Are There Tell-Tale Signs of a Graft?

[49vwsplit]

Here's the thing...you go to see a really decent looking rag at a used car dealership. Key part that rings bells in my mind is the "used car dealership". Bottom line is I hate most them.
Lines on the roof look nice. No waves, cracks etc. Headliner is freshly done a few years ago and is still in great shape. Aside from waiting 4 months for a BC to come in the mail what can be done to determine if the rag is original to the car?

All I can think of is using a paint thickness gauge and measure all over the rag area but:
1. Would the owner allow you to do so when there's a chance you scratch the paint?
2. Doing something like this pretty much slaps them in the face since it's clear you're showing you don't believe them. And there's goes any chance you have of being the new owner.
3. Peeling back the headliner. Yeah....like that's gonna happen.

So...question. Is there anything non-contact and non-damaging to determine if the car is stock or has been modified? Is this info hidden anywhere into the pan/body numbers?
How would YOU go about determining whether it's OG or not?
_________________
Officer: License and registration please.
Driver: What's the problem officer?
Officer: It indicates here you require glasses to operate a motor vehicle.
Driver: It's OK officer, I don't wear glasses..I have contacts.
Officer: I don't care WHO you know!!

[joe56vw]

you could use a magnet that has a pad on it so it doesn't scratch the paint to check for bondo
if it is a graft they most likely use bondo on the roof to make it look good again

the headliner at the back of the ragtop is easily removable since it just snaps in like a door panel would


personal I could care less if they think I don't trust them they are a used car salesman they know no one trusts them already
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[49vwsplit]

[joe56vw]

where the headliner meets the rear of the ragtop section there is a seam

you can see the seam here

there is a bow in there with clip that attach into holes in the back of the ragtop section
the bow with the arrow is not the one I am talking about but you can see it hanging down

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'60 15 window walkthrough
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why is there no sarcasism button on here?

[49vwsplit]

Perfect.
Thanks
_________________
Officer: License and registration please.
Driver: What's the problem officer?
Officer: It indicates here you require glasses to operate a motor vehicle.
Driver: It's OK officer, I don't wear glasses..I have contacts.
Officer: I don't care WHO you know!!

[49vwsplit]

I'm back on this with a thought. What about using an inspection camera to probe around under the headliner areas and maybe up through the windshield pillar coming up in through the trunk area?

IF the roof was grafted in under the roof rails you would never see this by peeking under the rear of the headliner as you showed. Don't get me wrong...I appreciate your time and answers which were very helpful. I'm just thinking out loud since I recently sawa rag where the guy told me it was grafted under the rails. He wasn't trying to hide anything. It's just how he chose to do it.
On the other side if the entire roof section was grafted and was welded around the window pillars then you would also have problems seeing if it was grafted in.
What do you all think about bringing an inspection camera? Any better ideas come to mind?
_________________
Officer: License and registration please.
Driver: What's the problem officer?
Officer: It indicates here you require glasses to operate a motor vehicle.
Driver: It's OK officer, I don't wear glasses..I have contacts.
Officer: I don't care WHO you know!!

[hitest]

The camera would be an excellent way to safely check the A pillars- if the seller is compliant. It should clearly show what good bodywork would cover if they were ever cut. Under the dome light may be good too- but have a good idea of what a stock/factory cavity should look like first- I'd hate to see welding spatter in there that was factory and assume it was a graft.

I imagine too that a forthright buyer would not hesitate to share the name of their upholsterer with you- as the list of A-plus level Bodymen does not always match the list of Ace upholsters...
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[49vwsplit]

Yup. Under the dome light would tell if it was a graft under the rails. Good one.
Any seller not willing to allow you to do non-destructive inspection pretty much tells you what the next step is. Walk away.

Mistaking OG weld splatter would definitely put a cramp in the day. But weld splatter vs a continuous weld bead the circumference of the pillar is unmistakably graft.

With respect to Euros, is there room to scope downward through the Semaphore slot?

Anyone have a factory Rag or Euro Rag AND an inspection camera willing to take and post a few videos? It would be invaluable info to see.
_________________
Officer: License and registration please.
Driver: What's the problem officer?
Officer: It indicates here you require glasses to operate a motor vehicle.
Driver: It's OK officer, I don't wear glasses..I have contacts.
Officer: I don't care WHO you know!!

[djkeev]

In my way of thinking, if the price is good, it makes you smile when you drive it and HEY!!!!! YOU'VE GOT A RAGTOP!!!!!

Don't obsess over original or graft, if it is done so well that you cannot tell.......well 99.99% of the rest of America won't be able to tell either!

There are ways of grafting that you or anyone will never be able to tell, headliner or no headliner!

Birth certificates? Oh pisshaw!! They are often so wrong or incomplete that they have become almost laughable!

Just my 2 cents and odd way of thinking.........


Dave
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[49vwsplit]

I hear what you're saying and understand your point of view and believe me I'm not ranting at you in particular.

It's just irks me to hear the seller quote that it's OG, Euro and Rag etc and is asking a premium price for it. My point is if is listed as grafted that is a whole other ball of wax. Don't try and hide the fact that it was grafted OR pawn it off onto someone else trying to get rid of it. In my mind that's what anyone who is untruthful is doing. To state "I cannot say for sure if the job is grafted" is more BS.

If I pay higher $ I want my money's worth and not someone's workmanship or ability to bondo. I can hack, weld and putty up a car just as well as the next guy.
_________________
Officer: License and registration please.
Driver: What's the problem officer?
Officer: It indicates here you require glasses to operate a motor vehicle.
Driver: It's OK officer, I don't wear glasses..I have contacts.
Officer: I don't care WHO you know!!

[VW_Buggsy]

If you're worried about how the seller will react to your inspections, maybe you could ask for a test drive and do the inspection at home or in a parking lot out of sight. I've done this before. If he asks to come along, tell him you want to get your own impression of the car without any salesmanship and offer to leave something behind as security.

I actually test drive often, a few times a year. Some of the salesman know me and they don't mind because it doesn't really cost them time or effort and I'm always straight with them about my intention.

There are always some odd balls but most used salesman don't give a damn if you want to inspect as long as you don't do any damage. For the most part if they get nervous about a thorough inspection, they're shady.