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Clutch and Pressure Plate Questions - force 1600N
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DBCouper
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PostPosted: Thu Apr 03, 2014 5:29 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

With that many problems, I think I'd be tempted to try an aftermarket VW hydraulic clutch linkage system. Question

Dave
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JeffL
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PostPosted: Thu Apr 03, 2014 6:48 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

DBCouper wrote:
With that many problems, I think I'd be tempted to try an aftermarket VW hydraulic clutch linkage system. Question

Dave


It actually works fine but a little stiff. I think the prior owner put a few thousand miles on the setup before it was parked in the late 70s. With some of the recent input I think they have me on to a better setup and possibly an issue with the pressure plate/clutch issue from the original build.

I will restore the engine as the last step when the interior is being completed. I'm working to stay with parts that were available in 58 when the Alken body was first built on the Beetle chassis.

I have the transmission mount for the bowden tube coming in now. When I mount it I will then determine what length bowden tube will work better (356 or VW) and see if I can route it in.

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JeffL
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PostPosted: Sat Apr 05, 2014 3:48 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I couldn't resist, so we pulled the body back off today. It is a 180 mm clutch and pressure plate assembly. Likely the original flywheel and throw out bearing.

Does someone have a chart of the meaurements that I need to determine if the flywheel is still in specification. It needs to be resurfaced, some bluing and I just want to understand if it is setup right to adress the issue with the clutch arm position. If all 3 sufaces have been cut it could be getting further away from the throwout bearing. Looks like a standard 24mm deep and 4 mm of clearance to the gland nut level.

With the pressure plate mounted there is about 63 mm from the ring that takes the pressure and the machined part of the engine block where the transmission mounts. If the flywheel has be cutt maybe I am at/past a limit?

In measureing the new throwout bearing it is 3 mm thicker from the bottom of the saddle where it contact the pressure plate. The woudl allow the arm to come back some.

I will follow up with what dimensions I have but I don't have any 356 books on specifications, only VW.

Throwout bearing arms look good. The throwout bearing has a 7/58 date and 4/66 date on F&S pressure plate TYP KS 180D. The clutch has a VW part number 111 141 031 2.

The clutch was overall 9 mm thick with 1.6 to 1.8 mm remaining on the rivet heads.

Flywheel

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Clutch lever arm in rest postiion, throw out bearing removed, arms resting against housing.

Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


I was able to push a wire easily through the mounting pins for the forks so it does not look like anything slipped or is bent. Even before I removed the bearing it was loose and even the clips were loose so nothing was binding.

Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


This is the positon of the arm when it just engages the pressure plate with the new sachs 644 16 305 throw out bearing, bought it some time ago.

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New throw out bearing and old.

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Clutch and pressure plate assembled.
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Last edited by JeffL on Sat Apr 05, 2014 7:25 pm; edited 4 times in total
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Jacks
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PostPosted: Sat Apr 05, 2014 4:58 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I would like to see more pix. With the release bearing and clutch cable removed, push the lever that the cable attaches to towards rear of the car, in the most upright position and show a pic of the arm, and the TOB fork. Also a side and rear view of the TOB. 61mm sounds OK for a used clutch. I wouldn't worry about a few blue spots on the flywheel, as long as it's relatively flat. Minor grooves are not a problem as long as they symmetrical. A clear closer pic of the fw would help. This is a busy area and there's a lot to do but we will start with this. At our shop we fix 356's for other shops when they have trouble. Oh yeah, please don't buy any more clutch parts until we figure out exactly what you need.
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JeffL
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PostPosted: Sat Apr 05, 2014 7:06 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Jacks wrote:
I would like to see more pix. With the release bearing and clutch cable removed, push the lever that the cable attaches to towards rear of the car, in the most upright position and show a pic of the arm, and the TOB fork. Also a side and rear view of the TOB. 61mm sounds OK for a used clutch. I wouldn't worry about a few blue spots on the flywheel, as long as it's relatively flat. Minor grooves are not a problem as long as they symmetrical. A clear closer pic of the fw would help. This is a busy area and there's a lot to do but we will start with this. At our shop we fix 356's for other shops when they have trouble. Oh yeah, please don't buy any more clutch parts until we figure out exactly what you need.


Thanks Jacks I updated the pics above and put some captions on. I think I got what you were looking for to help. I had the bearing before when I bought all the brake hardware. If you click on the pictures they open a little larger.

It actually was 63 mm from the pressure plate to the engine mating surface, I mounted two screws in my level and adjusted them until it was touching both side evenly to get a better reading.
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Jacks
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PostPosted: Sat Apr 05, 2014 7:43 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Ok. What type of clips do you have that holds the TOB to the fork? The U type or the @ type. Also, try to move the TOB shaft fore and aft. How much play is there on each end? If it's more than just a perceptible amount, the bushings and/or shaft is worn beyond service life. If so, it will allow false free play in the pedal.
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JeffL
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PostPosted: Sun Apr 06, 2014 7:39 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Jacks wrote:
Ok. What type of clips do you have that holds the TOB to the fork? The U type or the @ type. Also, try to move the TOB shaft fore and aft. How much play is there on each end? If it's more than just a perceptible amount, the bushings and/or shaft is worn beyond service life. If so, it will allow false free play in the pedal.


Here is a link to the type of clip I have, kind of looks like the @ symbol. Nothing binds with the throw out bearing or the clips with the lever retracted or extended.

I pulled the clutch lever return spring back so I could more easily determine wear. There is some wear either on the shaft or a bushing. I held the fork back inside, like it was pushing on the pressure plate, and then pulled down the lever. I could get about 1/4 inch of travel on the tip of the lever arm. The right side bearing I couldn't detect any movement.

Would this amount concern you Jacks? It seems to me there is much more distance lost in getting the thow out bearing to the pressure plate as indicated by the non-loaded arm at about 11:00 moving to 10:00 just to close up the gap.

If you suggest I pull the shaft to inspect, is there a tool to pull out the dowl pins and hook/unhook the clutch spring? I've done this on a VW but it has the circlips and not as much spring tension.

Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


On the left is the clutch lever position fully retracted without throw out bearing, right image is cable adjusted so that throw out bearing is just touching the pressure plate (I brought the face of the throw out bearingi out to 63 mm from the machined edge of the transmission to match what I measured on the engine).

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Jacks
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PostPosted: Sun Apr 06, 2014 8:53 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

1/4 inch is far too much movement. The shaft must remain parallel to the flywheel/clutch for proper operation. There are 2 roll pins on each side of the fork, a small one INSIDE of the larger one. drive the small one out first, then the larger one. The yoke will have to slide off. Don't be surprised if the yoke is rusted to the shaft. Use penetrant there. You will have to remove the starter and drive the roll pin that holds the shaft in place on the far right end through the transmission housing. Pry the bottom end of the spring off it's perch to relieve tension. Use a unworn area of the shaft as a gauge to see how worn the bushings are. One or both will likely need replacement. Get this kind of clip for TOB: http://www.thesamba.com/vw/classifieds/detail.php?id=1584187
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PostPosted: Sun Apr 06, 2014 11:20 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

You know how you want to hear back from the doctor but don't really want to hear back from the doctor......... I was hoping Jacks would OK with the play in the shaft.

Wasn't that bad to remove. Took about an hour. I had to sacrifice some allen wrenches as punches. Everything was agreeable to come apart even the forks from the shaft.

I used the shaft section between the forks and bearing as the reference and zeroed my calipers.

The shaft at the lever end has about 7 thou wear and about 2 thou wear on the right side. The most wear is to the front and rear of the pin as Jacks suggested in looking for play. The bushing on the lever side was about 14 thou (not sure how much clearance would have been at new) but I had 20 thou total play then on the left side. This is what allowed the 1/4 inch movement at the tip of the lever.

I could not get a good measurement on the right side bushing. In just "working" it fore and aft it was noticably less on the right side than the left. It is interesting that the texture in the brass/bronze bushings imprinted themselves on the steel shaft. Also, you can see a little wear on the slot for the roll pin, the shaft was working to the left a little.

There must be some type of rebuild kit for this but the right side must have to stay because it is a blind hole for the bushing. More research.

Those clips were a good tip. I never saw ones like that and they would keep closed tension much better.

Thanks for the help Jacks!

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Jacks
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PostPosted: Sun Apr 06, 2014 12:10 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I can't say that I have ever seen that much wear. But you are in luck. Stoddard has a reproduction for this obsolete part... and they are in Ohio 30 min from Hudson!!! Here's a link to the shaft:
http://www.stoddard.com/356-1/transmission-clutch-...k-kit.html
They also have the bushings, but the ones i have gotten recently needed to be sized to fit correctly. I don't have a part# for them handy. Let me know if you need it. The flywheel looks OK to me, but I don't really like that clutch. It wouldn't be going back in if we were doing it. You really need a spung center disc to take the shocking off the trans, and we always use a diaphram PP. All pinned and balanced, of course (A MUST). When you get the bowden bracket installed, take a pic and a measurement from the tube to the bracket.
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JeffL
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PostPosted: Sun Apr 06, 2014 12:34 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Jacks wrote:
I can't say that I have ever seen that much wear. But you are in luck. Stoddard has a reproduction for this obsolete part... and they are in Ohio 30 min from Hudson!!! Here's a link to the shaft:
http://www.stoddard.com/356-1/transmission-clutch-...k-kit.html
They also have the bushings, but the ones i have gotten recently needed to be sized to fit correctly. I don't have a part# for them handy. Let me know if you need it. The flywheel looks OK to me, but I don't really like that clutch. It wouldn't be going back in if we were doing it. You really need a spung center disc to take the shocking off the trans, and we always use a diaphram PP. All pinned and balanced, of course (A MUST). When you get the bowden bracket installed, take a pic and a measurement from the tube to the bracket.


Glad I could help you out by earning the "most worn" clutch shaft award.

I will call Stoddard tomorrow and see if they have the bushings too. How did you get them out, did you have to grind them thin and then collapse them? The right is in a blind hole. Maybe I need to have a tool made to insert them too?

By sized I guess after inserted they need to be reamed. I don't have a tool for that so I might have to look to see what is available.

Thanks again.
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PostPosted: Sun Apr 06, 2014 4:22 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Working on the bushings.

For the left one I used a long bolt, 7/16 socket and an 18mm socket as a press. I simply tightened the bolt and pulled the sleave bushing right out. I see that they are a rolled bushing with a split. Maybe I can catch the split on the inside and peel it out. For now I will wait for new parts to come in and size things up.

The bottom picture shows the bushing out between the two sockets.

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roy mawbey
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PostPosted: Mon Apr 07, 2014 3:34 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I just have to say to diagnose from a distance from info and photo's Jack's replies really shows, I mean really shows , he knows his onions. ( English expression meaning he is clever ). Fantastic replies from both of you. Your work Jeff also shows you know a lot about working on cars. Many would never have been able to follow and get the result you have from following Jack's excellent advice.

I really enjoy this thread, I make one point. When I changed my early Hausermann diapragm clutch for a 6 spring it made my day. Messing about on that 180mm D/P with a press to get the correct height and never achieving the result was a pain. The situation was so different with the 356C car and the F/ Sachs (from memory) D/P version. Never had any problem with that version.

What version Diapragm clutch would you use on Jeffs car Jack? Just interested to know.

Roy
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Jacks
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PostPosted: Mon Apr 07, 2014 4:59 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thanks Roy. F/Sachs makes a 180mm diaphragm , with TOB collar, that is very similar to the B/C type. I agree, those Hauserman PP are a bummer.
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PostPosted: Mon Apr 07, 2014 7:29 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Jeff, if you want to replace the right side bushing, you can usually "rent" a blind-hole bushing puller from Autozone or Advance. I've used the one from Advance, but had to make some minor modifications, because it can't be used with a slide hammer inside the bellhousing. Don't recall exactly how I did it, but it worked really well. Seems like it involved a nut and washer, and maybe a tube?

Dave
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PostPosted: Mon Apr 07, 2014 9:05 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

DB, that is a good tip, however appox 60% of the time the right side bushing is still serviceable. Variations on the size of replacement shafts can come in to play. My recommendation is to not remove the remaining bushing until the new shaft is test fitted. Sizing new bushings can be hit and miss. DB what year is your car? Is it a 644 with a blind hole bushing bore?
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PostPosted: Tue Apr 08, 2014 12:02 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Jeff, maybe it would be good to order one of these: http://www.thesamba.com/vw/classifieds/detail.php?id=1087010
You won't be needing that lengthened one. It will cause trouble.
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PostPosted: Tue Apr 08, 2014 1:27 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hi, Jack. My car is a '58 coupe with a 644 T/A with the blind hole bushing bore. I guess I got lucky. My new bushings fit perfectly. And you're right, my right side bushing wasn't badly worn, and I considered re-using it. Woulda saved some time too, but what the heck, I had a new one ....

Another thing I remember is that when I replaced my cross shaft, bushings, and throwout fork 5 or 6 yrs ago, I bought the kit from Stoddard. It included the large roll pins, but not the smaller inner ones. I had to re-use my old inner pins. So don't throw anything away until you see what you got.

I see that Harbor Freight sells a blind-hole bushing puller, but I can't vouch for the quality of the tool. It would hardly be worth the price, though, for a single job.

Dave
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PostPosted: Tue Apr 08, 2014 1:33 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I usually thread the blind ones with a large tap to remove. The ones I'm getting from Stoddard lately don't fit like the ones I got from them before Confused
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PostPosted: Tue Apr 08, 2014 3:43 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Jacks wrote:
DB, that is a good tip, however appox 60% of the time the right side bushing is still serviceable. Variations on the size of replacement shafts can come in to play. My recommendation is to not remove the remaining bushing until the new shaft is test fitted. Sizing new bushings can be hit and miss. DB what year is your car? Is it a 644 with a blind hole bushing bore?


Thanks again Jacks, when I stopped at Stoddards to get the shaft and bushing they suggeted to the people only do one unless they see a major reason. When I place the new bushing on the shaft there is a tolerance (it does not need to be reamed but it is not installed yet). I used the mic and don't see much difference on the right side so I am going to leave it.

Good suggestions on how to pull it from others. I will tuck that away!
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