71 Squareback won't start

Kjarahz · Posted: Mon Apr 14, 2014 6:22 am Post subject: 71 Squareback won't start

After a long process of replacing the old worn out engine with a re-manned one, we've run into a snag. It will not start. We aren't quite sure about the engine wiring but seem to have it all hooked up properly (diagram anywhere?) We have seen the one in the book and have referenced that but my buddy is requesting an engine wiring diagram.

We've added external fuel and it will pop but not start, we believe it's a timing problem. So, me being a computer technician not a car technician, I'm asking you guys.

What do you suggest? My buddy is a certified technician but not for Volkswagons. Anyway, guide us into some kind of correct direction if possible, would really like to see this thing run again...it's been downed for a handful of months. It's worth noting the other engine started up great, just needed to be rebuilt and a re-manned was easier since the other was just...nasty...

Mike Fisher · Posted: Mon Apr 14, 2014 7:32 am Post subject:

The wiring diagram in the Bentley manual is the Only diagram. It helps to blow it up to 11"X17" at Kinkos & have it laminated. Troubleshoot following the Bentley procedures. Will all four injectors pulse/spray gas intermittently on top of your engine w/coil unplugged?
http://www.thesamba.com/vw/archives/info/wiring/type3_71.jpg
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Kjarahz · Posted: Mon Apr 14, 2014 7:56 am Post subject:

That diagram shows a little different setup than we had regarding the firing order. Changed it but it still did the same thing.

My buddy requested some information regarding the firing order if anyone has it. We didn't take the plugs off the cap and expected it to be in the correct order, we changed two after looking at this diagram and it still did nothing however.

Can you provide information regarding the order and how it should be setup, perhaps that's wrong.

The other thing you've asked won't happen until later when he's not working.

grandpa pete · Posted: Mon Apr 14, 2014 7:58 am Post subject:

tell your mechanic friend to take your computer and go to

www.vw-resource.com/troubleshooting.html#engine Shocked

when you get stuck come back to THE SAMBA and ask questions Cool

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Mike Fisher · Posted: Mon Apr 14, 2014 8:09 am Post subject:

1432 firing order & plug locations stamped on the 2 tins
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69 FI/AT square Daily Driver
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two 57 oval ragtops sold
'68 Karmann Ghia sold

Society is like stew. If you don't keep it stirred up you end up with a lot of scum on the top! - Russ_Wolfe/Edward Abbey

Kjarahz · Posted: Mon Apr 14, 2014 8:17 am Post subject:

He said he knows that but would like to know what is #1 on the cap, in relation to the vacuum advice. I think I just didn't ask the right question.

Also what direction is the rotation of the distributor.

Depending on these answers I think we will find it was correct and will be back at the start of the first post, but we know at least.

ibjack · Posted: Mon Apr 14, 2014 9:02 am Post subject:

Take a picture or two of the engine and you'll be surprised how much that helps get your questions answered.
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Kjarahz · Posted: Mon Apr 14, 2014 9:10 am Post subject:

Here are the pictures, please note we changed the plugs around. I believe they were correct before but perhaps someone can see other issues that are preventing it from starting. And also give us the correct plug locations so we can be sure it's correct.

Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.

http://i.imgur.com/bh3yWdA.jpg

Mike Fisher · Posted: Mon Apr 14, 2014 9:23 am Post subject:

#1 is supposed to point at the 'notch' in the distributor body for a 3 degree camshaft variation for extra cooling on the #3 cylinder. In fact the car will run excellent with #1 in any of the 4 positions.
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https://imgur.com/user/FisherSquareback/posts
69 FI/AT square Daily Driver
66 sunroof,67,70,71,71,71AT,72,72AT,73 Parts
two 57 oval ragtops sold
'68 Karmann Ghia sold

Society is like stew. If you don't keep it stirred up you end up with a lot of scum on the top! - Russ_Wolfe/Edward Abbey

Bobnotch · Posted: Mon Apr 14, 2014 9:27 am Post subject:

If I had to make a SWAG, I'd say the distributor drive was installed as a t-1 set up, and the engine is now 180* out of time. This IS very common of places that are used to building T-1 engines. Ususally on a t-3 engine #1 plug wire is at about 5 or 7 o'clock (there's a line scribed on the distributor housing rim for #1). And right now your #1 plug wire is at 12 o'clock.

Just so you guys know, you can't just "rotate the plug wires around the cap", as the distributor also has a 2nd set of points which trigger the FI injectors. It has to be set correctly.
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Kjarahz · Posted: Mon Apr 14, 2014 9:57 am Post subject:

Tram · Posted: Mon Apr 14, 2014 11:18 am Post subject:

Pull the cap and turn the engine. Make sure the rotor is spinning.
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KTPhil · Posted: Mon Apr 14, 2014 12:50 pm Post subject:

Aside from ignition issues being discussed, and aside from the missing large cooling hoses on each end of the fan shroud (which I assume you will install once you get it to fire up), I see the hose from the intake air distributor to the AAR is missing. If you have that large a vacuum leak in the IAD that might mess up your mixture and make it hard to start.

Bobnotch · Posted: Mon Apr 14, 2014 9:22 pm Post subject:

Kjarahz · Posted: Tue Apr 15, 2014 6:40 am Post subject:

No problems Bobnotch, appears the timing is just a notch off.

When putting pressure on the distributor and moving it a bit it would actually try to fire. So it's now on hold until he has time to pull that section apart a bit and adjust the timing.

With all of this said it seems the injectors aren't firing off, hoping the FI isn't having issues as it wasn't before replacing the motor. I would assume no damage was done to the harness and it should be working fine but we don't really see any signs of life...is this normal? Is the timing messing with the FI somehow?

I hope so, if I need to switch to carbs this project is on hold for awhile Confused

Tram · Posted: Tue Apr 15, 2014 11:58 am Post subject:

KTPhil · Posted: Tue Apr 15, 2014 12:51 pm Post subject:

I would expect it to run poorly with the wires 90 out of phase, but in real world use, apparently it is not critical.

At some point (about '72 model) VW changed the squirt timing such that it injected while the valve was still closed for some cylinders. It may have been done for production economy or maybe for emissions, but it apparently ran fine that way.

Perhaps clocking the wires wrong does much the same thing to little harm.

I'd set it right ASAP because you don't need extra variables complicating your diagnosis.

Mike Fisher · Posted: Tue Apr 15, 2014 1:12 pm Post subject:

Clocking the wires 90* has also been used when the condenser or vacuum canister hits and won't allow proper timing for the engine to run.
_________________
https://imgur.com/user/FisherSquareback/posts
69 FI/AT square Daily Driver
66 sunroof,67,70,71,71,71AT,72,72AT,73 Parts
two 57 oval ragtops sold
'68 Karmann Ghia sold

Society is like stew. If you don't keep it stirred up you end up with a lot of scum on the top! - Russ_Wolfe/Edward Abbey

Tram · Posted: Tue Apr 15, 2014 1:30 pm Post subject:

Kjarahz · Posted: Tue Apr 15, 2014 1:37 pm Post subject:

Getting ready to make the timing adjustment in an hour, hopefully it fixes the issues and the FI is fine. If so it will be running this week...


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