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Kinggourd
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PostPosted: Tue May 27, 2014 11:37 am    Post subject: 74 412 Wagon Refresh Reply with quote

Alright, so I've had this wagon for about a year now and it has been a blast to putt around in. Some of you may recognize it from the classifieds from about a year ago. It's a pretty decent runner (has its occasional burps and sputters) and for the most part the body is quite solid, the most problematic spots being the front body and the drivers side quarter panel. So with the summer coming in fast I figured I'd get the ball rolling. I finally have a decent job that will help fund my projects so I'm excited for the 412 and my project 72 Super. Lets see what we find.

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Drivers side fender is bad but seems savable.
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The pass side looks bad
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Heres the left quarter panel, It looks to be all mud. The car was probably hit at some point.
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Hidden behind the undercoating
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There was absoltely no sign of rust until I started poking around with the screwdriver. Just goes to show you how beauty is only undercoating deep.
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Dont know if this is factory or not but the undercoating on the fenders was stupid thick! These one inch thick chunks were dug out of the bottom edge of the fender and.....
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....heres what it did. Held the water and junk and rotted the crap out of it. The pass fender was ever worse.
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Wasn't expecting to grind out so much bondo.
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Inside the fender. Had to cut the undercoating out with a razor to reveal that crevice. Hosed out the fenders about 3 hours prior to removing the undercoatng and the stuff in the crevice was still soaking wet.
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Looks like time to whip out the grinder and buzz box and see what happens.
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Mike Fisher
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PostPosted: Tue May 27, 2014 1:03 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Put up WTB ads for the solid pieces you need. You can ship whole fenders etc wrapped in plastic wrap on Greyhound.
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19super73
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PostPosted: Tue May 27, 2014 1:15 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Mike Fisher wrote:
Put up WTB ads for the solid pieces you need. You can ship whole fenders etc wrapped in plastic wrap on Greyhound.


Do you know how I know you have a sense of humour?
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1970 Campmobile [url=https://www.vw-mplate.com/mplate-47260.png]Click to view image[/URL]
1970 Fastback 1600 TL
1971 Doka [url=https://www.vw-mplate.com/mplate-14845.png]Click to view image[/URL]
1973 Super Beetle
1973 Westfalia [url=https://www.vw-mplate.com/mplate-31892.png]Click to view image[/URL]
1974 412 Variant
1975 La Grande Bug
1984 Vanagon
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Mike Fisher
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PostPosted: Tue May 27, 2014 1:33 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

How? Do you think I'm wrong about shipping fenders etc? I have shipped pairs of fronts & rears wrapped together.
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two 57 oval ragtops sold
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Kinggourd
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PostPosted: Tue May 27, 2014 1:40 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

No, I think its becasue those fenders are suuuuper difficult to come by. If I do find some at a junkyard far from home I will remember that about Greyhound though, didn't know you could do that.
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19super73
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PostPosted: Tue May 27, 2014 4:11 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Kinggourd wrote:
No, I think its becasue those fenders are suuuuper difficult to come by. If I do find some at a junkyard far from home I will remember that about Greyhound though, didn't know you could do that.


Exactly. Type 4 fenders in presentable shape (better than the ones you have now) are rare, unless you are in the dry SW, and even then, pictures of donor cars and cars being saved had rusty front fenders. This isn't a Type 3, that stuff is dead simple to obtain in comparison.

If I am ever in the area where it is dry and no salt, I will be hitting up yards for fenders and shipping home. Sadly, the 'Hound won't ship cross border.
_________________
1970 Campmobile [url=https://www.vw-mplate.com/mplate-47260.png]Click to view image[/URL]
1970 Fastback 1600 TL
1971 Doka [url=https://www.vw-mplate.com/mplate-14845.png]Click to view image[/URL]
1973 Super Beetle
1973 Westfalia [url=https://www.vw-mplate.com/mplate-31892.png]Click to view image[/URL]
1974 412 Variant
1975 La Grande Bug
1984 Vanagon
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Mats W
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PostPosted: Tue May 27, 2014 10:10 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

19super73 wrote:
Kinggourd wrote:
No, I think its becasue those fenders are suuuuper difficult to come by. If I do find some at a junkyard far from home I will remember that about Greyhound though, didn't know you could do that.


Exactly. Type 4 fenders in presentable shape (better than the ones you have now) are rare, unless you are in the dry SW, and even then, pictures of donor cars and cars being saved had rusty front fenders. This isn't a Type 3, that stuff is dead simple to obtain in comparison.

If I am ever in the area where it is dry and no salt, I will be hitting up yards for fenders and shipping home. Sadly, the 'Hound won't ship cross border.

Yes, it seems these front fenders are bound to rust regardless of climate.

Kinggourd: Interesting to see how you go about this. I will be undertaking a similar operation soon, and pray the inner fenders aren't any more bad than on your project Cool
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Mike Fisher
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PostPosted: Wed May 28, 2014 7:58 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I have cut solid sections out of the fenders & shipped them to Canada etc to be welded in there. Try Avery's Air Cooled in WA for fenders/inner fenders,ideas etc, but a WTB ad with pictures Here is your best bet. If you can't find sections you can build new skins yourself out of new 20 gauge steel. Patch your inner fenders first, before you try the door skins.
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69 FI/AT square Daily Driver
66 sunroof,67,70,71,71,71AT,72,72AT,73 Parts
two 57 oval ragtops sold
'68 Karmann Ghia sold

Society is like stew. If you don't keep it stirred up you end up with a lot of scum on the top! - Russ_Wolfe/Edward Abbey
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19super73
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PostPosted: Wed May 28, 2014 9:12 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Mike Fisher wrote:
I have cut solid sections out of the fenders & shipped them to Canada etc to be welded in there. Try Avery's Air Cooled in WA for fenders/inner fenders,ideas etc, but a WTB ad with pictures Here is your best bet. If you can't find sections you can build new skins yourself out of new 20 gauge steel. Patch your inner fenders first, before you try the door skins.


No one is questioning the veracity of your statements about what you have shipped or how. The issue is finding either A) solid complete fenders to buy or B) finding someone who is willing to cut up a Type 4 fender for the solid sections that are needed (solid sections which are super rare in the first place and that 98% of owners want).

The most likely thing that will have to be done is to repair the existing fenders with good donor metal fashioned from another VW. I've been searching for Type 4 fenders for 5 years now and unless you have the ability to yard dive in the areas that have been noted and bring back anything you find, you are going to be SOL, and have to do some welding.
_________________
1970 Campmobile [url=https://www.vw-mplate.com/mplate-47260.png]Click to view image[/URL]
1970 Fastback 1600 TL
1971 Doka [url=https://www.vw-mplate.com/mplate-14845.png]Click to view image[/URL]
1973 Super Beetle
1973 Westfalia [url=https://www.vw-mplate.com/mplate-31892.png]Click to view image[/URL]
1974 412 Variant
1975 La Grande Bug
1984 Vanagon
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Rome
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PostPosted: Mon Jun 16, 2014 4:50 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Too bad you can't buy and ship these two fenders- you would not even need to repaint them for your car!
http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=588311
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bb412
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PostPosted: Tue Jun 17, 2014 12:40 pm    Post subject: 74-412 wagon Reply with quote

you can buy that at 3 place in usa,, Tulsa ok,,,Austin tx and los-angel ca,, you can ask for greyhound bus for transport,very good price,,
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Kinggourd
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PostPosted: Thu Aug 07, 2014 11:24 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

While I have the fenders off and am messing around with the rust issues I figured I'd start to tackle the front end. I know its bad and dont wanna make it any worse. The struts are definitely shot and it has the front end shimmy between 40-50 mph so I'll probably need bushes and need to rebuild the centelink.....and well, everything.

Luckily the car came with some front end components but I have no idea if they're the correct ones OR if they're even any good. Here they are, any insight would be great!

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I have one old strut insert, and have some doubts about its reliability. Is this even correct for a 412? Old part # is ZVP 266 102 and says Distributed by VWOA

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The steering damper, also old and of questionable reliability. Is it correct and whadda ya think? Old part # 22 748 0

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Tie rod ends. They both have zero movement, dont know if thats how they are or if the grease has turned to glue inside.

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Other tie rod ends. Both of these move around. The left one has an angle to it and the right one was shipped with no boot on and it doesnt seem to stay on very well.

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Bbbbball joints. The one on the left can not be moved by hand. Ive gotten it to move around but only with some help from a hammer. Is it shot? Can I remove the boot and clean the old gunk out and re-pack it?

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The left one (immobile one) has a VW stamp on the bottom. Do these look to be the corrrect ones for the 412?

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And finally, a master cylinder of questionable origin. I don't think its for the 412 (correct me if I'm wrong, but the one I think I need has the bolt holes on top of the cylinder running in line with the push rod) What is this one for? It is an ATE.

I hope I can use most of this stuff. I already know I wont be able to use that strut. What is the next best alternative? I've heard so many different things from Maxima struts to BMW parts, whats the best way?

Thanks guys, hope you gurus can shed some light on my situation.
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raygreenwood
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PostPosted: Thu Aug 07, 2014 2:32 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Holy Crap!

You have a motherload of FANSTASTIC Parts.

Yes, those are the correct ball joints...and yes...they should be tight as a M*therf*cker to move by hand. They will loosen up a bit on driving.

AND FOR GODS SAKE...DO NOT BEAT ON THEM WITH A HAMMER.

Yes the grease makes them a little tight...but what you are feeling is the pressure from the internal spring.

You can find "some" NOS ball joints....and a few that are of questionable quality made by an aftermarket supplier....but the ball joints are no longer made.....and have not been since 1984....so keep your old ones too. I am in the process of molding new boots for them.

DO NOT install the joints until you make some gaskets out of very thin paper or aluminum sheet to go between the bottom of the strut and the steering knuckle and the bottom of the knuckle and the ball joint.

See that hole in the side of the ball joint casting? That is a "weep" hole. It is there because water leaks around the knuckle and strut housing flanges. It commonly rusts the strut housing bottom into the knuckle. Bad.

A great mod is to do the gaskets as I noted....and then drill a single 1/8" hole dead center of the hump inside of the ball joint "cup" area. Then, thread the outer weep hole and put in a shallow grease-sert. In this way your ball joints will last virtually forever.
juust put a drill stop collar on the drill . This will not hurt the ball joint. That dome is in the center of the spring on the upper cup...so there is a 1/2" of space on the other side. You will not hit the ball or cup. Just drill slow and keep dusting the hole so little or no filings get in. Even if they do...its not an issue.

I have nice gaskets.....expertly cut....if I do say so myself! I can scan one and e-mail the pattern to you.

The tie rod ends.....the TRW ones with no grease fitting.....damn your lucky hide! Those are original TRW...and are THE VERY BEST MONEY CAN BUY.
I just bought the last four I could find for my car. They quit making them like that so TRW/MOOG told me 2 weeks ago. Yes...they are damn tight and supposed to be that way...and will stay that way or very close to it for eons. It only helps your steering and will not hurt it.

The tie rod end on the right....is newish TRW. You can tell from the ribbed boot. The one on the left is older and have the original bot. Both are equal. The part #'s are ES419L...right? those are outer left hand thread tie rod ends.

The next picture....on the left you have an ORIGINAL TRW ES419R...with the original 9* bend which is an original inner tie rod end with right hand threads.........AND ARE UNOBTANIUM.....you lucky bastard! If I saw you on the street and knew you had that in your pocket I would beat you senseless and rob you of it!....just kidding....but I have been searching for those

The tie rod end in the orange and blue box....is a MOOG part. It is part of what they call their "Problem Solver line".....do NOT use this on your car. It will probably be an inner tie rod end....right hand thread...also with the part # ES419R....but you will notice that it has a sintered grease socket with a grease fitting....all very nice....but the boot s an unclamped boot.

And...being that it is an un-bent tie-rod end...which you can use....but being without the 9* bend it will keep the boot cocked at a tight angle all the time...which will cause all kinds of crap to get into the joint freezing it in no time.
Just get another type of tie-rod end...straight if need be....with a normal boot.


I just finished a modification that you can do at home if you have a decent drill press......and that is...the fact that the inner two tie rods are bent...and the only source for them...at about $50 each is ISP west (the type 3 uses one of them).....but I have no idea of the quality or brand or how long they will be available.

So.....I made a 10* angle adapter for each side of my inner tie-rod. It uses two pieces of 4140 chromoly 7/8" hex bar...one end cut straight, the other at a 10* angle....then both ends bored...one at that 10* angle....tapped for 14mm 1.5 thread. My tie rods I shortened by 2" with a hacksaw and deeper threaded them.....then I cut the threaded rod off the old tie-rods to mount on the inner end and pinned the adapter to the new straight tie-rod end and the threaded coupling. Fits and adjust like factory...but now allows the use of any straight ES419R on the inside with the correct angle.

The steering damper is top notch. Generally unless the outer seal leaks...I have not found them to go bad sitting on the shelf.....lucky you!

I have anther mod that I can also show you that will allow you to take a piece of angle iron and one extra bolt.....and install two of those dampers end to end spoon style.....MAJOR improvement in driving smoothness.

I am also...hopefully this weekend....going to be removing the threaded steel mounting end from one of my old ones.....which is the only type 4 unique feature of these dampers....and finding a way to properly mount it on say...a type 3 or beetle damper which will fit just fine then.

In the spring I bought two made in mexico dampers for a type 4...you see them on ebay all the time...for about $25 each. They are slim and tight....but.....the threaded end....has the wrong thread in it Rolling Eyes freakin third world manufacturing.

Now...lets talk about that strut cartridge. No.....that is not the correct strut cartridge for your car. But.....it looks like a factory mod to use a shorter strut cartridge to fit in your...which is very similar to the audi strut mod I use.
Being that yours is a 1974...and they have done a fair range of strange mods from the factory for 411/412 that we just may not have seen yet....its highly possible that they will fit.

The top stub/step section is...correct...but not for a 1974...perhaps yes...a late 1973 ...while technically a 1974 factory model...the last of the actual late 1974 used a different bump stop and dust boot to be able to use that strut top with the late asymmetrical strut bushing

But....I am down any day...maybe this weekend...for sure next weekend...to assembling my finished struts with the Audi modification. I will be taking pictures and Have full measurements. Its just down to assembly now.

For the few who have done this mod from my directions two years ago....my apologies. While the measurements of the adapter stub I furnished were 100% correct.....there were several details I was not able to verify from memory...my car was in storage 1200 miles away at the time.
Without these few odd details.....getting everything perfect would have been difficult.
This set is now done down to UHMW glide rings made from scratch, upper and lower spring rubber made from scratch...both doable for the same $20 bill at home.....and yes...I have tested these over many thousands of miles before...and they look and work better than factory. Also....brand new dust boots using the original bump stops...but the new boots are available at AutoZone...$12 each and fit awesome!... I have part #'s and photo install details.
Also.....the inside strut spacer made from black iron pipe from Home depot....I have photos and exact measurements....and laastly all the details for the strut rod bushings...what to use and what not to use in the available from the factory combinations...to get the planned for 1.0-1.25" front end drop that sets the car dead level front too back...or slightly lower in front.

Actually...if you would like to send that strange strut cartridge to me...I can test fit it together in one of my spare struts...photograph it and measure it and have it back to you quick. Ray
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Kinggourd
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PostPosted: Mon Aug 11, 2014 5:00 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thanks a bunch for all the info Ray!! Ahhh I had no odea these parts were so good haha. I hope I'm not blowing it by putting them into only a so-so car.

Yes, that would be great if you sent me those ball joint gasket templates, I'll DM you my email. I also cant wait to see your new strut mod so I can do it to this old girl. I just started welding on it the other day so hopefully I'l have a solid driver soon.

I know I'm gunna have some more questions coming at ya soon as I progress. Thans man!
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