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Driven5 Samba Member
Joined: April 09, 2014 Posts: 10 Location: Seattle Area
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Posted: Tue Apr 22, 2014 11:07 pm Post subject: VW Based Twin? |
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All questions of sanity aside, if someone wanted to build their own basic (easy to maintain) air-cooled parallel twin engine from as many readily available off-the-shelf components as possible, are there any technical concerns that would prevent using the Type I engine as the foundation? Maybe I'm just missing something that should otherwise seem entirely obvious. But after spending a considerable amount of time thinking and researching about it, the glaring issues would be the custom built case and custom (modified?) fully counterweighted crankshaft. But beyond that, what would be the main hurdles?
The biggest unknown that jumps to mind is that oil drainage in the head could be an issue. With Rabbit valve seals and keeping it slanted at least somewhat towards the pushrod tubes might that be enough to mitigate any potential problems? Worst case scenario I would think the head could be tapped for additional drainage plumbing. Is there anything else about these engines that would prevent half of one from being tipped up at a 60* or 75* angle?
Also, what if the phase angle of the crankshaft was revised from 180* to 360*? Are the lobes on the cam blanks full circles, such that any 'custom' cam grinder could rephase one to match? _________________ "I couldn't find the sports car of my dreams, so I built it myself" -Ferdinand Porsche |
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Juanito84 Samba Member
Joined: March 17, 2012 Posts: 2436 Location: Colorado Mountains
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Posted: Tue Apr 22, 2014 11:56 pm Post subject: |
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You would have to block off the oil passage that goes to the right side lifters and tip up the left side. _________________ If a water cooled engine cools its water with air, isn't it just an overcomplicated air cooled engine? |
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Boolean Samba Member
Joined: January 19, 2012 Posts: 1712 Location: Stockholm
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Posted: Wed Apr 23, 2014 4:20 am Post subject: |
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A parallel twin should have a 180 degree crank - otherwise it would just be two singles coupled together.
Use the left side of the case, make a girdle or something to keep the bearings in place, and bolt an oilpan to the case split bolts. A piece of cake.
Note that oil drainage from the head is a very small issue compared to the amount of work needed to make it all work.
Something has to be done with crankcase breathing, oil system, cooling, and other bits I forget right now.
It will surely work, and with a stock crank too. (It may have to have counterweights matched to the missing rods) _________________ I strive for perfection. Excellence will not be tolerated!
Build thread here:
http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=529379 |
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Driven5 Samba Member
Joined: April 09, 2014 Posts: 10 Location: Seattle Area
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Posted: Wed Apr 23, 2014 10:10 am Post subject: |
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Thanks for the replies! I know that these kinds of questions can seem outlandish enough to rational people that they are often not given much consideration.
I believe the 'traditional' parallel twins actually used the 360* crank, even if the 180* crank has better balance and eventually became more popular because of it. Technically a parallel twin should probably have a 270*, or maybe even ~285* crank, but that's neither here nor there. A stock crank may work to get it running initially, but I wouldn't automatically count on it being ideal in the long run either. So assuming a cu$tom crank may eventually get thrown into the mix anyways, the main additional concern I can see at that juncture with changing the cylinder phasing to anything other than 180*, would be the cam lobe phasing. Thus my interest in finding out if the standard blanks used by most VW cam grinders would allow for otherwise standard ground cam lobes to be rephrased to compensate, or if they too would have to be completely cus$tom from scratch.
I do realize that the amount of work to do this would be pretty immense. There would obviously be many more concerns needing to be addressed, but right now I'm mostly looking for anything (obvious big bits or unsuspecting little bits) that could potentially be a show stopper. It would be better to find as many as possible now, during the initial investigation, rather than after diving headfirst into such a project. _________________ "I couldn't find the sports car of my dreams, so I built it myself" -Ferdinand Porsche
Last edited by Driven5 on Wed Apr 23, 2014 4:20 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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miniman82 Samba Swamp Donkey
Joined: March 22, 2005 Posts: 9515 Location: Southern Maryland
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Posted: Wed Apr 23, 2014 1:19 pm Post subject: Re: VW Based Twin? |
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Driven5 wrote: |
what would be the main hurdles? |
Pissing everyone off because you're driving so slow?
Why bother modifying a VW, just start off with a proper parallel twin like a Fiat 650 engine or something like that.
http://www.fiat500sport.com/engine-assembly/original-fiat-126-650cc-made-in-italy-0249.html
I ordered a bunch of parts from those guys when I built my 700cc street motor, the thing was a beast for a twin. 45DCOE, race cam, glasspack, the whole nine. Costs an arm and a leg, but it would definitely be different. _________________ Build thread: http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=212747
Glenn wrote: |
satterley_sr wrote: |
I just wanted to bitch but I'm getting no sympathy. |
Welcome to the Samba. |
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Boolean Samba Member
Joined: January 19, 2012 Posts: 1712 Location: Stockholm
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Posted: Wed Apr 23, 2014 2:00 pm Post subject: |
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I heard about a guy who put a Citroen aircooled opposed four Visa engine in a bug. It had one hp less than the 1300 it replaced. When asked about WHY?!, he replied:"Basic hot rodding. It hadn't been done before" _________________ I strive for perfection. Excellence will not be tolerated!
Build thread here:
http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=529379 |
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Boolean Samba Member
Joined: January 19, 2012 Posts: 1712 Location: Stockholm
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Driven5 Samba Member
Joined: April 09, 2014 Posts: 10 Location: Seattle Area
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Posted: Wed Apr 23, 2014 3:30 pm Post subject: Re: VW Based Twin? |
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miniman82 wrote: |
Pissing everyone off because you're driving so slow? |
Apparently you haven't spent much time around Seattle drivers...Although using a "proper" Fiat twin with 2/3 the displacement might start becoming a problem, depending on what it's installed in. _________________ "I couldn't find the sports car of my dreams, so I built it myself" -Ferdinand Porsche |
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miniman82 Samba Swamp Donkey
Joined: March 22, 2005 Posts: 9515 Location: Southern Maryland
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Posted: Wed Apr 23, 2014 6:08 pm Post subject: |
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Please, I spent 4 years in that hellhole they call Chicago and Hampton Roads isn't much better. GRIDLOCK is a daily occurrence. _________________ Build thread: http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=212747
Glenn wrote: |
satterley_sr wrote: |
I just wanted to bitch but I'm getting no sympathy. |
Welcome to the Samba. |
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Matthew Samba Member
Joined: January 29, 2004 Posts: 1760 Location: Eastern Tennessee
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Posted: Wed Apr 23, 2014 6:29 pm Post subject: |
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It can be done I'm sure. It has been done before keeping the engine horizontal and just using 1-2 cylinders and head. The other side gets the cylinder spigots and pushrod tube holes blocked off.
What is the intended use? _________________ 1965 Beetle sedan
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Driven5 Samba Member
Joined: April 09, 2014 Posts: 10 Location: Seattle Area
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Posted: Wed Apr 23, 2014 11:02 pm Post subject: |
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miniman82 wrote: |
Please, I spent 4 years in that hellhole they call Chicago and Hampton Roads isn't much better. GRIDLOCK is a daily occurrence. |
Drivers, not traffic. Chicago drivers have no fear of going bumper to bumper at well over the posted speed limit. Seattle drivers, on the other hand, are terrified to go anywhere near the posted speed limit or the car in front of them.
Matthew wrote: |
It can be done I'm sure. It has been done before keeping the engine horizontal and just using 1-2 cylinders and head. The other side gets the cylinder spigots and pushrod tube holes blocked off.
What is the intended use? |
I'm not too surprised that would work in the horizontal position, but one of my main concerns is with tipping it upright and whether the angled use could specifically cause any problems of note. That's why some of my first thoughts went to the oil system and drainage.
I have no detailed plans for what exactly it would end up in, but something small, light, and front engined would be a pretty safe bet...Or maybe something that could be titled as a 'motorcycle'. _________________ "I couldn't find the sports car of my dreams, so I built it myself" -Ferdinand Porsche |
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Oldfart Samba Member
Joined: March 09, 2008 Posts: 187 Location: Strayliya
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Boolean Samba Member
Joined: January 19, 2012 Posts: 1712 Location: Stockholm
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Driven5 Samba Member
Joined: April 09, 2014 Posts: 10 Location: Seattle Area
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Posted: Sat Apr 26, 2014 11:56 pm Post subject: |
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And the easy path does you no good, if it does not lead to where you are going. It is then that the more difficult path may actually be your easiest option. _________________ "I couldn't find the sports car of my dreams, so I built it myself" -Ferdinand Porsche |
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SBD Samba Member
Joined: October 24, 2012 Posts: 3269 Location: SOUTH DAKOTA
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Posted: Sun Apr 27, 2014 12:08 am Post subject: |
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Driven5 wrote: |
And the easy path does you no good, if it does not lead to where you are going. It is then that the more difficult path may actually be your easiest option. |
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mondshine Samba Member
Joined: October 27, 2006 Posts: 2770 Location: The World's Motor Capital
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Posted: Sun Apr 27, 2014 9:59 am Post subject: |
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How about a water cooled twin?
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Driven5 Samba Member
Joined: April 09, 2014 Posts: 10 Location: Seattle Area
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Posted: Sun Apr 27, 2014 11:45 pm Post subject: |
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mondshine wrote: |
How about a water cooled twin? |
Nice pics. The hinged radiator was a cute idea. If my ideas were to test out successfully, then yes it might become advantageous to take on the added complexity of building a water cooled engine for any further developments. But to just get a running proof-of-concept engine, simplicity would be the name of the game...Which is why I'm specifically looking into what could be done with Type 1 components, and what the limiting factors might be. _________________ "I couldn't find the sports car of my dreams, so I built it myself" -Ferdinand Porsche |
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Quokka42 Samba Member
Joined: December 02, 2010 Posts: 3117 Location: Melbourne, Australia
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Posted: Sun Apr 27, 2014 11:52 pm Post subject: |
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If simplicity were the name of the game, just leave one side off, make up a cam to suit and cut up and weld the original crankshaft to provide a 360 firing arrangement. You could slant it up about 30-45 degrees and still fit it under the hood would be my guess (just move the pickup and add a new drain plug. Use the right side and you won't need to worry about the left filling with oil. _________________ There has only ever been one man who was perfect, and they nailed Him to a cross. |
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