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Skidub Samba Member
Joined: December 29, 2014 Posts: 204 Location: PNW
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Posted: Mon Dec 28, 2015 12:01 am Post subject: Re: syncro front inner CV joints, spacers ?? longer bolts ?? |
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So, if you are unsure as to whether or not the Vanagon shop that worked on your Syncro's front inner CV joints reinstalled the spacer washers on these joints between the joint and the flange, but you are sure that the shop used standard length (shorter) CV bolts on the front inner CV joints, and also did not installthe Schnorr locking washers (said they never do), is it okay to install the correct length (longer) front inner CV bolts with Schnorr washers if the spacer washer was not reinstalled? If the spacer washer was not reinstalled, will the longer front inner CV bolts do any damage?
Finally, is proper torque for the front inner CV bolts 26 ft lbs and the rears 33 ft lbs. Appears to be what the Bentley shows. _________________ 86 Syncro GL Tin Top
Subaru 2.5L Swap
Rblt Transaxle w/ R Locker + Decoupler |
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insyncro Banned
Joined: March 07, 2002 Posts: 15086 Location: New York
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Posted: Mon Dec 28, 2015 11:20 am Post subject: Re: syncro front inner CV joints, spacers ?? longer bolts ?? |
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The spacers can be seen between the CV and flange when installed.
Time for a looksee.
Sorry to hear about all this double checking after you have paid a shop to do the work.
Some of your information suits the saying....it may be time to find another shop or DIY |
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Skidub Samba Member
Joined: December 29, 2014 Posts: 204 Location: PNW
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Posted: Mon Dec 28, 2015 3:05 pm Post subject: Re: syncro front inner CV joints, spacers ?? longer bolts ?? |
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Had a looksee and I'm happy to report that I do see the spacer washers. I have the correct front inner CV bolts and washers from T3 and will fix this myself.
I try and make smart decisions about what I can, can't, should or should not do in the driveway based on the intersection of my technical ability and available time.
In this case I have spent way too much time, and for that matter money, dealing with the after math of the shops work.
A little bummed, but you're right. It is time to find a new shop for when needed. Thanks for all of the technical advice.
Last question, CV bolt torque (std Lobro joints): 33 ft lbs rear and 26 ft lbs up front? _________________ 86 Syncro GL Tin Top
Subaru 2.5L Swap
Rblt Transaxle w/ R Locker + Decoupler |
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Sodo Samba Member
Joined: July 06, 2007 Posts: 9517 Location: Western WA
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Posted: Sun Feb 19, 2017 11:07 pm Post subject: Re: Syncro front inner CV joints: Spacers?? Longer bolts?? |
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I'm currently replacing front axle boots, and greasing CVs.
Passenger side inner CV: Has conical spring washer and the 6-holer spacer.
Driver side inner CV: NO conical washer, and NO 6-holer spacer.
Do I need either or both of these? _________________
'90 Westy EJ25, 2Peloquins, 3knobs, pressure-oiled GT mainshaft, filtered, cooled gearbox
'87 Tintop w 47k 53k, '12 SmallCar EJ25, cooled filtered gearbox
....KTMs, GasGas, SPOT mtb |
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MarkWard Samba Member
Joined: February 09, 2005 Posts: 17007 Location: Retired South Florida
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Posted: Mon Feb 20, 2017 6:13 am Post subject: Re: Syncro front inner CV joints: Spacers?? Longer bolts?? |
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Both front inner CVs came with spacers and longer bolts. You want to be sure you are using the longer bolts with the spacers. In addition there should be 3 securing plates on each inner joint along with the 6 serrated conical washers.
The spacers show up in the classifieds and I bought one from a VanAgain I believe. I recall the longer bolts came from Van Cafe.
VW felt that the spacers were needed. The spacers are adding a little length to the shafts. Perhaps the axles were originally from another application. You should probably have both. Hope that helps some. _________________ ☮️ |
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xoo00oox Samba Member
Joined: February 11, 2010 Posts: 2671 Location: East Nassau, NY
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Sodo Samba Member
Joined: July 06, 2007 Posts: 9517 Location: Western WA
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Posted: Tue Feb 21, 2017 2:16 pm Post subject: Re: Syncro front inner CV joints: Spacers?? Longer bolts?? |
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I like the idea of the grease fitting, right there where the action is.
But is it OK to move the CV out a full 1/4" on a Syncro front axle? Will that cause the CVs to start running in a new set of ball-tracks? Is it OK to force a new ball-track? If that works, it could be a way to get another lifetime from a CV joint.... _________________
'90 Westy EJ25, 2Peloquins, 3knobs, pressure-oiled GT mainshaft, filtered, cooled gearbox
'87 Tintop w 47k 53k, '12 SmallCar EJ25, cooled filtered gearbox
....KTMs, GasGas, SPOT mtb |
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Sodo Samba Member
Joined: July 06, 2007 Posts: 9517 Location: Western WA
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Posted: Tue Feb 21, 2017 4:45 pm Post subject: Re: Syncro front inner CV joints: Spacers?? Longer bolts?? |
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I wanna put it back together now so I channelled Christopher....
The ring is 4" diameter.3/16" thick. This is what I have - so making it in 2 parts
OK all systems are GO! _________________
'90 Westy EJ25, 2Peloquins, 3knobs, pressure-oiled GT mainshaft, filtered, cooled gearbox
'87 Tintop w 47k 53k, '12 SmallCar EJ25, cooled filtered gearbox
....KTMs, GasGas, SPOT mtb |
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peterT3syncro Samba Member
Joined: September 27, 2016 Posts: 72 Location: australia
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Posted: Tue Feb 21, 2017 5:34 pm Post subject: Re: Syncro front inner CV joints: Spacers?? Longer bolts?? |
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Hi
Would I be correct in saying the syncro uses the same length CV axle front and rear ?
I thought they could be interchanged?
Not including the mentioned spacer.
Peter _________________ Peter
Type 3 Syncro Kombi, EJ22 Subaru |
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Sodo Samba Member
Joined: July 06, 2007 Posts: 9517 Location: Western WA
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Posted: Tue Feb 21, 2017 6:02 pm Post subject: Re: Syncro front inner CV joints: Spacers?? Longer bolts?? |
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peterT3syncro wrote: |
Would I be correct in saying the syncro uses the same length CV axle front and rear ? |
No. The Syncro front axles differ significantly with the rear. One CV on the front axle is same as the 2 rear. So there are "6 same CVs" on a Syncro and they are the same CVs as on a 2WD.
Syncro front outboard CVs are very hard to find. Don't throw away or destroy what you've got. If you run across spares, buy them. Don't drive your van with torn outboard CV boots. Clean the CVs and replace the boots, you are destroying gold by driving them dirty. _________________
'90 Westy EJ25, 2Peloquins, 3knobs, pressure-oiled GT mainshaft, filtered, cooled gearbox
'87 Tintop w 47k 53k, '12 SmallCar EJ25, cooled filtered gearbox
....KTMs, GasGas, SPOT mtb |
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peterT3syncro Samba Member
Joined: September 27, 2016 Posts: 72 Location: australia
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Posted: Tue Feb 21, 2017 6:13 pm Post subject: Re: Syncro front inner CV joints: Spacers?? Longer bolts?? |
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Sodo wrote: |
peterT3syncro wrote: |
Would I be correct in saying the syncro uses the same length CV axle front and rear ? |
No. The Syncro front axles differ significantly with the rear. One CV on the front axle is same as the 2 rear. So there are "6 same CVs" on a Syncro and they are the same CVs as on a 2WD.
Syncro front outboard CVs are very hard to find. Don't throw away or destroy what you've got. If you run across spares, buy them. Don't drive your van with torn outboard CV boots. Clean the CVs and replace the boots, you are destroying gold by driving them dirty. |
Sodo
OK - is the outer front CV with a stub axle spline attached as part of the CV joint ?
Like front wheel drive vehicles - Golfs, etc?
Is there a Porsche CV that fits?
Peter _________________ Peter
Type 3 Syncro Kombi, EJ22 Subaru |
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MarkWard Samba Member
Joined: February 09, 2005 Posts: 17007 Location: Retired South Florida
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Posted: Wed Feb 22, 2017 6:17 am Post subject: Re: Syncro front inner CV joints: Spacers?? Longer bolts?? |
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The front syncro CV shaft design is very similar to a VW Rabbit/Golf and other FWD VW's. _________________ ☮️ |
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Pcforno Samba Member
Joined: October 14, 2014 Posts: 575 Location: Santa Fe, nm
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Posted: Wed Feb 22, 2017 7:18 am Post subject: Re: Syncro front inner CV joints: Spacers?? Longer bolts?? |
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Hey Sodo- if the spacer is between the flange and the joint, why would that effect the CV wear pattern? It just puts the joint further out in space, perhaps changing the angle of articulation slightly at cruising height, but nothing else. It would seem as if it dose t matter one way or the other- |
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Sodo Samba Member
Joined: July 06, 2007 Posts: 9517 Location: Western WA
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Posted: Wed Feb 22, 2017 9:10 am Post subject: Re: Syncro front inner CV joints: Spacers?? Longer bolts?? |
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Some crazy P.O. removed the 5mm spacer, lengthening the CV/axle assembly by 5mm and there is a resultant ball-track over the last 60,000+ miles.
Sodo (perhaps crazy present-owner) replaced the 5mm spacer, shortening the CV/axle assembly by 5mm. This should result in a different ball-track-centerline.
Lets assume everything happens symmetrically. 5.0mm on 2 CVs is 2.5mm per CV. There's a ball-track at the top of each ball and another at the bottom.
Each ball-track moves inward 1.25mm to make up the (1.25x4=) 5mm change in flange position.
- same situation stated another way -
Each ball-track moves inward 1.25mm to make up the (1.25x4=) 5mm shorter axle assembly.
Of course I could be wrong! This is just how it seems to me. _________________
'90 Westy EJ25, 2Peloquins, 3knobs, pressure-oiled GT mainshaft, filtered, cooled gearbox
'87 Tintop w 47k 53k, '12 SmallCar EJ25, cooled filtered gearbox
....KTMs, GasGas, SPOT mtb |
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xoo00oox Samba Member
Joined: February 11, 2010 Posts: 2671 Location: East Nassau, NY
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Posted: Wed Feb 22, 2017 11:16 am Post subject: Re: Syncro front inner CV joints: Spacers?? Longer bolts?? |
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Sodo wrote: |
I like the idea of the grease fitting, right there where the action is.
But is it OK to move the CV out a full 1/4" on a Syncro front axle? Will that cause the CVs to start running in a new set of ball-tracks? Is it OK to force a new ball-track? If that works, it could be a way to get another lifetime from a CV joint.... |
I've had them on my Syncro for the past 2 years. I've also seen Syncro vans run without any spacers for years with no problems. I put them on my own van because it is lifted a little and my front inner CV flanges are about 1/4" closer to each other because it is an Audi rear diff, I didn't want the axle to run out of axial travel. |
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Sodo Samba Member
Joined: July 06, 2007 Posts: 9517 Location: Western WA
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Posted: Wed Feb 22, 2017 5:56 pm Post subject: Re: Syncro front inner CV joints: Spacers?? Longer bolts?? |
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xoo00oox wrote: |
Sodo wrote: |
I like the idea of the grease fitting, right there where the action is. |
I've had them on my Syncro for the past 2 years. I've also seen Syncro vans run without any spacers for years with no problems. I put them on my own van because it is lifted a little and my front inner CV flanges are about 1/4" closer to each other because it is an Audi rear diff, I didn't want the axle to run out of axial travel. |
...not one to sit on his hands while some other feller waltzes into the room with his greasable option dangling about
.... in front of God & everyone.....y'all know what's likely to happen next....
Drilling a 2.5mm hole in the 5mm thick material. I drilled 2 holes per spacer.
Tapped the hole with a 3mmx0.5 thread, for a screw-plug.
The head of the 3mm screw is 5mm.
Ready for a needle greasing. I'ver just serviced these CVs so they should be good for 30,000 miles.
Just gotta remember they're there......after 30,000 miles, which could be awhile.
Front CVs being fairly valuable, are worth taking care of.
I like the idea being able to inject clean grease into the closed end, ejecting the "dirtier" grease into the boot. _________________
'90 Westy EJ25, 2Peloquins, 3knobs, pressure-oiled GT mainshaft, filtered, cooled gearbox
'87 Tintop w 47k 53k, '12 SmallCar EJ25, cooled filtered gearbox
....KTMs, GasGas, SPOT mtb |
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xoo00oox Samba Member
Joined: February 11, 2010 Posts: 2671 Location: East Nassau, NY
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Posted: Wed Feb 22, 2017 6:30 pm Post subject: Re: Syncro front inner CV joints: Spacers?? Longer bolts?? |
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Will you be able to access those? You may have to grind a notch in your CV flange. |
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Sodo Samba Member
Joined: July 06, 2007 Posts: 9517 Location: Western WA
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Posted: Wed Feb 22, 2017 6:47 pm Post subject: Re: Syncro front inner CV joints: Spacers?? Longer bolts?? |
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Yikes you're right! was having too much fun with making jokes on the Samba. My flange is all greasy and I didn't notice. Not sure at the moment if I'm gonna do that.... _________________
'90 Westy EJ25, 2Peloquins, 3knobs, pressure-oiled GT mainshaft, filtered, cooled gearbox
'87 Tintop w 47k 53k, '12 SmallCar EJ25, cooled filtered gearbox
....KTMs, GasGas, SPOT mtb |
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Sodo Samba Member
Joined: July 06, 2007 Posts: 9517 Location: Western WA
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Posted: Tue May 09, 2017 12:43 pm Post subject: Re: Syncro front inner CV joints: Spacers?? Longer bolts?? |
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In case anyone wants ta know (using the 5mm OEM CV spacers), 55mm bolts are appx 2-3 mm too long for the Syncro front inner flange. _________________
'90 Westy EJ25, 2Peloquins, 3knobs, pressure-oiled GT mainshaft, filtered, cooled gearbox
'87 Tintop w 47k 53k, '12 SmallCar EJ25, cooled filtered gearbox
....KTMs, GasGas, SPOT mtb |
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mr. c Samba Member
Joined: November 14, 2007 Posts: 153 Location: Black Hills, SD
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Posted: Thu Sep 21, 2017 11:17 pm Post subject: Re: Syncro front inner CV joints: Spacers?? Longer bolts?? |
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And in case any is wondering, 62mm is waaaaay too long for the inner flange.
I was redoing half my front end and ordered a new CV and 12-point bolts from a reputable online merchant we all use. The bolts were longer than I expected, and after comparing them to the ones I removed I mistakenly assumed the PO (they were so stupid and I'm so smart!) had the short bolts and thought "yep, the inners ARE longer than other CV bolts." I went on with my R&R. I outsmarted myself when I seated and torqued all the bolts without rotating the axle.
I drove around the neighborhood and everything seemed okay. Then I crawled back under to inspect and saw my Adjusting Ring Lock Cap was obliterated and there were fresh aluminum filings embedded in some of the old grease that was kicked out with destroyed cap. Then I saw the bolts sticking out through the end of the joint flange.
I contacted the supplier and they were befuddled as to how those bolts ended up in my shipment, and are sending me new bolts, a replacement cap and some associated seals just in case.
My experience with the front differential ends at the CV. Looks I'm about to gain some more. Hopefully it's just the cap, little shaved aluminum, and nothing else. _________________ Abe: 1987 Syncro Full Camper, TiiCo engine conversion, A3 pulley kit |
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