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Sir Sam Samba Member
Joined: July 19, 2009 Posts: 1669 Location: Fort Collins Colorado!
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Posted: Mon Sep 14, 2015 9:23 pm Post subject: |
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rmcd wrote: |
The small car kit comes with the switch and drier. The instructions for the kit also size the AC hoses you will need to buy. The coolant hoses and valve are included with the kit.
I'd recommend you wait on purchasing the hose until you get the kit. Then buy the hose AND fittings from the shop that will make your hoses. The fittings can be proprietary to the hose mfr. |
Thanks for the info, the small car page is a little light on info for the kit(and admittedly I have not directly contacted them yet).
I plan to make all the hoses myself, and I have a fairly limited bit of time at home to get this wrapped up(I have spent more time outside of the US since June than I have in the US). So I want to order what I will need or might need now so I have it next week and can get it installed. If that means I buy extra or parts I dont need that is lost $$$, then so be it.
Its more important to me right now to figure out what I might need and order it than to wait and figure out exactly what I need and not get the job done while I have a couple of weeks at home. _________________ '91 Carat Westy
87' Syncro + '87 Westy conversion coming soon |
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rmcd Samba Member
Joined: October 29, 2010 Posts: 1348 Location: PNW - its a dry rain.
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Posted: Mon Sep 14, 2015 9:46 pm Post subject: |
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ill grab my instructions from my shop visit later this week and will share the parts list and get the hose sizes. i wont post the full 30 page instructions cause that is smallcar intelectual property. _________________ VW LT40 build. Like a Vanagon but 30% larger in every direction and 40% slower even in metric.
https://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=749359&highlight= |
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PDX_Greg Samba Member
Joined: August 26, 2012 Posts: 39 Location: Portland, OR
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Posted: Mon Sep 14, 2015 11:46 pm Post subject: |
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Glad I found this thread...been thinking about adding dash air for sometime. PO pretty much ripped out everything but the compressor and condenser....Any advice on how to test if these two units are any good? _________________ 1987 Full Camper Westfalia, 2.1 WBX |
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kourt Samba Member
Joined: August 13, 2013 Posts: 1922 Location: Austin, TX
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Posted: Tue Sep 15, 2015 4:43 am Post subject: |
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Howdy Sir Sam and others,
The Small Car kit doesn't come with a receiver/drier, and it only comes with heater hoses for the coolant connections to the heater core. It does come with a trinary switch. The kit does not supply any AC fittings at all--you need to be prepared to fabricate those fittings entirely on your own.
You'll need to supply all the refrigerant hoses yourself. If you don't have any of the Mastercool tools for making compressed o-ring connectors you should consider the Eaton EZ Clip system. In the end both systems cost about the same, but the EZ clip system might be a time saver during installation.
You will need refrigerant hose in three sizes, #6, #8 and #10. The lengths from the back of the van (compressor) to the front of the van (condenser, evaporator) will be long. Those are #8 and #10 hoses. I would buy at least 20 feet of each, and probably more like 25 feet in case you make mistakes. I also bought 15 feet of #6 hose. I got all my hose and fittings from:
https://coldhose.com
You must consider where to run those hoses to minimize damage from road debris, vibration, and still allow regular maintenance, spare tire access, etc. Hoses must be secured to the body. You will need to visualize your fittings and how they turn coming out of components in tight spaces, and know what type of fittings are available to you to make those special connections. Most of that can be learned by studying the Coldhose website inventory.
The Vanagon originally had its receiver/drier (in later models) located in the driver side rear wheel well. The Small Car system requires the r/d to be moved forward. I put mine behind the passenger side headlight, as have many others. Working in the confines of the area behind the headlight, don't waste your time with the OE Behr r/d in that area... instead, buy a universal r/d from Coldhose (they sell a mounting bracket on the same page).
Plan your system with as few joints in the fittings as possible. I bought compressor fittings that have the R134 ports brazed on at 90 degree angles, thus reducing the joint count significantly. You need to carefully consider how you will charge the system--and I recommend putting the ports right at the compressor, if you have room.
Somewhere along the line, when buying my Mastercool tools (manual fitting crimper, vacuum pump, gauge set) I also received a Mastercool textbook on how AC systems work. It had specific examples of AC systems from every major vehicle manufacturer, plus specifications for certain lines of compressors, expansion valves, refrigerants, etc. That book was a great reference to have for the basic theory and setup of AC systems, and you'll want to have something like that for reference. AC systems demand attention to detail and a careful understanding of what's going on to make them work properly.
If you've never built AC hose or worked with AC systems before, you're going to need a lot of time to do this project. There will be a learning curve where you are taking a deep breath and jumping in to unknown territory. The nuances of the Small Car system make this project even more time consuming--the modifications to the dashboard, the care needed in fitting the blower in the dash properly, fixing other problems you encounter/cause while working in the dash, etc. Think multiple weekends in terms of time commitment.
Get comfortable with the idea of removing and installing the dashboard at least three times. Make sure you have work surfaces that won't scratch up the dashboard while you are grinding away ribs on its underside.
Enjoy your project.
kourt |
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Sir Sam Samba Member
Joined: July 19, 2009 Posts: 1669 Location: Fort Collins Colorado!
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Posted: Thu Sep 17, 2015 8:42 pm Post subject: |
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Hey kourt thanks for the info. I'm pretty familiar with AC systems, I've done a lot of repair work on Auto AC and I have a pretty good understanding I got out of my thermodynamics and heat and mass trasfer classes in school.
I've also got the AC evac and recharge equipment from all the other work I have done, buying the hose crimper was the last bit I needed for some other AC projects for engine swaps.
After getting some information from Mao I whipped out visio and did this based on the SVX compressor, not sure if other subi compressors are different. I'm going to order some extra fittings and put up a parts list of what I end up using when I am done.
My conceptual layout as of now:
_________________ '91 Carat Westy
87' Syncro + '87 Westy conversion coming soon
Last edited by Sir Sam on Fri Sep 18, 2015 8:15 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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ALIKA T3 Samba Member
Joined: July 30, 2009 Posts: 6316 Location: Honolulu,Hawaii and France
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Posted: Thu Sep 17, 2015 10:17 pm Post subject: |
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Sir Sam wrote: |
Hey kourt thanks for the info. I'm pretty familiar with AC systems, I've done a lot of repair work on Auto AC and I have a pretty good understanding I got out of my thermodynamics and heat and mass trasfer classes in school.
I've also got the AC evac and recharge equipment from all the other work I have done, buying the hose crimper was the last bit I needed for some other AC projects for engine swaps.
After getting some information from Mao I whipped out visio and did this based on the SVX compressor, not sure if other subi compressors are different. I'm going to order some extra fittings and put up a parts list of what I end up using when I am done.
My conceptual layout as of now(just noticed I made a mistake, that should be #12 ferrule for stock line):
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That's bad ass work! I cannot wait for the complete parts list _________________ Silicone Steering Boots and 930 Cv boots for sale in the classifieds.
Syncro transmission upgrade parts in the Classifieds.
Subaru EJ22+UN1 5 speed transmission
http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=416343
Syncro http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=4...num+gadget |
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nilza Samba Member
Joined: May 21, 2007 Posts: 342 Location: brisbane australia
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Posted: Fri Sep 18, 2015 1:40 am Post subject: |
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Hi guys, I posted a few pages back as I am doing a GEN4 install aswell (though not a small car kit)
I have been dragging my feet abit as it has been done and dusted for a few months now.
It works a treat! my vent temps are around the 2 degree mark depending on the outside temp. though because of the size of the van I still think if you plan on cooling the rear passengers a second evaporator is needed in the back.
As mentioned earlier, the not having a fresh air vent now does get old real quick. I really didn't think I would miss it, but I do.
Anyways, this is what I ended up doing with my dash
_________________ still floating around the web somewhere |
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kourt Samba Member
Joined: August 13, 2013 Posts: 1922 Location: Austin, TX
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Posted: Fri Sep 18, 2015 4:55 am Post subject: |
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Sir Sam wrote: |
My conceptual layout as of now(just noticed I made a mistake, that should be #12 ferrule for stock line): |
That is the same sort of layout I did with my system. Illustrating everything as you've done really helps when it's time to order all those fittings... and then when you have a bag of random fittings the layout helps you install everything where it's needed.
Great work... and keep documenting your progress. Looking forward to reading more.
kourt |
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Sir Sam Samba Member
Joined: July 19, 2009 Posts: 1669 Location: Fort Collins Colorado!
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Posted: Fri Sep 18, 2015 6:02 am Post subject: |
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Hey Kourt you said:
kourt wrote: |
I bought compressor fittings that have the R134 ports brazed on at 90 degree angles |
I poked around on coldhose but didn't see them, where did you get those fittings? _________________ '91 Carat Westy
87' Syncro + '87 Westy conversion coming soon |
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kourt Samba Member
Joined: August 13, 2013 Posts: 1922 Location: Austin, TX
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Sir Sam Samba Member
Joined: July 19, 2009 Posts: 1669 Location: Fort Collins Colorado!
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Posted: Fri Sep 18, 2015 11:30 am Post subject: |
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Ah kourt thanks I understand now. Yes I have seen the machine blocks to convert them. I misunderstood and it sounded like you have found the compressor specific connection to hose.
Nostalgicair has fittings for what you are describing, though I am not sure what ones I need to my application. I'll probably push ahead with reusing the stock connections.
My stock suction side(LP) hose has the fitting, but the discharge side(HP) does not. I almost never use the discharge side fitting, but it would be good to have it. I might look at some options for a 90degree fitting for the condenser with the HP side, or a inline HP fitting I can put in the #8 hose in the engine bay. _________________ '91 Carat Westy
87' Syncro + '87 Westy conversion coming soon |
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Sir Sam Samba Member
Joined: July 19, 2009 Posts: 1669 Location: Fort Collins Colorado!
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Posted: Mon Oct 05, 2015 7:51 pm Post subject: |
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So I've gotten pretty far into my install, I've tried to document what it takes since there hasnt been much posted on this before.
I use this master cool hose crimper purchased from amazon:
http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B000WBQ4U2?psc=1&...ge_o05_s00
The hose crimper works great and is very fast. I've got several projects in the future that I can continue to use it on.
I am using this universal drier from coldhose.com, pictured next to the trinary switch that comes with the smallcar kit.
Here is the AC box, on the left are 4 output tubes for the main vents, the two outputs on the top side of the photo are for the floor, and on the bottom side of the photo are the defrost vents.
This is the 16x22 condensor that howesight used, I mounted it with rubber corks drilled through the center on the top to what used to be the fresh air inlet, and some cable clamps on the bottom.
I reused the stock subaru compressor fittings, I cut off the old ferrules and crimped on new ones. I ran into a problem with the large #12 hose ferrule, when the hose slipped over the barb it expanded enough that the ferrule was too small! It took some time but I managed to expand it with a combined of pipe expander from harbor freight and some sockets tapped into the ferrule.
Rear hoses crimped:
Side note, new light(mounts perfect on the existing bolts)!
Have more to post, update my layout diagram, writeup a part list. _________________ '91 Carat Westy
87' Syncro + '87 Westy conversion coming soon |
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Sir Sam Samba Member
Joined: July 19, 2009 Posts: 1669 Location: Fort Collins Colorado!
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Posted: Tue Oct 06, 2015 7:56 am Post subject: |
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Here you can see the fresh air inlet with the blocking plate below it. I sealed it with some compressible foam weatherstripping. RTV would work well too.
Small car provides some small screws in the kit, but they are too small for the holes cut in the block off plate, I'm not sure what they intended to be used here.
Here is where I mounted my drier setup, I used a 45* off the upper of the condenser and a 90 on the drier. There is lots of room and possibilities to place the drier in the area so different fitting angle or placement can be picked.
Still leaves clearance to the bleed screw:
45 degree off the bottom to the compressor discharge side.
This is the backside of the box, the heater hoses connect up to the aluminum barbed ends, The expansion valve is tied to the caution tag, and then the suction side to the compressor is close to the bench surface.
More hoses built and installed.
Drilling the dash for the new controls, since the rear heater is getting pulled we mounted it further left to cover the rear heater switch. With the center radio option this meant the passenger vent had clearance issues witha support rib on the dash, we had to cut that then.
Stuff to be cutaway:
Controls installed, vent is very close to the driver:
_________________ '91 Carat Westy
87' Syncro + '87 Westy conversion coming soon |
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sanchius Samba Member
Joined: May 03, 2007 Posts: 1446 Location: IN
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Posted: Tue Oct 06, 2015 8:26 am Post subject: |
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Sam,
It may be too late in the process, but I have a spare front heater box taking up too much room here that I can send up to FoCo with my daughter next time she's here. In addition to being a test mule for your installation, you could use it to try out some of the alternative fresh air venting schemes that have been proposed here in the past _________________ The Syncro years (2005-16) - The 2WD years (2017-23) - Westy & WBX rebuild spreadsheet - Sanchius & Tuna: The Video
Your gold star membership keeps this awesome list going! |
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ALIKA T3 Samba Member
Joined: July 30, 2009 Posts: 6316 Location: Honolulu,Hawaii and France
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Sir Sam Samba Member
Joined: July 19, 2009 Posts: 1669 Location: Fort Collins Colorado!
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Posted: Tue Oct 06, 2015 12:59 pm Post subject: |
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ALIKA T3 wrote: |
Sir Sam,
thank you for your valuable contribution!
It makes me more confident into installing mine now. I've ordered it recently, waiting on it.
Will you take a picture of the clearance behind the center mount radio location?
Cheers! |
No problem, I'll get more photos today. Radio clearance is tight.
I've been working on cleaning up old wiring from installing lights and previous radio(it was a mess). And then getting the new harness and other wiring I needed to add in. You have to supply your own wiring and connectors for the trinary switch for the fan control and the compressor clutch control. That took a little time to layout. I reused some of the old rear AC connections to run a wire back for the compressor control.
I've pulled a vacuum on the system and its holding. I need to add oil to the system. Then pull a vacuum again.
This might be the last time I install the dash and finialize the hookups. I think tomorrow I will end up sourcing a mechless radio and installing it. _________________ '91 Carat Westy
87' Syncro + '87 Westy conversion coming soon |
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rmcd Samba Member
Joined: October 29, 2010 Posts: 1348 Location: PNW - its a dry rain.
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Posted: Tue Oct 06, 2015 1:29 pm Post subject: |
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I routed my coolant lines in front of and over the dash unit causing clearance issues with the pass side vent and glovebox door. I'm going to reroute under and behind the crash brace if they will fit. How did you route your coolant lines. _________________ VW LT40 build. Like a Vanagon but 30% larger in every direction and 40% slower even in metric.
https://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=749359&highlight= |
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Howesight Samba Member
Joined: July 02, 2008 Posts: 3262 Location: Vancouver, B.C.
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Posted: Tue Oct 06, 2015 1:36 pm Post subject: |
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Hey Sir Sam:
Excellent photo coverage!
I am assuming you use an SVX engine. You may already know this, but the SVX ECU has a connection to enable the ECU to know when the compressor clutch is engaged. This then raises the idle speed whenever the compressor clutch is engaged. My harness was built by Tom Shiels and he included wiring to the engine bay junction box for that purpose. I then just had to run a jumper between the wire providing power to the compressor clutch and the junction box connection.
My SVX idles at around 450 rpm, but the AC idle-up raises that to around 900 rpm, IIRC. _________________ '86 Syncro Westy SVX |
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Sir Sam Samba Member
Joined: July 19, 2009 Posts: 1669 Location: Fort Collins Colorado!
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Posted: Tue Oct 06, 2015 7:27 pm Post subject: |
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rmcd wrote: |
I routed my coolant lines in front of and over the dash unit causing clearance issues with the pass side vent and glovebox door. I'm going to reroute under and behind the crash brace if they will fit. How did you route your coolant lines. |
I routed them under the brace, seems to work ok so far, but I haven't gotten everything else reinstalled. The dash is in place but not bolted in yet.
Howesight wrote: |
Hey Sir Sam:
Excellent photo coverage!
I am assuming you use an SVX engine. You may already know this, but the SVX ECU has a connection to enable the ECU to know when the compressor clutch is engaged. This then raises the idle speed whenever the compressor clutch is engaged. My harness was built by Tom Shiels and he included wiring to the engine bay junction box for that purpose. I then just had to run a jumper between the wire providing power to the compressor clutch and the junction box connection.
My SVX idles at around 450 rpm, but the AC idle-up raises that to around 900 rpm, IIRC. |
Yup SVX. I do not have the ECU connected the AC sensor(nor do I have the power steering switch connected). It would be nice to hook it up for the higher idle. The SVX does seem to idle very low. The higher idle with AC on should allow for better pumping. _________________ '91 Carat Westy
87' Syncro + '87 Westy conversion coming soon |
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ALIKA T3 Samba Member
Joined: July 30, 2009 Posts: 6316 Location: Honolulu,Hawaii and France
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