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What is causing my high idle?
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J1
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PostPosted: Sun Apr 13, 2014 11:45 pm    Post subject: What is causing my high idle? Reply with quote

Thx for those willing to read thru this.

Here's how the high idle started:
- Valve clearance adjusted
- Oil changed
- Compression tested
- Spark plugs gapped
- Belt tension adjusted
- Then I started messing with the carb and the timing. Hard to say exactly what I did because I was playing with both simultaneously.

So now min idle is a sputter-y 1000, warmed up, at fully open choke. So then:
- Pulled carb & cleaned. Not rebuild or new gaskets, just cleaned (took apart float, volume control screw, bypass screw, and that faucet-looking thingy).
- Replaced volume control screw o-ring since it was shredded to nothing (slightly tight fit).
- Choke adjusted
- Throttle lever screw and cable adjusted so it's at lowest possible point.
- Doesn't appear to be any leaks on carb.

Maybe relevant
- Volume control screw with new o-ring doesn't appear to impact idle
- 34 PICT 3
- 009, electronic ignition

I know I could just send the carb in for a full rebuild, but it seemed to be working fine before I messed with it, plus I would've guessed most carb problems cause LOW idle.

So what did I do wrong? Is it likely the carb or could it be something else?
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Woreign
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PostPosted: Mon Apr 14, 2014 6:05 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

You might want to start by re-adjusting the carb. Here are some easy to follow steps: http://www.vw-resource.com/34pict3.html

Timing and dwell can also affect your idle speed, so be sure to double-check these as well.
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J1
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PostPosted: Mon Apr 14, 2014 10:42 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Woreign wrote:
You might want to start by re-adjusting the carb. Here are some easy to follow steps: http://www.vw-resource.com/34pict3.html


Yes, I've gone thru those steps. The 2.5 turns and all. Thx.

For those who understandably don't want to read thru all of the above, I think my bottom line question is "what are some common causes of HIGH idle?" I realize there may be too many variables which is why I thought providing some details of what I did may narrow down the field. Thx.
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kingkarmann
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PostPosted: Mon Apr 14, 2014 11:08 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Woreign wrote:
You might want to start by re-adjusting the carb. Here are some easy to follow steps: http://www.vw-resource.com/34pict3.html

Timing and dwell can also affect your idle speed, so be sure to double-check these as well.

How are you checking timing?
Are you using a timing light?
Are you checking both static and dynamic timing?
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PostPosted: Mon Apr 14, 2014 11:26 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

^^^Agree. Valves, points, and timing before touching the carb. There are a handful of potential things causing your idle condition, but you gotta start at square one. I have never run an 009 and stock carb, only with dual Kadrons. You will get a bit of hesitation down low...but thats not your prob right now...
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J1
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PostPosted: Mon Apr 14, 2014 11:33 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

kingkarmann wrote:
How are you checking timing?
Are you using a timing light?
Are you checking both static and dynamic timing?


Dynamic, with timing light. Have not done static.

But I'm not even worried about timing yet since I'm trying to first get my idle down to 850 so that I can then move on to setting timing correctly.
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PostPosted: Mon Apr 14, 2014 11:35 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Also, your pertronix 009 distributor is timed to 30-32 degrees of advance after top dead center AFTC (which by the way, is about full advance for the 009) at 3000 rpm. This can really only be accurately done with a timing light. The advance at idle should fall somewhere around 5-7.5 degrees before top dead center or BTDC.
You will notice as you rotate the 009 the the rpms change. You might be initially advanced too far thus explaining the high idle.
After you dial in the 009 timing then (if you need too) you can move on the carb.
Also with a pertronix or other electronic static timing isn't really done.
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PostPosted: Mon Apr 14, 2014 12:24 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

kingkarmann wrote:
Also, your pertronix 009 distributor is timed to 30-32 degrees of advance after top dead center AFTC (which by the way, is about full advance for the 009) at 3000 rpm. This can really only be accurately done with a timing light. The advance at idle should fall somewhere around 5-7.5 degrees before top dead center or BTDC.


Slap to forehead! The bit of info I was missing is that 009 is timed differently and I do see lots of posts about that. But I see some inconsistencies in ATDC vs BTDC... so let me just clarify...

Is this correct?
First, at 3000 rpm: 30-32 degrees BTDC (mark to the right of TDC)
Then at idle: it should fall around 5-7.5 degrees BTDC (mark to the right of TDC)
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PostPosted: Mon Apr 14, 2014 1:15 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Jawon wrote:
kingkarmann wrote:
Also, your pertronix 009 distributor is timed to 30-32 degrees of advance after top dead center AFTC (which by the way, is about full advance for the 009) at 3000 rpm. This can really only be accurately done with a timing light. The advance at idle should fall somewhere around 5-7.5 degrees before top dead center or BTDC.


Slap to forehead! The bit of info I was missing is that 009 is timed differently and I do see lots of posts about that. But I see some inconsistencies in ATDC vs BTDC... so let me just clarify...

Is this correct?
First, at 3000 rpm: 30-32 degrees After ATDC (mark to the right of TDC)
Then at idle: it should fall around 5-7.5 degrees BTDC (mark to the left of TDC)

Fixed ^^^^

Also read this
http://www.vw-resource.com/009_dizzy.html
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PostPosted: Mon Apr 14, 2014 1:21 pm    Post subject: you Reply with quote

I should clarify something;
You are looking for about 30 - 32 degrees of FULL advance. So........
Your Advance at 3000-3200 rpm may max out at about 23-25 degrees total ATDC advance once you subtract the 5-7 degrees of BTDC at idle. Hope this makes sense.
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PostPosted: Mon Apr 14, 2014 1:28 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
RE: "First, at 3000 rpm: 30-32 degrees After ATDC (mark to the right of TDC)"
??? Timing at 3000rpm should be 30-32 BTDC
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PostPosted: Mon Apr 14, 2014 1:31 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

kingkarmann wrote:
Jawon wrote:
kingkarmann wrote:
Also, your pertronix 009 distributor is timed to 30-32 degrees of advance after top dead center AFTC (which by the way, is about full advance for the 009) at 3000 rpm. This can really only be accurately done with a timing light. The advance at idle should fall somewhere around 5-7.5 degrees before top dead center or BTDC.


Slap to forehead! The bit of info I was missing is that 009 is timed differently and I do see lots of posts about that. But I see some inconsistencies in ATDC vs BTDC... so let me just clarify...

Is this correct?
First, at 3000 rpm: 30-32 degrees After ATDC (mark to the right of TDC)
Then at idle: it should fall around 5-7.5 degrees BTDC (mark to the left of TDC)

Fixed ^^^^

Also read this
http://www.vw-resource.com/009_dizzy.html

After top dead center is retard... the spark is igniting after the piston has already started on the downstroke. Before top dead center is advance. The correct timing at 3000 rpm will be 30 to 32 degrees before top dead center. At idle, the mechanical advance will go away, leaving him with anywhere from 5 to 7.5 degrees of ignition advance.
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PostPosted: Mon Apr 14, 2014 1:54 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Altema wrote:
kingkarmann wrote:
Jawon wrote:
kingkarmann wrote:
Also, your pertronix 009 distributor is timed to 30-32 degrees of advance after top dead center AFTC (which by the way, is about full advance for the 009) at 3000 rpm. This can really only be accurately done with a timing light. The advance at idle should fall somewhere around 5-7.5 degrees before top dead center or BTDC.


Slap to forehead! The bit of info I was missing is that 009 is timed differently and I do see lots of posts about that. But I see some inconsistencies in ATDC vs BTDC... so let me just clarify...

Is this correct?
First, at 3000 rpm: 30-32 degrees After ATDC (mark to the right of TDC)
Then at idle: it should fall around 5-7.5 degrees BTDC (mark to the left of TDC)

Fixed ^^^^

Also read this
http://www.vw-resource.com/009_dizzy.html

After top dead center is retard... the spark is igniting after the piston has already started on the downstroke. Before top dead center is advance. The correct timing at 3000 rpm will be 30 to 32 degrees before top dead center. At idle, the mechanical advance will go away, leaving him with anywhere from 5 to 7.5 degrees of ignition advance.

There ya go Cool
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PostPosted: Mon Apr 14, 2014 2:03 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Lionhart94010 wrote:
Quote:
RE: "First, at 3000 rpm: 30-32 degrees After ATDC (mark to the right of TDC)"
??? Timing at 3000rpm should be 30-32 BTDC

Left / Right
up / down
Before / After?
I'm better with pics Laughing
For Clarity:

Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.

Sorry for the mix-up
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Lionhart94010
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PostPosted: Mon Apr 14, 2014 2:10 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

kingkarmann wrote:
Lionhart94010 wrote:
Quote:
RE: "First, at 3000 rpm: 30-32 degrees After ATDC (mark to the right of TDC)"
??? Timing at 3000rpm should be 30-32 BTDC

Left / Right
up / down
Before / After?
I'm better with pics Laughing
For Clarity:

Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.

Sorry for the mix-up


Like your picture above :0)
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PostPosted: Mon Apr 14, 2014 3:35 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thx all. I think I got it.

So in that picture, my stock dizzy would be timed using the 5 degree ATDC notch, at idle.

BUT since I have a 009, I should disregard the notch and set a mark near the 32 degree BTDC and try to get it to the crankcase split while at 3000 rpm. And then at idle, the 7.5 BTDC mark should end up near the crankcase split.

Thx! If no further post, consider my high idle issue solved. Though I'm usually not that lucky.
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PostPosted: Mon Apr 14, 2014 4:08 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Very Happy no, now you have valves set, points set and engine timed. Now you can adjust the carb. Smile
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PostPosted: Tue Apr 15, 2014 12:52 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

After adjusting the timing of my 009 (30-32 degrees BTDC @ full throttle) and then adjusting the carb (2.5 turns out, etc), my idle is still at about 1100. It's def running much smoother and quieter tho.

Some things that may be worth noting...
- Volume control screw seems to do nothing to idle speed, even screwed all the way in or very far out.
- Bypass screw is all the way in... the new o-ring is pretty tight so could that be an issue?
- Pulley is at 15-20 degrees BTDC @ idle, but I'm assuming when idle goes down to the target 850, pulley will also go down to the desired 5-10 degrees BTDC.

I believe I've done all the prereq adjustments as listed in my original post or did I miss something?

Other common culprits I should look at? Time to just send in the carb for a rebuild?
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PostPosted: Tue Apr 15, 2014 1:27 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Some more reading that may apply in your situation:

http://www.aircooledtech.com/34pict3_modification/

Take off the air filter and look down the top of the carb and see if there is a large hole in the butterfly valve...
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PostPosted: Wed Apr 16, 2014 6:55 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Check to see that your shredded fast idle o-ring didn't leave a chunk behind.

Check for air leaks.

Check slow jet for obstructions.
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