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JJM86 Samba Member
Joined: December 19, 2010 Posts: 55 Location: San Francisco
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Posted: Sat Apr 12, 2014 6:49 pm Post subject: Late Rubber Engine Mounts |
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Hey All,
I have a '71 Squareback that I'm gathering a list of things to do while I have the motor out (when I pull it) and would like to refresh the rubber mounts that hold the rear hanger to the body.
For those of you who need a picture, these: http://www.vwispwest.com/311199301B.html?page=1
I've looked around in the classifieds (and obviously ISP has some) but I'm not too keen on replacing 40 year old rubber with 40 year old rubber. Mine are still intact but definitely cracked, so I'd like to do them.
What I have been pondering is the possibility of 'rebuilding' them, i.e. finding new rubber bushings and taking the mounts apart to install the bushings. Trouble is, I don't know of anywhere that would have quality rubber bushings or beefy rubber rounds that would support the load and provide good service life.
Anyone done this or have any input? Honestly, I haven't investigated them closer than inspecting them, so I'm not even sure if they can come apart to do what I'm thinking about. Maybe I'll have to get on that...
Any thoughts, or are people just running their originals?
-Jeremy |
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sub-hatchtim Samba Member
Joined: September 19, 2006 Posts: 2610 Location: Phoenix AZ
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Posted: Sat Apr 12, 2014 7:17 pm Post subject: |
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when I had a late model type3 I was going to modify porsche 911 engine mount's, food for thought _________________ 58' pg/sg silo fridge westy
58 Dove blue singlecab
76 911S |
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grandpa pete Samba Member
Joined: July 06, 2008 Posts: 6426 Location: St. Petersburg, FL
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vlad01 Samba Member
Joined: October 27, 2010 Posts: 3069 Location: Australia
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Posted: Sat Apr 12, 2014 8:20 pm Post subject: |
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sub-hatchtim wrote: |
when I had a late model type3 I was going to modify porsche 911 engine mount's, food for thought |
I have seen a few people do that with good success and a relatively easy mod too. _________________ The best of VW engine development!
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BROWqjuTM0g
71 Aussie notchback, the money pit
92 VP vacationer, old faithful never die
95 VR executive, Restored beyond factory
92 VP S Pack, bought it new old |
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Bobnotch Samba Member
Joined: July 06, 2003 Posts: 22407 Location: Kimball, Mi
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Posted: Sat Apr 12, 2014 8:28 pm Post subject: |
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I was going to say the same thing. Here's Root Werks's solution, as he was the first to try it.
Root_Werks wrote: |
First on the list this weekend was the engine mounts. I know from....1968 uses them? It's a very weak link when you have almost 180foot pounds of torque trying to get 10.5x31 mud tires rolling. The engine has the power to do it, the tranny can take it, but the chassis wasn't. So step one is fixing the mounts. The factory mounts do okay for down force, but have no provisions for up force. So rotational force of the engine/tranny when accerlating or taking off from a stop really puts a twist on the whole thing.
This mod fixed that. I used 911 sport mounts and fab'd up my own hangers to replace the factory ones. This is very, very similar to the set up 911's use so I'm not worried about the strength. If a 200+ hp flat six doesn't break these, my 150hp 2275 won't either.
Next is the windows, maybe tomorrow?
The quick measurements I used that keep the height of the engine correct are:
2 inches from top of new "U" tab mount to center of first hole. Holes are 20mm appart on center. Seems to line up perfect! If someone were to stamp out 100 of these "U" hangers for the 911 sport mounts, this solves any issues of NLA for the hangers and this is a much better setup in my opinion. |
_________________ Bob 65 Notch S with Sunroof
71 Notch ...aka Krunchy; build pics here;
http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=249390 -been busy working
64 T-34 Ghia...aka Wolfie, under construction... http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=412120
Tram wrote: |
"Friends are God's way of apologizing for relatives." |
Tram wrote: |
People keep confusing "restored" and "restroyed". |
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FastyOrange Samba Member
Joined: November 15, 2012 Posts: 110 Location: Greenville, SC
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Posted: Sat Apr 12, 2014 11:08 pm Post subject: |
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There's also the ob_wan method:
http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=553874
ob_wan used polyurethane bushings and fabricated the mounts with a combination of new and old parts. One nice feature of his mounts is that they are adjustable. _________________ 72 FI Fastback
70 FI Fastback (Parts Car) |
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Bobnotch Samba Member
Joined: July 06, 2003 Posts: 22407 Location: Kimball, Mi
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Posted: Sun Apr 13, 2014 8:33 am Post subject: |
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I knew someone else had done another version of the mounts as well, but I couldn't remember their screen name. Plus, I really didn't spend a lot of time searching either. _________________ Bob 65 Notch S with Sunroof
71 Notch ...aka Krunchy; build pics here;
http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=249390 -been busy working
64 T-34 Ghia...aka Wolfie, under construction... http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=412120
Tram wrote: |
"Friends are God's way of apologizing for relatives." |
Tram wrote: |
People keep confusing "restored" and "restroyed". |
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JJM86 Samba Member
Joined: December 19, 2010 Posts: 55 Location: San Francisco
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Posted: Sun Apr 13, 2014 2:59 pm Post subject: |
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Thanks for the great info. It's funny to me that searching for 'engine mount', 'motor mount' and 'mount' in the T-3 forum didn't turn up either of these other guys' solutions. I must be doing something wrong...
Anyhow, it's ironic that several of you mention the 911 mount because I work for a Porsche mechanic and was remarking to him about possibly using the 911 mount. I'd looked at some on a '73 chassis but at first glance it looked like it wouldn't work because of the way their rear hanger works (w/a long bolt). Seeing it done and looking at the replacement part I can see now how a long through bolt combined with either a fabricated end or the salvaged original part to hold the hanger could work.
Nice thing about 911 parts is I could probably even get a real deal Porsche one if was inclined to spend the extra $ (vs Meyle), not to mention the fact that high quality parts are available... It'd be sweet but overkill and prohibitively expensive (at ~$600/pair) to use the 964/993 style ones with silicone grease inside. Maybe for one of you guys running a big stroker or a turbo...
Looks like I'll have to drum up some 911 mounts and start mocking things up. I think this would be the best option for my situation, although I do like the 100% DIY approach that ob_wan took. Looks like a really nice job, too.
Thanks, guys! |
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catbox Samba Member
Joined: May 16, 2007 Posts: 864 Location: Portland, Oregon
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Posted: Tue Apr 15, 2014 12:52 pm Post subject: |
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Those ob style mounts are just what I have been looking for!
Now to just add that to the mile long list of things to do for my car.... _________________ "...these cars were preferred by the racers because the strut front suspension results in far superior handling than the regular torsion bar front end..." - Keith Seume. |
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TommyBoyGomes Samba Member
Joined: May 28, 2005 Posts: 1531 Location: L.A./Dublin, Irl
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Posted: Wed Apr 16, 2014 1:08 pm Post subject: |
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I feel your pain buddy, I looked for NOS engine mounts for 3 years and eventually gave up. Every now and then I would find some used ones, but they were difficult to find and they were all in really rough shape. I have a used one in not-too-bad-but-still-old shape if you want it. _________________ 1969 Squareback, 1776cc
1990 Vanagon Multivan |
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Angelo Amato Samba Member
Joined: January 22, 2005 Posts: 83 Location: Wirral, england
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Posted: Thu Apr 17, 2014 4:54 am Post subject: |
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After discovering the 911 mounts thanks to this forum, I have fitted them to my Fastback.
The twist with mine is they are holding up my type 4 motor, the mounts have come out really well.
will get some pics posted up later. |
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JJM86 Samba Member
Joined: December 19, 2010 Posts: 55 Location: San Francisco
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Posted: Mon Oct 13, 2014 9:03 pm Post subject: |
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I thought I'd send an update to this thread, as I'm currently testing a solution to the engine mount problem that I think is going to work.
In short, I'm using the standard Porsche 911 mounts and large washers combined with a 'yoke end' and some grade 8 hardware from the local hardware store. The piece of the puzzle that I'm testing is the yoke end. I chose this because it seems pretty strong, it's already fabricated, and it fits the end of the engine carrier perfectly (and tightly). I'm curious to see if the single bolt hole holds things tightly enough so that the engine's torsional forces don't shift it around.
Here's a photo of the parts all laid out with their part numbers and prices I paid here in SF at my favorite (but not the cheapest) hardware store. I got the mounts and washers for "free" (I traded labor for parts w/a Porsche mechanic) so I don't know what they'd run retail. I tried to write an explanation in the photo, too but it got messed up and I didn't feel like re-doing the whole thing...
I chose to grind/cut about 10mm off the threaded 'collar' of the yoke end so that the distance between the engine carrier bolt hole and the bottom of the mount would be correct. I tried this without grinding yesterday and had to shim the mount off the body about 10mm, which i don't think is a good long term solution (unless I had a nice plate fabricated). This left about 11mm of threads in the collar, which I think will be good enough (we'll see how this test goes).
I took some photos of it installed but they're on my shop computer, so they'll have to come later. |
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Angelo Amato Samba Member
Joined: January 22, 2005 Posts: 83 Location: Wirral, england
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Posted: Wed Oct 15, 2014 3:18 pm Post subject: about time for some photos.... |
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my version for 911 mounts in a type 3 motor in a type 3 .....
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Angelo Amato Samba Member
Joined: January 22, 2005 Posts: 83 Location: Wirral, england
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Posted: Wed Oct 15, 2014 3:19 pm Post subject: MY setup for a type 4 motor in a type 3 ! |
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MY setup for a type 4 motor in a type 3 !
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Bobnotch Samba Member
Joined: July 06, 2003 Posts: 22407 Location: Kimball, Mi
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Posted: Wed Oct 15, 2014 5:22 pm Post subject: |
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JJM86 wrote: |
I thought I'd send an update to this thread, as I'm currently testing a solution to the engine mount problem that I think is going to work.
In short, I'm using the standard Porsche 911 mounts and large washers combined with a 'yoke end' and some grade 8 hardware from the local hardware store. The piece of the puzzle that I'm testing is the yoke end. I chose this because it seems pretty strong, it's already fabricated, and it fits the end of the engine carrier perfectly (and tightly). I'm curious to see if the single bolt hole holds things tightly enough so that the engine's torsional forces don't shift it around.
Here's a photo of the parts all laid out with their part numbers and prices I paid here in SF at my favorite (but not the cheapest) hardware store. I got the mounts and washers for "free" (I traded labor for parts w/a Porsche mechanic) so I don't know what they'd run retail. I tried to write an explanation in the photo, too but it got messed up and I didn't feel like re-doing the whole thing...
I chose to grind/cut about 10mm off the threaded 'collar' of the yoke end so that the distance between the engine carrier bolt hole and the bottom of the mount would be correct. I tried this without grinding yesterday and had to shim the mount off the body about 10mm, which i don't think is a good long term solution (unless I had a nice plate fabricated). This left about 11mm of threads in the collar, which I think will be good enough (we'll see how this test goes).
I took some photos of it installed but they're on my shop computer, so they'll have to come later. |
I'd be concerned whether the yoke has 2 sets of "thru bolt" holes, as you really need to use 2 bolts on each side. VW did this in case 1 fell out, you'd still have the second there as a safety feature. If you're only using 1 thru bolt, and it falls out, or shears, the engine will fall on the ground on that side. Just something to keep in mind. _________________ Bob 65 Notch S with Sunroof
71 Notch ...aka Krunchy; build pics here;
http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=249390 -been busy working
64 T-34 Ghia...aka Wolfie, under construction... http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=412120
Tram wrote: |
"Friends are God's way of apologizing for relatives." |
Tram wrote: |
People keep confusing "restored" and "restroyed". |
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W1K1 Samba Member
Joined: March 04, 2004 Posts: 4916 Location: Southern AB
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Bobnotch Samba Member
Joined: July 06, 2003 Posts: 22407 Location: Kimball, Mi
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Posted: Thu Oct 16, 2014 2:31 pm Post subject: |
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Those could work, but you'd have to run the numbers to be sure. Without having one sitting out of the car, I couldn't tell you which one would work. _________________ Bob 65 Notch S with Sunroof
71 Notch ...aka Krunchy; build pics here;
http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=249390 -been busy working
64 T-34 Ghia...aka Wolfie, under construction... http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=412120
Tram wrote: |
"Friends are God's way of apologizing for relatives." |
Tram wrote: |
People keep confusing "restored" and "restroyed". |
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Angelo Amato Samba Member
Joined: January 22, 2005 Posts: 83 Location: Wirral, england
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Posted: Fri Oct 17, 2014 7:28 am Post subject: |
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The 911 ones look made for the type 3 and could pass as oe. Dont know why you look at any other options t.b.h. |
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JJM86 Samba Member
Joined: December 19, 2010 Posts: 55 Location: San Francisco
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Posted: Mon Oct 20, 2014 9:17 pm Post subject: |
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Those vibration mounts look like they could work. I chose to go w/the 911 ones partly because they were available to me and in case I ever have to replace them, they will be easy to find again. Probly won't have to replace them, though...
Here are some photos of the mount in the car:
From the engine compartment
Underneath (x2)
Detail of bolt threading through yoke end
I'm going to try setting up the other side this week/weekend to see how they perform together. So far so good with one side installed. |
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JJM86 Samba Member
Joined: December 19, 2010 Posts: 55 Location: San Francisco
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Posted: Mon Oct 20, 2014 9:28 pm Post subject: |
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Bobnotch, that's a good point about having two through bolts as an added safety feature. Something I hadn't considered before. At this point, I'm still in trial mode, with one new mount and one original, to see if the new setup has problems. I was debating drilling a smaller diameter hole (smaller than the manufactured one) in the yoke end and putting a hardened pin or smaller high grade bolt through there in the top hole, if it seemed like it needed it. I'm not too keen on drilling a 2nd hole but your comment makes me think I should set up something as a fail safe, in case the single bolt did give way.
Hmmm.... |
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