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Alternate cylinder head temperature mounting ideas
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raul arrese
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PostPosted: Mon Apr 14, 2014 2:25 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

[email protected] wrote:
we call this "Half assing", when you don't want to do it properly.

LOL ... this made me laugh like crazy ... : ) thanks john , now send me my order !!!
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PostPosted: Mon Apr 14, 2014 2:29 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

raul arrese wrote:
I just read this thread and I think there is a serious mis understanding here , roy I understand what your saying , yeah you can pick up temps anywhere you want on a block or heads for some kind of reference and tune a motor . shit I can tune a motor with no feed back of temps at all. But what they are saying is what is the best place for picking up whats going on in the combustion chamber when your trying to make some serious power , not going grocery shopping ... no offense I see your point but I also see there's : )


Thank you Raul. This is exactly what I've been trying to say. All I'm pissed about and won't let go is that the OP asked for alternate ideas. I gave him one. Simple as that. Many people on here love to push people into their way of thinking. I like to give people alternate ways to think.

I also said, which I see you picked up on, that for a run of the mill street performance engine, either method is going to work. If I was running a race car team for road, off road or track, of course I would want the combustion chamber temps.

It's a case of people thinking they know everything and refusing to even listen of other people ideas. Sad, very sad.
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Cylinder Head Reference Sheet
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[email protected]
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PostPosted: Mon Apr 14, 2014 2:30 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

[email protected] wrote:
we call this "Half assing", when you don't want to do it properly.


I have a lot of words I can use to describe you John, you really want to start this?
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Stripped66
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PostPosted: Mon Apr 14, 2014 2:40 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

[email protected] wrote:
How about you? Is your engine a super secret probation engine? You can only tune it knowing the combustion chamber temp?


Laughing
You're more than welcome to click on my photo gallery; it's not exactly the shallow end of the pool. Suffice to say, you and I have very different definitions of a street engine.
Laughing
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66brm wrote:
Bodacious wrote:
Why not just make a custom set of wires with a Y splice in them. Then you could just run one distributor.

I don't think electrickery works that way


Last edited by Stripped66 on Mon Apr 14, 2014 2:44 pm; edited 2 times in total
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raul arrese
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PostPosted: Mon Apr 14, 2014 2:41 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

[email protected] wrote:
raul arrese wrote:
I just read this thread and I think there is a serious mis understanding here , roy I understand what your saying , yeah you can pick up temps anywhere you want on a block or heads for some kind of reference and tune a motor . shit I can tune a motor with no feed back of temps at all. But what they are saying is what is the best place for picking up whats going on in the combustion chamber when your trying to make some serious power , not going grocery shopping ... no offense I see your point but I also see there's : )


Thank you Raul. This is exactly what I've been trying to say. All I'm pissed about and won't let go is that the OP asked for alternate ideas. I gave him one. Simple as that. Many people on here love to push people into their way of thinking. I like to give people alternate ways to think.

I also said, which I see you picked up on, that for a run of the mill street performance engine, either method is going to work. If I was running a race car team for road, off road or track, of course I would want the combustion chamber temps.

It's a case of people thinking they know everything and refusing to even listen of other people ideas. Sad, very sad.

Yeah I know , I see both sides ... there are allot of smart guys on here and every one of us have different ways of doing stuff , don't all of you remember tuning with no refrences of what what going on in the motor ?? shit it was fun , yeah we hurt some stuff but wow it was cool .. I remember my first haltec ecu about 20 years ago .. I think it was there first , " F-3 fuel only ... I would drive with my black and white laptop boosting the shit out of engines and using some stupid little led square box hooked up too a regular 1 wire o 2 sensor ... it did nothing to help me ... lol... lean , rich , lean , rich .. bang , backfire ... almost killed my self so many times ...
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[email protected]
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PostPosted: Mon Apr 14, 2014 2:42 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

this was not directed toward you Roy. If you want to take it that way that's your choice.

[email protected] wrote:
[email protected] wrote:
we call this "Half assing", when you don't want to do it properly.


I have a lot of words I can use to describe you John, you really want to start this?

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PostPosted: Mon Apr 14, 2014 2:47 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Stripped66 wrote:
[email protected] wrote:
How about you? Is your engine a super secret probation engine? You can only tune it knowing the combustion chamber temp?


Laughing
You're more than welcome to click on my photo gallery; it's not exactly the shallow end of the pool.
Laughing


Just did and you are 100% right. You cannot tune YOUR engine with my method. Now, how many other people are running street engines like yours? My guess would be less than 1% of all aircooled engines on the street have a build anywhere close to as complicated as yours.

That's like NASA telling a guy who runs a jet dragster that he has to follow NASA protocal to tune his jet turbine. Of course many of the things are the same but the guy with a jet dragster isn't trying to break Earth's gravitational force. And he also isn't flying.
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[email protected]
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PostPosted: Mon Apr 14, 2014 2:50 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

If I mount the sender under the front bumper bolt, it also "works fine". It will give me a reading when the rear of the car is on fire.

Now, if you want it to show the difference between 12.8 and 13.2:1, or what happens if I change the ignition timing 2 degrees, the sender should be under the spark plug.

If you want to be a poser, take the gauge apart and peg the needle to 375F. It will be just like in the 80s when Pep boys sold fake car phones so guys could pretend they actually had a car phone to impress the ladies.
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Stripped66
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PostPosted: Mon Apr 14, 2014 2:55 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

[email protected] wrote:
Stripped66 wrote:
[email protected] wrote:
How about you? Is your engine a super secret probation engine? You can only tune it knowing the combustion chamber temp?


Laughing
You're more than welcome to click on my photo gallery; it's not exactly the shallow end of the pool.
Laughing


Just did and you are 100% right. You cannot tune YOUR engine with my method. Now, how many other people are running street engines like yours? My guess would be less than 1% of all aircooled engines on the street have a build anywhere close to as complicated as yours.

That's like NASA telling a guy who runs a jet dragster that he has to follow NASA protocal to tune his jet turbine. Of course many of the things are the same but the guy with a jet dragster isn't trying to break Earth's gravitational force. And he also isn't flying.


Roy, I post here to share knowledge. I don't know what most folks are building, or what they will eventually build 2, 5, 7 years down the road. I know that esde (the OP) is no spring chicken, and I also know that many people here turn to CHT gauges for more than just a dash-ornament. Regardless of what folks are building, at worst, people might understand there is a difference and why there is a difference between sensor locations; at best, people might make an educated choice as to what measurement location is going to give them the information they want or need.
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66brm wrote:
Bodacious wrote:
Why not just make a custom set of wires with a Y splice in them. Then you could just run one distributor.

I don't think electrickery works that way
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[email protected]
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PostPosted: Mon Apr 14, 2014 3:08 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Roy,

here's a tip.

In the picture on page 1 of this thread, where Esde is thinking of mounting the ring. Machine your heads there (opposite the spark plug), just add it to the CNC. Shallow threads, a shallow bolt will hold the sender there, it's going to be almost the same temp as the plug side, in the quench pad but on the bottom instead of top. Since it won't be on a plug, plug removal/installation will be unaffected. And it's something your heads will have an exclusive on.

If you put them on both chambers of both heads, anal guys can have quad CHTs too.
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PostPosted: Mon Apr 14, 2014 4:29 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

But don't put a step in the hole. Twisted Evil Laughing (couldn't resist)
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PostPosted: Mon Apr 14, 2014 5:15 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Just remember to hook the damn wires up backwards on the VDO CHT gauge or your front bumper will catch on fire.
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PostPosted: Mon Apr 14, 2014 5:16 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

[email protected] wrote:
where Esde is thinking of mounting the ring. Machine your heads there (opposite the spark plug), just add it to the CNC. Shallow threads, a shallow bolt will hold the sender there, it's going to be almost the same temp as the plug side, in the quench pad but on the bottom instead of top. Since it won't be on a plug, plug removal/installation will be unaffected.


This is exactly what I was thinking, or wondering if there was a better way. I have tried different places, and agree that the plug is the fastest to read, but the ring mount?, surely we can come up with a better way! The only reason I see to remove the sender is if it doesn't work, and it's most likely to get damaged during removal and installation, so lets find a better way right? I was being very careful, and have put plugs in and out thousands of times without cross threading one, until this time.. so there's my motivation. My engine has a sender under the top center #3 stud, and it reads 50-100 degrees cooler than the plug mounted sender, plus it is slow to respond, so there is further reason to find a better mounting area. The spot I showed really seems to be the best access to the underside of the quench pad, and seems like it would offer an accurate reading. Looks like I'll just have to get busy and do it, I suppose a good test would be a sender on the plug and the "new" location, so that any differential in temperature or response time could be noted. We'll see, I may try to get this done on the stroker I have finished, though it will involve pulling the 3-4 side head back off. Roy, what do you think of the feasibility of machining the area I showed? Would you make a suggestion for size and location of the stud? You can pm me if you want. SD


Last edited by esde on Mon Apr 14, 2014 7:02 pm; edited 1 time in total
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PostPosted: Mon Apr 14, 2014 6:20 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Also, doesn't the ring set the electrode back further into the threads? Is it possible that the threads could be damaged from being exposed?

I don't see a reason to need a head temp reading all the time, (for carb'd regular street engines) unless the temps are on the high side or you're constantly making upgrades/adjustments. I have a Fluke Thermal reader and four K-Type sensors with round ends crimped over the wires and attached the way Edse's is. I take a drive in the client's car and monitor the temps once. That reader is going to be a lot more accurate than a lot of gauges.
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PostPosted: Mon Apr 14, 2014 6:48 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Okay, i'll bite.

Roy says his heads run 15% cooler than other heads.

If he's reading temps further from the combustion chamber than the rest of us then what part of the head runs 15% cooler? A part that matters?

I'd like to see how the 15% data was collected. That would be the difference in running 350 at the chamber and running 300 at the chamber. That's a big claim.

IMHO, a laser temp gun only tells you if you have all four cylinders firing. You cant check any temps while driving that way, and you're only reading surface temp anyway. Also, an IR temp gun will read different temps based on how reflective the surface is as well. Two surfaces will be the exact same temp, but if one is dull and black, and the other is silver, the temp readings on the IR gun will be totally different.

Not to jump into the middle of a bunch of BS, but I call them like I see them.
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PostPosted: Tue Apr 15, 2014 2:33 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Here's what I do, it's probably totally wrong but it helps overcome the OP's problem: I grind a little bit around the plug hole outer bit to fit the sender's crimp and wire . I then pass the sender through the fins till it rests in it's place. I put a little of what i guess you would call J.B. weld (Würthflussigmetall) between the ring and the head, and gobs around the crimp. I then tighten it down with a spark plug well covered in copper grease. When it hardens, I remove the sparkplug, and tap the hole with IIRC 14 x 1.5, so the plug goes in easily, then just always remember to clip off the washer on n°3 plug before installing. Depth was ok when i looked with the head off, sender stays put.
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PostPosted: Fri Apr 18, 2014 4:28 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

How about clamping sensor at exhaust stud..I don't like the misalignment caused by that sensor ring twisting and turning when changing plugs, felt like thread stripping waiting to happen. Also, had to remove spark plug sealing ring so plug would sit flush in combustion chamber.I tried the top sheet metal screw location but temp was reading much lower. My engine is out of car for now to test other location.
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PostPosted: Fri Apr 18, 2014 4:28 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

How about clamping sensor at exhaust stud..I don't like the misalignment caused by that sensor ring twisting and turning when changing plugs, felt like thread stripping waiting to happen. Also, had to remove spark plug sealing ring so plug would sit flush in combustion chamber.I tried the top sheet metal screw location but temp was reading much lower. My engine is out of car for now to test other location.
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PostPosted: Fri Apr 18, 2014 4:58 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

rs58rag wrote:
How about clamping sensor at exhaust stud..I don't like the misalignment caused by that sensor ring twisting and turning when changing plugs, felt like thread stripping waiting to happen. Also, had to remove spark plug sealing ring so plug would sit flush in combustion chamber.I tried the top sheet metal screw location but temp was reading much lower. My engine is out of car for now to test other location.


yeah that would work, however most published head temp data for our cars is read at the spark plug hole. other points of measurement are likely a different temperature, likely cooler than the spark plug location.

of course one must pay attention to ambient temperature when using an uncompensated thermal couple such as sold by VDO. the temperature difference between the hot junction (at the sendor) and the cold junction (at the gage) determines the reading. on a cold day of 30F the gage will read 60F hotter than on a day when the gage is at 90F for a given head temp.

thus folks when they report head temps, you have to ask what was the ambient or was the thermocouple compensated? the readings are meaningless for comparison otherwise
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PostPosted: Fri Apr 18, 2014 7:08 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Roy:

I remember when you first started posting here. You were helpful, and concerned about the reputation of your company. You're a idwest guy in a left coast world. I'm in the rust belt, and appreciate anybody still slogging it out in a hobby populated by a bunch of cheap old tightwads

But every time I log on here now, I find you flaming one potential customer or another, telling them that "they have no proof" that the stuff that has been proven to work better in the kind of high-end builds that everybody aspires to is better. It's kind've ridiculous-- the rest of the world is not frozen in amber like this hobby seems to be sometimes. Just because the "Holy German Engineers" designed something a certain way (80 years ago), or Gene Berg declared something to be "the only way" (40 years ago), doesn't mean the rest of the world stood still on combustion chamber shape, etc.

I watched you defend "the step" until you lost customers over it. I can prove you did, because I was one of them. If some guys want it, and some guys don't, just write a new CNC program, and machine the heads to order (like CB, Revmaster, and pretty much everybody else). Telling customers they don't know what they want is a strange way to sell something.

Now you're here with this. You are defending a certain way of doing something because it's the way you do it. I don't own a foundry, or a machine shop, and I pay (gasp) somebody else to screw my engines together. But I'm not stupid, I have access to good tools, I tune my own stuff, and I've tried the common ways of sensing CHT.

Under the plugs reacts the quickest. It just does. I don't need to build 1500 engines, or even 1 to prove it. The CHT boss, or the EFI sensor location is fine for telling a computer when to stop enrichment, or back off the initial timing (or both) as Stripped 66 said. But a guy could do the same thing (although not as well) with an oil temperature sensor. However, I cannot tell what the temperature of the cylinder head is during transition between idles and mains (yes, I'm still using carbs for now) by sensing oil temperature... or with a sensor under a sheetmetal screw. Oil temperature is great for what it is: telling me how hot the oil is. The stock EFI sensor location is great for telling my crank-fired ignition that I need less initial timing to stay running... and under the spark-plugs is great for telling me all of detailed stuff about what's happening in each cylinder (I know which idle jet is plugged before I even pull off the road). This isn't useless information, but it's not information everybody wants. I do. Telling me I don't doesn't change that.

I was cylinder head shopping for my twin-plug project and your heads were in the running, up until the time of the "step-wars". You'd serve your product better by reverting to the platform you had a couple of years back-- the helpful good guy.

Stuff like this is just silly.
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