable has to be tightened to the point of "normal" engagement. This is why I was thinking something could be missing like the plate, part number 1 in the photo. While I ordered a "standard" new throwout bearing based upon a stock 1600N, I really have to understand now what pressure plate I have to assure nothing is mismatched. I was just looking to has the "standard" setup as it does not appear that the engine is modified from stock "externally".

Pretty much when the previous owners 356 rusted out he had a shop in the 70s transfer all of this over to the Beetle chassis for a Bradley GT. So, I'm sorting back through it to see what works and to improve it if needed.

The back pulleys are some type of hard bakelite type plastic. I'd like to change them to aluminum or steel if I can match some up.

This transaxle has the clutch lever arm that is welded on the end. I fired the engine back up last night and with the car on blocks shifted through all of the gears OK.

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PostPosted: Wed Apr 02, 2014 11:01 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Jack, do you mean you did it the way Jeff's pictures are showing or another way ?
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PostPosted: Wed Apr 02, 2014 11:12 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

We used a bowden tube and stock VW clutch pedal. I don't understand those goofy mods.
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PostPosted: Wed Apr 02, 2014 11:50 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Jacks wrote:
We used a bowden tube and stock VW clutch pedal. I don't understand those goofy mods.


I interpreted your response different. The standard Porsche bowden tube does not look like it would clear the transmission and VW forks. I would certainly try that if you know it would work and clear.

Does anyone have a picture of the standard cable routing? I have to get to the front of the nose cone to get down the tunnel. I've not owned a 356 so I haven't worked on that portion of the car or have one to study.

I can take a picture of this if it helps. I'm certianly open to this type of input (the reason for the post) but the feedback I got before was that the standard tube would not clear and this is why a separate mount with pulleys were made. If all I need it the standard Porshe bowden tube and mount I'd definitely go with that.

There still could be another issue with the positioin of the lever arm at the transmission and until I understand what pressure plate I have I can't add more there yet. This could be the reason the clutch pedal "hook" for the cable was lengthened, to take up the extra travel in the back. If that is what is happening.
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PostPosted: Wed Apr 02, 2014 11:51 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

dsrtfox wrote:

Where do you live ?


I live in Hudson, Ohio.
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PostPosted: Wed Apr 02, 2014 2:59 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

It's been a very long time, but I think we used a VW bowden tube with the standard 356 bracket on the trans. The 356 bowdon tube is longer than needed. We may have moved the chassis tube over a bit at the rear. A few pictures of the modified 356 nose cover and rear chassis area would help. Show the throw out bearing area in the bell housing too.
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PostPosted: Wed Apr 02, 2014 4:30 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Jacks wrote:
It's been a very long time, but I think we used a VW bowden tube with the standard 356 bracket on the trans. The 356 bowdon tube is longer than needed. We may have moved the chassis tube over a bit at the rear. A few pictures of the modified 356 nose cover and rear chassis area would help. Show the throw out bearing area in the bell housing too.


Thanks for the help. It will be a week or two before I pull the body again and drop the engine to examine the clutch.

Here is a picture that shows the clutch tube coming out of the 58 Beetle Tunnel. Next is a side veiw of the front mount. Third is the top veiw of the chassis before I tore it down. It shows the "naked" clutch cable routed under the throttle cable pulleys.

I put a picture of a VW bowden tube here. It seems to attach lower then the 356 location. The VW looks like 10:30 and the 356 split at 11:00 and 356 tunnel at 11:30 as an estimate.

The picture below was from the parts book to show the cables and tubes of the 356 split case transmission and then the tunnel trans. I looks like there are two mounts for the 356 bowden tube. The tunnel mount looks like the anchor is closer to the engine side. The split trans seems to have the bowden tube as part of the cable and the tunnel trans has a separate bowden tube.

I like the idea of a standard Beetle bowden tube if it clears the transmission. If the support arms don't interfere, the clutch tube distanace to the correct anchor point (split vs tunnel trans) could work.

I see that the split trans has a clutch lever like a VW. The tunnel pictured looks like it takes a clevis hookup. I wonder if my 58 trans was converted to an earlier lever arm? I checked the serial number on the trans and it was correct for a 58.

Added example of what appears to be later 356 bowden tube. I asked for the lenght and see there is a VW Beetle tube and later Bus tube. Maybe between the three I can get the right length and snake it around the transmission.

Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.

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356 ABC listed bowden tube.

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Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


Pre 60 VW crash box bowden tube anchor, will not work because it mounts to the top rib on not differential flange.

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Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.

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Last edited by JeffL on Wed Apr 02, 2014 8:01 pm; edited 2 times in total
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PostPosted: Wed Apr 02, 2014 7:07 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Between the 356 and early VW there's probably a dozen different length boden tubes. I asked where you lived because if you were close to me you could have dived under my 56 356A to check it out. there's probably a 356 guy close who would let you do the same...
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PostPosted: Wed Apr 02, 2014 7:38 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

dsrtfox wrote:
Between the 356 and early VW there's probably a dozen different length boden tubes. I asked where you lived because if you were close to me you could have dived under my 56 356A to check it out. there's probably a 356 guy close who would let you do the same...


I like how you think!

The VW ones are pretty inexpensive so I am going to order a Beetle and Bus one to trial, to see if I can even get it routed up to the tunnel. I have to find one of the mounts for on a 356 Trans, anyone have a spare? The part numbers are the same but one looks stamped steel and the other cast, maybe that is the only difference.

I did ask a couple of sellers of the other tubes what lengths they have and this will also help me to close in on it.

Just found this image, the 356 bowden runs below the mount, I will have to run above it. Certainly the 356 would mount and in these photos does look like the stock VW location. I think Jacks memory is pretty good.
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PostPosted: Wed Apr 02, 2014 9:57 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I still need to see pix of the bell housing/release bearing and the clutch pressure plate that you want to use. Good job on posting pix so far. You are on the right track Cool Don't buy anything yet. Let's get this sorted out
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PostPosted: Wed Apr 02, 2014 10:10 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Try the classified and e-bay for the mount...
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PostPosted: Wed Apr 02, 2014 10:27 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I tend to agree that before investing in guesses, you need to separate the eng. and gearbox to see what T.O. bearing/P.P. combination lies between. The position of the T.O. arm at "contact" clearly indicates a problem. In normal application, this arm would be only a few degrees forward of its at-rest position at contact with the P.P.
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PostPosted: Wed Apr 02, 2014 11:06 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Get this: http://www.thesamba.com/vw/classifieds/detail.php?id=1509611
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PostPosted: Thu Apr 03, 2014 4:18 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Jacks wrote:
Get this: http://www.thesamba.com/vw/classifieds/detail.php?id=1509611


Thanks I will order the item today.

I will pull the engine ensys, I just have to fabricate some other items like heater flex tubes and such before I pull the body again. Stay tuned, I'm sure I'll need some insight to spot the problem once I have it apart.

Again, great help, thank you.
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