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yamaducci Samba Member
Joined: March 30, 2010 Posts: 2335 Location: Mount Airy, Maryland
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Posted: Tue Apr 22, 2014 8:59 am Post subject: |
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75smith wrote: |
yamaducci wrote: |
Eaallred wrote: |
Not reading 9 pages of this, so don't know if it's been mentioned:
I burn paint off my brake drums from the heat of those.
I use CHEAP paint on my 94mm cylinders, and it doesn't burn off.
Think about it, the cylinders run cooler than your brake drums.
So is heat/warping REALLY an issue?
IMHO, no.
94's work great. |
Just to keep this going for another 9 pages I would argue that heat in the cylinder is not neccesarily the cause for warp but uneven torque when the engine is expanded agains different length head studs. This is worse on thinnner walled cylinders like 94's. They have less structural integrity. |
this brings up a good point, and is true no matter what, a 6 stud case would probably solve everything, but then we still arrive at the issue that thinner cylinders will warp easier then thicker cylinders |
Correct - You could torque down a cylinder incorrectly and run a bore gauge down it and prove that it is warped. That is a dynamic measurement when you introduce uneven heating of the engine. This is complicated by unequal length head studs, unevenly heated cylinders and heads. Tops and bottoms will have different temps. This is the number one reason a thermostat is great. Blowing cold air on the top half of the cylinder while the bottom half is heating up causes warp immediately. Thicker cylinders just simply resist this more than thinner ones. _________________ -John Cox
My 2498 Turbo Re-Build Thread: http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?p=5578697#5578697
3rd Brake Light Safety Stars- I still have a couple with blue light left. Email me if interested. |
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SBD Samba Member
Joined: October 24, 2012 Posts: 3269 Location: SOUTH DAKOTA
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Posted: Tue Apr 22, 2014 9:05 am Post subject: |
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yamaducci wrote: |
Eaallred wrote: |
Not reading 9 pages of this, so don't know if it's been mentioned:
I burn paint off my brake drums from the heat of those.
I use CHEAP paint on my 94mm cylinders, and it doesn't burn off.
Think about it, the cylinders run cooler than your brake drums.
So is heat/warping REALLY an issue?
IMHO, no.
94's work great. |
Just to keep this going for another 9 pages I would argue that heat in the cylinder is not neccesarily the cause for warp but uneven torque when the engine is expanded agains different length head studs. This is worse on thinnner walled cylinders like 94's. They have less structural integrity. |
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AlteWagen Troll
Joined: February 23, 2007 Posts: 8503 Location: PNW
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Posted: Tue Apr 22, 2014 10:22 am Post subject: |
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I dont think there is one person who said 94s dont work great on the street or track. Ive been using them since the 80s and will continue to use them for specific uses.
To the OP to keep your options open I would use a 94 cut down to fit a 90.5 spigot to keep as much strength in the case as possible. At 60K miles pull the heads for a valve job and new springs and check the cylinders for out of round. If they check out re ring and enjoy. If not you can put some 92 thick walls or 90.5s if you feel the need to experiment.
If you want to give your 94s the best chance possible for survival make sure to run a CHT gauge so to avoid overheating if possible.
Good luck and have fun!! _________________ Grapes of Wrath $200 Engine Rebuild
Official Dual Carb Thread
Cylinder Head Quick Reference Sheet |
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vwracerdave Samba Member
Joined: November 11, 2004 Posts: 15309 Location: Deep in the 405
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Posted: Tue Apr 22, 2014 10:30 am Post subject: |
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yamaducci wrote: |
Just to keep this going for another 9 pages I would argue that heat in the cylinder is not neccesarily the cause for warp but uneven torque when the engine is expanded agains different length head studs. This is worse on thinnner walled cylinders like 94's. They have less structural integrity. |
How about throwing in rod length. You will have different side loads on pistons and cylinders with different length rods. _________________ 2017 Street Comp Champion - Thunder Valley Raceway Park - Noble, OK
2010 Sportsman ET Champion - Mid-America Dragway - Arkansas City, KS
1997 Sportsman ET Champion - Thunder Valley Raceway Park - Noble ,OK |
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dsrtfox Samba Member
Joined: August 25, 2009 Posts: 443 Location: Phoenix
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Posted: Tue Apr 22, 2014 4:25 pm Post subject: |
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How about 94 Nickies, would that solve all of the heat and warping problems.
Yes I know they are very expensive... |
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66brm Samba Member
Joined: January 25, 2010 Posts: 3676 Location: Perth Western Australia
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Posted: Wed Apr 23, 2014 10:23 pm Post subject: |
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I'm surprised that noone has thought that back in the day when people were first getting up to 94's in bore that the deck had to be huge and also semi hemi'd to get CR down, causing more heat to be in the cylinder than todays tight deck engines where more work has gone into understanding an engines thermal characteristics.
I say run SSquishies and 94's for everyone!!! _________________ Aust. RHD 66 Type 1
Aust. RHD 57 Type 1 Oval
modok wrote: |
I am an expert at fitting things in holes, been doing it a long time |
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VWCOOL Samba Member
Joined: June 02, 2006 Posts: 1821 Location: Down under
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Posted: Mon May 05, 2014 10:35 pm Post subject: |
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AlteWagen wrote: |
VWCOOL wrote: |
I see 125C (260F) routinely on street and track.
That is NOT at the oil pickup location. |
Wonder what the head temps are, oh wait he is not monitoring them. |
No, I don't monitor head temps.
My street and track engines don't give me any dramas... so I don't need to |
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Quokka42 Samba Member
Joined: December 02, 2010 Posts: 3117 Location: Melbourne, Australia
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Posted: Mon May 05, 2014 11:01 pm Post subject: |
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VWCOOL wrote: |
AlteWagen wrote: |
VWCOOL wrote: |
I see 125C (260F) routinely on street and track.
That is NOT at the oil pickup location. |
Wonder what the head temps are, oh wait he is not monitoring them. |
No, I don't monitor head temps.
My street and track engines don't give me any dramas... so I don't need to |
No, if you think 125C (260F) is normal oil temperature and not a problem, the information would be useless to you. _________________ There has only ever been one man who was perfect, and they nailed Him to a cross. |
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VWCOOL Samba Member
Joined: June 02, 2006 Posts: 1821 Location: Down under
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Posted: Mon May 05, 2014 11:05 pm Post subject: |
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Quokka42 wrote: |
VWCOOL wrote: |
AlteWagen wrote: |
VWCOOL wrote: |
I see 125C (260F) routinely on street and track.
That is NOT at the oil pickup location. |
Wonder what the head temps are, oh wait he is not monitoring them. |
No, I don't monitor head temps.
My street and track engines don't give me any dramas... so I don't need to |
No, if you think 125C (260F) is normal oil temperature and not a problem, the information would be useless to you. |
It's not 'think' Quokka, it's research, development and inspection |
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VWCOOL Samba Member
Joined: June 02, 2006 Posts: 1821 Location: Down under
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Posted: Mon May 05, 2014 11:06 pm Post subject: |
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AlteWagen wrote: |
I dont think there is one person who said 94s dont work great on the street or track. Ive been using them since the 80s and will continue to use them for specific uses.
To the OP to keep your options open I would use a 94 cut down to fit a 90.5 spigot to keep as much strength in the case as possible. At 60K miles pull the heads for a valve job and new springs and check the cylinders for out of round. If they check out re ring and enjoy. If not you can put some 92 thick walls or 90.5s if you feel the need to experiment.
If you want to give your 94s the best chance possible for survival make sure to run a CHT gauge so to avoid overheating if possible.
Good luck and have fun!! |
The fear and loathing about 94s, and the 'fact' they won't last as long because they 'run hotter' and have 'thinner walls' than 92s and 90.5s, goes back to the first page of this thread.
Yep, they work on-track so why anyone would advise against a 94 P&C for street use based on the notion of 'too hot' is silly
Based on my decades-old 94 P&Bs (that still do 75RWHP) and my more recent success in motorsport with another 94-bore engine, and many dozens of other 1916s I have been involved with, I call BS on the 'too hot'/warped barrels/blowby/out of round
Maybe instead of components, it's poor engine building?
Last edited by VWCOOL on Mon May 05, 2014 11:16 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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Quokka42 Samba Member
Joined: December 02, 2010 Posts: 3117 Location: Melbourne, Australia
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Posted: Mon May 05, 2014 11:10 pm Post subject: |
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Ah, but you argued that science and fact are all "magic" and if you start accepting fact you would have to face that your claims are all hokum. The rest of the automotive engineering world would consider constant 260F oil temps indicative of a fault.
I'll take your word on your small penis, though. _________________ There has only ever been one man who was perfect, and they nailed Him to a cross. |
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miniman82 Samba Swamp Donkey
Joined: March 22, 2005 Posts: 9515 Location: Southern Maryland
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Posted: Tue May 06, 2014 1:35 pm Post subject: |
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Quokka42 wrote: |
Ah, but you argued that science and fact are all "magic" |
Here's a fact, you're all troll bait.
Get out there and start driving, FFS. Who gives a whale's vagina if a 90.5 lasts 80,000 miles and a 94 only makes it to 60,000, you're not going to enjoy 1 mile with all this theoretical BS in here. Here's a quick answer to the OP's question, which is reposted below since obviously no one in here remembers:
Quote: |
I am looking for something with as much power as I can get while still using the 69 stroke and standard Dual Port heads and still be reliable. |
'Reliable' means you can drive it every day with no special treatment, and only give it routine maintenance. The answer to that question is 94's; just because they may not last as long as a thicker cylinder doesn't make them unreliable, it's not like they're gonna fly apart on you. I boost mine all the time, and so do plenty of other people. Ask them if you don't believe me.
OP never did provide a budget though, did he? _________________ Build thread: http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=212747
Glenn wrote: |
satterley_sr wrote: |
I just wanted to bitch but I'm getting no sympathy. |
Welcome to the Samba. |
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Quokka42 Samba Member
Joined: December 02, 2010 Posts: 3117 Location: Melbourne, Australia
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Posted: Tue May 06, 2014 3:02 pm Post subject: |
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You didn't read much of the thread, did you minime?
The OP asked why some people felt one way or another about the 94s and it was answered without prejudice on the first page, then VWFool started carrying on about how any opinion or fact different to what he believes is "magic and superstition." The irony is he was upset by statements much milder that yours. Obviously a kid who thinks that because he chose to build a 1915 it has to be better than anything anyone else has done, so yeah, it has been fun baiting this troll. I don't see him growing up in the near future, so we can keep this going for years. _________________ There has only ever been one man who was perfect, and they nailed Him to a cross. |
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miniman82 Samba Swamp Donkey
Joined: March 22, 2005 Posts: 9515 Location: Southern Maryland
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Posted: Tue May 06, 2014 4:49 pm Post subject: |
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No hantavirus, I didn't and I don't need to. I'm merely pointing out the fact that this thread has devolved into cylinder bashing, and no longer has anything whatsoever to do with the original topic. Just as well, OP hasn't been back since so we've effectively scared him off. _________________ Build thread: http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=212747
Glenn wrote: |
satterley_sr wrote: |
I just wanted to bitch but I'm getting no sympathy. |
Welcome to the Samba. |
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Quokka42 Samba Member
Joined: December 02, 2010 Posts: 3117 Location: Melbourne, Australia
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Posted: Tue May 06, 2014 6:05 pm Post subject: |
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Only the usual suspects. Like I said, the question was answered pretty quick, but I don't think the OP came back to even look, then someone got anal about 4 digit accuracy and it devolved from there. I must admit I had a bit of fun poking at the cave-dweller...
BTW - a quokka is a marsupial, so won't be affected by hantavirus. _________________ There has only ever been one man who was perfect, and they nailed Him to a cross. |
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miniman82 Samba Swamp Donkey
Joined: March 22, 2005 Posts: 9515 Location: Southern Maryland
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Posted: Tue May 06, 2014 6:54 pm Post subject: |
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Does it have fur, crawl around on four legs? Just sayin... _________________ Build thread: http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=212747
Glenn wrote: |
satterley_sr wrote: |
I just wanted to bitch but I'm getting no sympathy. |
Welcome to the Samba. |
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Quokka42 Samba Member
Joined: December 02, 2010 Posts: 3117 Location: Melbourne, Australia
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Posted: Tue May 06, 2014 7:03 pm Post subject: |
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It often stands on two legs, as it is smarter than the average tourist and knows it can cajole them into feeding it, which is much easier than crawling around on the ground looking for berries. _________________ There has only ever been one man who was perfect, and they nailed Him to a cross. |
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spencerfvee Samba Member
Joined: August 19, 2004 Posts: 3071
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Posted: Tue Nov 18, 2014 2:22 pm Post subject: |
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I just read all the posts on this forum .this was the biggest pissing contest I have ever read on samba . No one won every one was right and the only thing that got done was who could give the best put downs about what others had to say About 94 s .oh yes the biggest thing was it's not a1916 it's a 1915 and most of this forum was about who's ego was the biggest .what a big waist of time reading this forum . my god you all acted like 7 graders on a play ground. sambas about helping each other out with info .not my pee pee is bigger than your pee pee spencerfvee quote="Quokka42"]It often stands on two legs, as it is smarter than the average tourist and knows it can cajole them into feeding it, which is much easier than crawling around on the ground looking for berries.[/quote] |
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Anvil Samba Member
Joined: September 28, 2009 Posts: 248 Location: Golden, Colorado
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Posted: Tue Nov 18, 2014 3:30 pm Post subject: |
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So 92's are best then? _________________ A man with any character at all must have enemies and places he is not welcome—in the end we are not only defined by our friends, but those aligned against us. |
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Splitdog Samba Split Personality
Joined: February 16, 2004 Posts: 4125 Location: Planet VW
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Posted: Tue Nov 18, 2014 3:35 pm Post subject: |
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ALL internet forums are the same. It could be a nice, wealth of info, but instead is usually run by a gang of 'regulars' who beat on people who's ideas are not the same, or don't have sufficient knowledge. Then it's only a matter of time before it devolves into penises and name-calling. I'm glad I have real sources to get my info. _________________ CH³NO²
Z = z² + C
Der Blitzkrieg Kafers
#notacallooker |
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