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pb_foots
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Joined: April 15, 2010
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Location: Ben Lomond, CA
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 Posted: Sat Apr 12, 2014 6:28 am Post subject: bad rear trans mount? |
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I recently replaced the seal in the engine compartment and the breast plate has always been below the seal. I've never been able to get it to fit properly. I never gave it much thought until I recently read here that worn out rear mounts will allow the motor to sit too low in the back. Makes sense, but is there any way to confirm with the engine in the car?
All tins are OEM, fit well and are not bent, (as far as I can tell)
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bluebus86
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Joined: September 02, 2010
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| Posted: Sat Apr 12, 2014 11:32 am Post subject: |
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grab the tail pipe and shake the motor up and down with them. if the mounts are shot the motor will move a good deal when you shake the pipes. if you shake the pipe and only move the car, then the mounts are likely ok. look for excessive motion between the motor and car body.
if they are shot, get them replaced ASAP as damage can occur if you continue using worn mounts. at leas the mounts are cheap and easy to replace.
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VOLKSWAGNUT
Fastest VW Belt Changer
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| Posted: Sat Apr 12, 2014 11:44 am Post subject: |
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The rear transaxle mounts also can become compressed but may still be intact. In addition the frame horns can sag.
You can always "shim" the rear transaxle mounts.
Your photo.. doesnt reveal much of a problem. It seems the upper and lower part of the dual flap seal is doing its job.
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aka Ken {o\!/o}
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Eric&Barb
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Joined: September 19, 2004
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Location: Olympia Wash Rinse & Repeat
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| Posted: Sat Apr 12, 2014 12:59 pm Post subject: |
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You need to use your fingers to work the lower lip of the seal down under the tin.
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pb_foots
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Joined: April 15, 2010
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Location: Ben Lomond, CA
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| Posted: Sat Apr 12, 2014 4:51 pm Post subject: |
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Sorry, bad perspective. I took a couple more to show the issue. I can work the lower lip under the breast plate, but as you can see it's almost vertical and doesn't stay there. There's about a half inch gap between the centerline of the seal channel and the centerline of the breast plate.
it's not a huge deal, but I would like to know what's causing the offset. The car has about 300K on it, so sagging frame horns may be the issue too. I'd just like to know what's going on and make it right.
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bluebus86
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Eric&Barb
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| Posted: Sat Apr 12, 2014 7:18 pm Post subject: |
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Image/s of the rear transaxle mounts would help.
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pb_foots
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Joined: April 15, 2010
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Location: Ben Lomond, CA
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| Posted: Sat Apr 12, 2014 8:32 pm Post subject: |
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| bluebus86 wrote: |
| that appears low. did you shake the tailpipes???? |
I did, I can't feel any play between the engine and the car. The whole car moves.
I'll climb under there tomorrow and see if I can get a pic. |
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VOLKSWAGNUT
Fastest VW Belt Changer
Joined: October 14, 2007
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Location: Flippin' a Belt........ .... Off-n-On ... NC USA
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| Posted: Sun Apr 13, 2014 6:35 am Post subject: |
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Much better photo angles. Yep a tad low.
If the rear mounts are not detached and loose (rubber broken)) and if they have ever been oil soaked.. like most have been.. consider either collapsed rear mounts or sagging frame horns as a good starting point.
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aka Ken {o\!/o}
Its your vehicle- stop askin' for approval-do what YOU like for cryin' out loud
Better to roll em' how you want and wear em' out-than lettin' em' rot out
Its about the going not the showing
Rebuilt to drive not decorate
WANTED: Local Eatin' Joints, Triple D for TheSamba contributions here http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=570510
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Dr OnHolliday
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Location: was Escondido now San Berdoo
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| Posted: Sun Apr 13, 2014 7:37 am Post subject: |
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Hey - dont use your drafting scale in the greasy garage...
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Dwayne1m
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Joined: December 31, 2011
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| Posted: Sun Apr 13, 2014 7:57 am Post subject: |
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| Sagging framehorns? How often does that happen and what would cause that? Age? Accident? |
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Eric&Barb
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| Posted: Sun Apr 13, 2014 8:14 am Post subject: |
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| Dwayne1m wrote: |
| Sagging framehorns? How often does that happen and what would cause that? Age? Accident? |
Rust, rear ended by a truck, a small but heavy UFO landing, etc... Whichever it was there is something out of wack.
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VOLKSWAGNUT
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Location: Flippin' a Belt........ .... Off-n-On ... NC USA
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| Posted: Sun Apr 13, 2014 9:30 am Post subject: |
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| Eric&Barb wrote: |
| Dwayne1m wrote: |
| Sagging framehorns? How often does that happen and what would cause that? Age? Accident? |
Rust, rear ended by a truck, a small but heavy UFO landing, etc... Whichever it was there is something out of wack. |
Age and metal fatigue as well. When the transaxle is loaded its forcing the frame horns down.
Ever notice how a Beetle squats and or axle hops on hard acceleration..
That action is the opposite reaction of the transaxle (ring and pinion) overcoming the tire to pavement contact.
When the car is accelerating the transaxle is basically trying to flip the entire case (and car) the opposite direction that the wheels are spinning. The transaxle is fixed with mounts to the the frame horns ...which tend to flex down and over time.. will sag even without any crash damage.
Its also built in additional traction advantage..
This opposite force is applied to the transaxle mounts (all)..
The rear tend to compress and if ever oil soaked.. will become even more "squishy".
The front mount will wear the upper edge of its pilot and in addition will tend to rip itself upward.
Its best if you find rear mounts bad.. replace the front as well.
Use quality mounts...and no urethane.
A rear "traction" and or a Mendola/Kafer Bar aids in the reduction of frame horn flex..
The adjustable Mendola/Kafer Bar can help draw the frame horns back up as well.
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aka Ken {o\!/o}
Its your vehicle- stop askin' for approval-do what YOU like for cryin' out loud
Better to roll em' how you want and wear em' out-than lettin' em' rot out
Its about the going not the showing
Rebuilt to drive not decorate
WANTED: Local Eatin' Joints, Triple D for TheSamba contributions here http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=570510
Search "VOLKSWAGNUT" on YouTube since you cant watch a "certain" BELT change video round here
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Dwayne1m
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| Posted: Sun Apr 13, 2014 2:39 pm Post subject: |
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| What is done to correct sagging framehorns? If it is metal fatigue I'm sure you could "push" them back to where they belong, but then they would have to be reinforced. How is that done without it looking like something from a Mad Max movie? |
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Eric&Barb
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Location: Olympia Wash Rinse & Repeat
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| Posted: Sun Apr 13, 2014 2:51 pm Post subject: |
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| Dwayne1m wrote: |
| What is done to correct sagging framehorns? If it is metal fatigue I'm sure you could "push" them back to where they belong, but then they would have to be reinforced. How is that done without it looking like something from a Mad Max movie? |
It is going to depend.
If rusty, then you will need donor parts from much less rusty VW.
If only accident caused, the frame horns might be just fine and just need a good push back in place to last another 40 or so years.
So first would be to see if they are bent . Heck it might be the transaxle cradle is all messed up and just replace that. If the frame horns are bent then inspect for rust. If you find no rust and all the other parts holding the transaxle are fine, then it is time to pull the engine do some measuring to compare to other beetles, and if it turns out bent, bend it back and see if it holds position......
Where are the images of the rear transaxle mounts and hopefully the cradle to boot??? 
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VOLKSWAGNUT
Fastest VW Belt Changer
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Location: Flippin' a Belt........ .... Off-n-On ... NC USA
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| Posted: Sun Apr 13, 2014 3:48 pm Post subject: |
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No real cradle on Beetle.. the engine is just hanging in the wind..
| VOLKSWAGNUT wrote: |
The adjustable Mendola/Kafer Bar can help draw the frame horns back up as well. |
If its a simple case of old.. metal fatigue.. THIS is Much easier ^ and will help keep the horns in in place..
Again this ^ is only after exhausting and eliminating simple worn and squished mounts.
If you simply try to jack and bend up the frame horns.....they will sag once again.
These are examples of the more "simple" Mendola/Kafer Bar
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aka Ken {o\!/o}
Its your vehicle- stop askin' for approval-do what YOU like for cryin' out loud
Better to roll em' how you want and wear em' out-than lettin' em' rot out
Its about the going not the showing
Rebuilt to drive not decorate
WANTED: Local Eatin' Joints, Triple D for TheSamba contributions here http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=570510
Search "VOLKSWAGNUT" on YouTube since you cant watch a "certain" BELT change video round here
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pb_foots
Samba Member
Joined: April 15, 2010
Posts: 1089
Location: Ben Lomond, CA
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| Posted: Sun Apr 13, 2014 4:11 pm Post subject: |
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| Eric&Barb wrote: |
Where are the images of the rear transaxle mounts and hopefully the cradle to boot??? |
Damn man, I have 3 year to spoil, cut me a little slack! 
Curiouser and curiouser. OK first, no accident damage. This was my dad's car, and caught fire in the 80s but never got smooshed. Metal fatigue makes more sense if it's the frame horns.
I measured the mounts, they're right about 1 inch thick at the point equidistant between the two lower mounting bolts. I checked some new ones I have here in the garage, (God knows why, or how long they've been in the box of holding), and they're about the same. Now, the new ones I have may be junk, so I'm not 100% sure they're correct either, but they're new.
here are the pics I took while the boy was napping. I really do appreciate the brainstorm.
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VOLKSWAGNUT
Fastest VW Belt Changer
Joined: October 14, 2007
Posts: 11056
Location: Flippin' a Belt........ .... Off-n-On ... NC USA
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| Posted: Mon Apr 14, 2014 5:26 am Post subject: |
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Mounts look fine... too fine.. 
If it was front mount problem you'd be having other issues as well.
Suspect frame horns sagging.
You could simply use a full contact plate (or a couple plates per) and shim the mounts and engine up a little (on the frame side).
_________________
aka Ken {o\!/o}
Its your vehicle- stop askin' for approval-do what YOU like for cryin' out loud
Better to roll em' how you want and wear em' out-than lettin' em' rot out
Its about the going not the showing
Rebuilt to drive not decorate
WANTED: Local Eatin' Joints, Triple D for TheSamba contributions here http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=570510
Search "VOLKSWAGNUT" on YouTube since you cant watch a "certain" BELT change video round here
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60ragtop
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| Posted: Mon Apr 14, 2014 5:49 am Post subject: |
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you need this type of seal 
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| tasb wrote: |
I've restored a large number too, but I don't toot my horn quite as loud.
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| sb001 wrote: |
| maybe he just snapped cause his car sucked |
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pb_foots
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Joined: April 15, 2010
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Location: Ben Lomond, CA
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| Posted: Mon Apr 14, 2014 7:11 am Post subject: |
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What type of seal is that? I have the one that is split, not sure of the correct term, with one flap going over the top and one underneath. Both this seal and the firewall one are new, replaced last summer.
if there's a band aid (besides duct tape) that I can use to keep the hot air out until I'm ready to pull the engine again, I'm all ears. |
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