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VWporscheGT3
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Joined: September 01, 2006
Posts: 2076
Location: Gardnerville, NV
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 Posted: Wed May 21, 2014 9:53 am Post subject: |
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| Quokka42 wrote: |
Sorry Mr Duncan - I think I started the fight because I pointed out that the stock engine wasn't undercarbed. My early experiences were a little like Torben's, but even earlier and in a land where the market for performance parts is a lot smaller, hence prices higher. Not having all the parts available, or a lot of money, guys like me liked to work with what we had. Most 1&3/8 exhausts were, and are, woeful - with a crappy merge into an undersized outlet feeding an undersized to non-existent collector, but at least you got reduced back pressure. I remember a magazine once published dyno tests to prove that a stock muffler without the baffles in the pea shooters outperformed a number of "performance exhausts." That was on an otherwise bone stock engine I believe. A stock carb with a home made velocity stack into a cheap foam filter, Mazda distributor and a bit of tweaking the carb and tuning and she'd really wake up, especially if you could get hold of some ratio rockers. About 25-30% increase over stock if it all came together, then you really needed bigger carbs and until the bugspray became available these were usually from the junkyard and intended for other engines.
I had a buggy at one point which came without an engine and when I first rebuilt the engine I bought for it I just ran the type 3 carbs that came with it. A 1600 with very little work and I'm sure it would have lifted the front wheels if my tyres had been stickier. |
Hey Quokka!,
I have been pretty fortunate in my vw driving life that I haven't had to buy the really expensive things for my cars. that I had things given to me to help me to my end. I completely understand the not having any money and doing my best to make things work. I hate a 009... but its what works for now. the most money I ever put into the car was to build its last motor. and i spent about 700$ and it built me a nice little motor that I am very happy with, but have been forced to skimp on things like Distributors and carb selections. ffs I had to machine some spacers for the short type 3 ICT manifolds to get them to clear the engine compartment.
I guess i wrap this rambling post up with this, its very frustrating when you see folks asking for help on this site and people's only answer is, buy this or that new part. Or when someone wants to get in a argument over dumb theory b/s that is neither here nor there for the average VW enthusiast. when it comes to under-carbed... the motor isn't really under-carbed but carbureted best to its set parameters in stock form.
For the record. at 34mpg if I drive like a normal person here are my engine specs.
AS41 Dual relief case
CB 69mm CW crank
Stock Rods
CB cheater cam
stock lifters
85mm AA cylinders
old but in good shape EEPCO dual port heads
stock pushrods
stock rockers
1.5 qt deep sump
Filter pump (not a fan but it works, and ported it for "smooth" flow)
Dual 34 ICT webers, type 3 manifolds , custom made spacers, and custom linkage.
cone filters.
009 distributor
all stock tinware except thermostat and linkage... have never been able to find a complete set for the right price.
same motor with a 34-pict 4 was only averaging 24mpg on a good day....
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Vanapplebomb
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Joined: November 03, 2010
Posts: 5417
Location: Holland, MI
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| Posted: Sat Jul 12, 2014 4:01 am Post subject: |
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It is interesting to note that VW did make changes to the carb for different applications. For example, the American 1.8 T4 engines in 412's and busses came with 34mm Solex PDSIT carbs, but some European 914 1.8 engines came with a 40mm version of the same carb.
Interesting...
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1800 Type 4 Berrien 295
http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=487021 |
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morymob
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Joined: November 09, 2007
Posts: 4683
Location: east-tn
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| Posted: Sat Jul 12, 2014 4:14 am Post subject: |
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| I thought it being a governor of sorts especially on earlier ones, just keep it floored, even a 'well made'redneck cruise control, correct length of broom handle wedged between seat & gas pedal, a cord attached to front of stick & a loop at other end with it around wrist, just yank to disengage, I would ignore this suggestion ... |
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Altema
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Joined: June 20, 2010
Posts: 2904
Location: Lower Michigan
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| Posted: Sun Jul 13, 2014 8:48 pm Post subject: |
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| Vanapplebomb wrote: |
It is interesting to note that VW did make changes to the carb for different applications. For example, the American 1.8 T4 engines in 412's and busses came with 34mm Solex PDSIT carbs, but some European 914 1.8 engines came with a 40mm version of the same carb.
Interesting... |
Hmm, I'd like to get ahold of one of thos carbs to play with! |
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Vanapplebomb
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Joined: November 03, 2010
Posts: 5417
Location: Holland, MI
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Juanito84
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Joined: March 17, 2012
Posts: 2436
Location: Colorado Mountains
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| Posted: Fri Aug 01, 2014 4:11 am Post subject: |
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I think that whether a person would view a stock VW as undercarbed or not has a lot to do with how he drives. If a driver sticks to lower RPMs there probably isn't that much difference. But if he feels like he has to wind it up to 4,600RPM or better every time he takes off I could see why he would feel the need to put on more carburetion.
Personally if I feel the need to wind the engine up it's usually because I'm climbing a steep mountain pass. The stock carb helps keep it from overheating in such circumstances.
IMO any engine should be able to keep going at full throttle in hot weather without overheating. If you have more power than cooling then you may be able to get short bursts of speed on flat land but then fry the thing whenever you climb a mountain.
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If a water cooled engine cools its water with air, isn't it just an overcomplicated air cooled engine? |
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Vanapplebomb
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Joined: November 03, 2010
Posts: 5417
Location: Holland, MI
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| Posted: Fri Jan 30, 2015 11:12 pm Post subject: |
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| Altema wrote: |
| Vanapplebomb wrote: |
It is interesting to note that VW did make changes to the carb for different applications. For example, the American 1.8 T4 engines in 412's and busses came with 34mm Solex PDSIT carbs, but some European 914 1.8 engines came with a 40mm version of the same carb.
Interesting... |
Hmm, I'd like to get ahold of one of thos carbs to play with! |
European specs for the 1800 AN Type 4 engines that had dual 40mm Solex PDSIT carbs was 85hp with 8.5:1 - 8.6:1 compression ratio from the factory.
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1800 Type 4 Berrien 295
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GTV
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Joined: March 27, 2004
Posts: 2084
Location: Si'ahl
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Vanapplebomb
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Joined: November 03, 2010
Posts: 5417
Location: Holland, MI
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| Posted: Sat Jan 31, 2015 7:37 am Post subject: |
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Those were real good performing carbs back in the day used in the 912 and late 356 Porsches.. As far as I know they were never fitted to 914s from the factory. I'm sure people have done that modification though.
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1800 Type 4 Berrien 295
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GTV
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Joined: March 27, 2004
Posts: 2084
Location: Si'ahl
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| Posted: Sat Jan 31, 2015 8:03 am Post subject: |
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| Vanapplebomb wrote: |
| Those were real good performing carbs back in the day used in the 912 and late 356 Porsches.. As far as I know they were never fitted to 914s from the factory. I'm sure people have done that modification though. |
Yes, they have been used on 356's since the early 60's all the way through 912 production. How can you say they were never fitted to 914's with those factory manifolds staring you in the face?
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Vanapplebomb
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Joined: November 03, 2010
Posts: 5417
Location: Holland, MI
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| Posted: Sat Jan 31, 2015 11:28 am Post subject: |
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Those are definitely not factory manifolds, and I see no documentation anywhere that says they were a factory installation. T4 engines only came with 34 or 40 PDSITs, L-jet, and D-jet systems.
I think what that is from is from Super Vee racing. VW made custom parts and modifications to engine for such applications. They built a 1600cc engine based on the T4 platform through their industrial engine devision for that race class after engine restrictions were relaxed. These never would have been installed on any 411/412, bus, vanagon, or Porsche 914 from the factory.
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1800 Type 4 Berrien 295
http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=487021
Last edited by Vanapplebomb on Sun Feb 08, 2015 8:09 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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GTV
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Joined: March 27, 2004
Posts: 2084
Location: Si'ahl
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| Posted: Sat Jan 31, 2015 12:03 pm Post subject: |
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I suppose that is a possibility, good thinking. I was thinking euro spec 914, but I just noticed that the manifolds are 4 bolt (non 914) as well. Definitely interesting.
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Volks Wagen
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Joined: February 13, 2013
Posts: 2926
Location: Germany
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| Posted: Sat Jan 31, 2015 3:18 pm Post subject: |
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There are some interesting mentions here that I'd love to hear more detail on - could be gold nuggets for someone doing it on the cheap:
| Quokka42 wrote: |
| A stock carb with a home made velocity stack into a cheap foam filter, Mazda distributor and a bit of tweaking the carb and tuning and she'd really wake up, especially if you could get hold of some ratio rockers. About 25-30% increase over stock if it all came together |
What distributor?
| Alstrup wrote: |
| In a slightly modified form though, the 34 mm PICT carburettor can supply 95 hp easy. A little more modified and we can pull 120 horses through it. So there is definitely room for the 50 hp and then some. |
What sort of mods?
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trbugman
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Joined: November 28, 2011
Posts: 67
Location: SoCal
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| Posted: Sat Jan 31, 2015 3:34 pm Post subject: |
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| GTV wrote: |
| I suppose that is a possibility, good thinking. I was thinking euro spec 914, but I just noticed that the manifolds are 4 bolt (non 914) as well. Definitely interesting. |
Only the 2.0 914 heads were 3 bolt, the 1.7 and 1.8 both had 4 bolt heads.
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raygreenwood
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Joined: November 24, 2008
Posts: 21520
Location: Oklahoma City
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| Posted: Sat Jan 31, 2015 7:54 pm Post subject: |
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| Vanapplebomb wrote: |
It is interesting to note that VW did make changes to the carb for different applications. For example, the American 1.8 T4 engines in 412's and busses came with 34mm Solex PDSIT carbs, but some European 914 1.8 engines came with a 40mm version of the same carb.
Interesting... |
There were no 412s with 1.8s with carbs in north america. It was not even an option in North America. There may have been a few gray markets brought in through Canada....but those were also different compression and ignition. Typically the 8.6:1 compression was supplied by a, domed piston. It may have been a flat top with tighter deck as well. Ray |
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LivinInnaVWBus
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Joined: October 07, 2013
Posts: 968
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| Posted: Mon Feb 02, 2015 1:51 pm Post subject: |
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1500/1600 engines with a 30 pict or 34-3 pict typically get 30-35mpg in vehicles under 2500lbs, why so many of you on this post in particular are netting less than that is very curious to me. I have a 1500sp with a 34-3 in my fully loaded camper and my MPG is surpassing a few of the (pro-dual carb on small engine) posters on this topic with a similar engine in their beetle... somethings askew and it's probably tuning/jetting.
Also, if the Solex carbs are in fact undersized for stock engines, did anyone take into account the bolt on Rajay turbo kits or the large displacement strokers utilizing a single stock carb and fetching 100+hp? There are a handful of posts on this board with such builds and a few of them are just running jet changes with an unmodified venturi. Of course these engines could make more power with duals at that point, but is it absolutely necessary for a long living and fast engine? I'd argue it isn't. |
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[email protected]
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Joined: August 03, 2002
Posts: 12785
Location: Salt Lake City, Utah
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| Posted: Mon Feb 02, 2015 1:56 pm Post subject: |
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the poor MPG is normally from guys that think 60-70 idle jets, and 135-140 main jets, are "normal". They are not.
| LivinInnaVWBus wrote: |
1500/1600 engines with a 30 pict or 34-3 pict typically get 30-35mpg in vehicles under 2500lbs, why so many of you on this post in particular are netting less than that is very curious to me. I have a 1500sp with a 34-3 in my fully loaded camper and my MPG is surpassing a few of the (pro-dual carb on small engine) posters on this topic with a similar engine in their beetle... somethings askew and it's probably tuning/jetting.
Also, if the Solex carbs are in fact undersized for stock engines, did anyone take into account the bolt on Rajay turbo kits or the large displacement strokers utilizing a single stock carb and fetching 100+hp? There are a handful of posts on this board with such builds and a few of them are just running jet changes with an unmodified venturi. Of course these engines could make more power with duals at that point, but is it absolutely necessary for a long living and fast engine? I'd argue it isn't. |
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Juanito84
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Joined: March 17, 2012
Posts: 2436
Location: Colorado Mountains
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| Posted: Mon Feb 02, 2015 7:45 pm Post subject: |
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| [email protected] wrote: |
| the poor MPG is normally from guys that think 60-70 idle jets, and 135-140 main jets, are "normal". They are not. |
Hehe! All this talk about putting on dual carbs or EFI and then dialing it in. Why not dial in the carb the car came with instead of on purposely dialing it out?
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If a water cooled engine cools its water with air, isn't it just an overcomplicated air cooled engine? |
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mark tucker
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Joined: April 08, 2009
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Location: SHALIMAR ,FLORIDA
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| Posted: Mon Feb 02, 2015 7:58 pm Post subject: |
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everybody that knows anything knows oe crabs arnt any good for performance or mpg. it's just a plain fact. and blue crabs are great for cookouts.   ... but if vw had put duels on bugs .....they would be prosches....oops porsches... or possiably just hurt the porsche sails...(  did porsche make boats??) or possiably vw should of done to the bugs like type 3 with duels, or beter yet quads!!!then add racing heads,and 5 speed,and just keeep going till they cost more than the porschea (porsche with grass growing out of the roof).....so did vw stop where they needed to stop or should they of kept upping the performance& price.? |
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Juanito84
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Joined: March 17, 2012
Posts: 2436
Location: Colorado Mountains
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| Posted: Mon Feb 02, 2015 9:09 pm Post subject: |
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| mark tucker wrote: |
| everybody that knows anything knows oe crabs arnt any good for performance or mpg. it's just a plain fact. and blue crabs are great for cookouts. ... but if vw had put duels on bugs .....they would be prosches....oops porsches... or possiably just hurt the porsche sails...( did porsche make boats??) or possiably vw should of done to the bugs like type 3 with duels, or beter yet quads!!!then add racing heads,and 5 speed,and just keeep going till they cost more than the porschea (porsche with grass growing out of the roof).....so did vw stop where they needed to stop or should they of kept upping the performance& price.? |
Oh bologna! The factory carb got an EPA rating of 35mpg highway with 39mpg peak. VW put a lot lower number in the manual, I know, but 39mpg was perfectly possible without any modification if you took care of it and drove it accordingly.
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