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Clutch and Pressure Plate Questions - force 1600N
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JeffL
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PostPosted: Tue Apr 08, 2014 3:51 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Jacks wrote:
Jeff, maybe it would be good to order one of these: http://www.thesamba.com/vw/classifieds/detail.php?id=1087010
You won't be needing that lengthened one. It will cause trouble.


Right with you but I went for the Heim kit. He also has a end to shorten the cable and it is like a jaw chuck to tighten onto a shortened cable.

I talked with Eric on the phone and a great guy to help out so I'll give him a plug. So the new shaft, with his Heim connector, cable and compression end about $130. Should get it tomorrow or the next day.

The picture below shows how this connector is made on the end, I did not get the whole pedal assembly, the rest of mine is OK. This is for an early pedal assembly mine will have the offset for a 58 on.


http://cma-vw.com/store/index.php?main_page=product_info&cPath=2&products_id=9

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Jacks
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PostPosted: Tue Apr 08, 2014 5:33 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

That sounds good. Just push the new one in 1/4 of the way at a time, then check the shaft for fit. If it's too tight, remove the bushing and hone with an appropriately sized brake cyl hone. Don't forget to lube the bushings with Bosch 005 grease before final installation. Install the TOB fork roll pins with the splits at 12 o'clock for one and 6 o'clock for the other.
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JeffL
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PostPosted: Tue Apr 08, 2014 6:08 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Man that was tight going in. I took Jacks advice and just went in about 1/4 inch at a time. All the clearance I saw in the bearing just placed on the shaft was all gone once bushing was pressed in. I only had to polish the shaft a little to get it to go in with some slight pressure. While it would not fall on its own once in it worked fine. I put the spring on first, slid it in, put the latteral anchor pin in by the starter, and then used the cable to pull the lever down so I could drive in the fork pins. Worked great!

The second picture shows no tension on the cable just mounted to show the lever arm angle. Also the same with the third picture and yes the correct bowden tube mount.

The 4th is where it gets tricky. If you look close you can see the clutch cable tube coming out of the tunnel. The clutch cable touches the bottom of it and it skims across the top of the trans nose cone. The accelerator cable has to cross over and get lined up with and offset that matches the 356 lever arm.

From the metal clutch tube to the bottom of the bowden anchor point is about 12 1/4 inches. I might be able to run around the side of the trans but I will not know until I have a bowden tube to try.

The little silver thing is a socket stuck in the bowden tube hold to keep the cable from coming up out of the slot. The last picture is a comparison of the original and new parts.

Jacks, your up......

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dsrtfox
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PostPosted: Tue Apr 08, 2014 6:30 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Way to go Jeff, your definitely on the right road now.

What is an Alkin. Your avatar is a Karmann Ghia is it not ?
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JeffL
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PostPosted: Tue Apr 08, 2014 6:36 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

dsrtfox wrote:
Way to go Jeff, your definitely on the right road now.

What is an Alkin. Your avatar is a Karmann Ghia is it not ?


Yea the avatar is my 56 Ghia I have had for 20 years. I did all the metal work with NOS parts, found an NOS Judson Supercharger and hood scoop and rounded things out with a Ghia Webasto sliding sunroof. Then we had some kids. Spent lots of years with different drivers and then some early cars from 1914 and 1915. Even had a Twin H Hudson Hornet for a while then to a 63 all original Mini. I will get to the Ghia but I have always wanted an Alken.

4 Alkens remain and maybe 2 dozen were built in 1958. Having all 1958 Porsche running gear was just the ticket for this project. Down in my signature is a link to my website with photos and here is the full restoration thread on the samba.

http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=539063


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This photo was taken a year ago, does not look like I have made much progres.......

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Last edited by JeffL on Wed Apr 09, 2014 4:17 am; edited 1 time in total
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Jacks
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PostPosted: Tue Apr 08, 2014 10:40 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

OK, looks good so far. Nicely done Jeff, Can you remove the pulley system at the front of the trans? I don't see that it is attached to the front adapter mount system. A clearer and a little closer photo of the clutch tube where it exits the chassis please, taken from the rear. A closer one from the left side showing the cable routing over the nose cone including the cable exiting the tube. Another of the metal cable tube routing under the shift coupler cover plate. Do you have a bowden of any kind? Can you slip the forward end on to the tube exiting the chassis at all? If so, hold it in the approx location to the Anchor point. I don't care if it has to bend in a slight 'S' shape. I don't see the throttle cable having to cross over the clutch cable.
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JeffL
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PostPosted: Wed Apr 09, 2014 4:09 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Jacks wrote:
OK, looks good so far. Nicely done Jeff, Can you remove the pulley system at the front of the trans? I don't see that it is attached to the front adapter mount system. A clearer and a little closer photo of the clutch tube where it exits the chassis please, taken from the rear. A closer one from the left side showing the cable routing over the nose cone including the cable exiting the tube. Another of the metal cable tube routing under the shift coupler cover plate. Do you have a bowden of any kind? Can you slip the forward end on to the tube exiting the chassis at all? If so, hold it in the approx location to the Anchor point. I don't care if it has to bend in a slight 'S' shape. I don't see the throttle cable having to cross over the clutch cable.


I have two bowden cables coming this week. One is a stadard Beetle and one is a later 60s Bus which should be longer. They won't breakt the budget since they are only about $10 each. As soon as I get them I will "mock up" a couple of routings and post some photos.

Those pulleys were thier way to get the accelerator cable aligned. They only mount with the top two bolts of the nose cone witht the "Franken-bracket" so I'll get them off and supply some more photos.

You can see they used a braided cable where VW used a wire and Porsche used a rod. The cable uses a "crimp on" connector at the accelerator and they welded a bolt at the other end which would be easy to find if this woud break on the road. I also think the size of the cable could pull a dozen carb linkages down, a little over kill but likely what they had and it did work.

Can't locate an early Sachs diaphram PP. Are the early Beetle and Bus ones OK as long as they are 180 mm? There are a couple on the Samba but I couldn't find any new ones except "off brands" and I don't know the quality. Stoddards only had 6 sping PPs.[/quote]
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Jacks
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PostPosted: Wed Apr 09, 2014 4:43 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Clutch PP: http://www.autohausaz.com/search/product.aspx?part...7AodcyEAtg
Clutch disc, spung center: http://www.autohausaz.com/search/product.aspx?sid=...TX%205202M
The PP will have to be pinned to the flywheel and balanced as a unit. Do you have someone that can do that? Also, take a picture of the throttle linkage on the back side of the fan shroud where your throttle cable attaches.
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JeffL
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PostPosted: Wed Apr 09, 2014 6:50 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Jacks wrote:
Clutch PP: http://www.autohausaz.com/search/product.aspx?part...7AodcyEAtg
Clutch disc, spung center: http://www.autohausaz.com/search/product.aspx?sid=...TX%205202M
The PP will have to be pinned to the flywheel and balanced as a unit. Do you have someone that can do that? Also, take a picture of the throttle linkage on the back side of the fan shroud where your throttle cable attaches.


No I don't have the machine shop to help with the flywheel... I will check though. That looks like a standard VW Bus part number so they must be interchangable and has the F&S I was looking for, thanks.

My pilot shaft gland nut much be original. It just has a bronze double cut helix in it, no bearings.
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Jacks
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PostPosted: Wed Apr 09, 2014 10:06 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Yes it is a VW bus # but with a different suffix. It is made by Sachs in Brazil This is the ONLY one that is a diaphram style like the Sachs 356 B/C. The rest are the spring type, like you already have.
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JeffL
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PostPosted: Thu Apr 10, 2014 6:21 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Here are some better photos of the cable where it appears out of the tunnel.

The clutch tube on the left, accelerator in the center, and the choke tube (not used anymore) on the right.

The clutch cable is dragging on the front nose support bracket but is centered coming out of the tube.

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PostPosted: Thu Apr 10, 2014 7:57 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

It may be a small thing .... or maybe not.

Your motor mount bolts are not installed correctly. The heads should be on the inside of the bellhousing. The way you have them, the bolts can interfere with the flywheel.

Dave
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PostPosted: Thu Apr 10, 2014 10:38 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Jeff, those pix are quite helpful. Things are looking really good. I like the angle of approach. When you get a bowden tube, try to push it on to the chassis tube and hold it in the appox location to the new mount on the trans. Try both bowden tubes that you ordered and show pix of both, long and short. Don't worry about the rear trans mount hardware. The 3rd upper bolts on each side, which doesn't get used in your application, would be the only ones of concern. Did you order the PP & disc? A pic of the throttle cable end that attaches to the engine would be good too. I like that heavy cable. We used a similar size. Moving right along... Cool
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JeffL
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PostPosted: Fri Apr 11, 2014 4:23 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

DBCouper wrote:
It may be a small thing .... or maybe not.

Your motor mount bolts are not installed correctly. The heads should be on the inside of the bellhousing. The way you have them, the bolts can interfere with the flywheel.

Dave


The way the VW rubber mounts are made the bolt/stud is cast into the rubber mount so there is not another way to install it the studs "protrude into" the bell housing area. The length of the bolt does is setup not to interfer. I take it that the 356 mount is different then from your observation.
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Last edited by JeffL on Fri Apr 11, 2014 4:28 am; edited 1 time in total
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PostPosted: Fri Apr 11, 2014 4:27 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Jacks wrote:
Jeff, those pix are quite helpful. Things are looking really good. I like the angle of approach. When you get a bowden tube, try to push it on to the chassis tube and hold it in the appox location to the new mount on the trans. Try both bowden tubes that you ordered and show pix of both, long and short. Don't worry about the rear trans mount hardware. The 3rd upper bolts on each side, which doesn't get used in your application, would be the only ones of concern. Did you order the PP & disc? A pic of the throttle cable end that attaches to the engine would be good too. I like that heavy cable. We used a similar size. Moving right along... Cool


Clutch cable kit came in yesterday. I thought I was getting a longer, unterminated end to trim, but will see if the standard cable works.

Clutch, pressure plate and bowden tubes on order and shipped. Hopefully it will be in today or tomorrow.

I will get pics of the carb lever arm. It is the standard mount no the fan shroud with lever (not ball socket) but I will need an extension to get above the front engine tin (otherwise I was lining up to have to cut where the rubber seal anchors). The 356 comes in real low from the bell crank and I have to come in higher....... I know, you are thinking on this already.....
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PostPosted: Fri Apr 11, 2014 5:15 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Jacks wrote:
^^^ That's the way we did it back then


I hope this looks closer after 2 weeks of life coaching Smile

The Heim cable and shaft is awesome! No issues with fit, if I have to cut the cable I will and use the adapter. The pedals sit level now since the "double hook" shaft is replace with the Heim shaft.

The VW bowden tube is in the first close up and is too short.

The second tube is a later 60s bus bowden tube with a 311 part number and works OK. The space is made from the bushing of a shock, you know when they rust on the bolt and the rubber pulls off them, I keep a few around just because and it fit great, just shortened a little.

The final is the ovearall view. They original project came with a net that was blown out and a tube on it as a spacer. That is what you see on the end of the cable. The clutch fork lever arm is at rest with no tension on it.

I think it looks great, if it works with the new pressure plate and does not chatter it is a success.

Now onto the accellerator cable if the pressure plate and clutch come in tomorrow.

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111721361E BOWDEN TUBE, 1975-1979 Beetle, OEM 111721361E

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311721361 CLUTCH CABLE SLEEVE, bowden tube, fits all Beetles through 1974, fits through 1967 Bus, OEM 311721361

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311721361 CLUTCH CABLE SLEEVE, bowden tube, fits all Beetles through 1974, fits through 1967 Bus, OEM 311721361

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Where we started about 2 weeks ago and $500 richer, labor is free......

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Last edited by JeffL on Sat Apr 12, 2014 3:36 pm; edited 1 time in total
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PostPosted: Fri Apr 11, 2014 6:39 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Sorry, Jeff. Not that familiar with VW's. Yes, the 356 is different. Maybe I ought to just stay out of this discussion. You're way over my head. That's interesting, though, that the VW mount stud pattern fits the 644 bellhousing. I bet they're a lot less expensive, too.

Dave
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PostPosted: Fri Apr 11, 2014 7:43 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

DBCouper wrote:
Sorry, Jeff. Not that familiar with VW's. Yes, the 356 is different. Maybe I ought to just stay out of this discussion. You're way over my head. That's interesting, though, that the VW mount stud pattern fits the 644 bellhousing. I bet they're a lot less expensive, too.

Dave


It was a good observation keep adding. Porsche used lots of VW parts and improved them. I was surprised too what actually matched up.

The distance from the axle tubes to where the shift rod attaches was only 3/4 inch longer. I had to cut that off the hockey stick to slide the transaxle up further to keep the axles aligned. The rubber mounts as ther rear bolted right in.
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PostPosted: Sat Apr 12, 2014 6:46 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Looking great Jeff,

Roy
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PostPosted: Sat Apr 12, 2014 7:23 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Jeff, please tell me the part # for the 2 different bowden tubes.
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