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The Baja Bug - First Timer's Thread
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EnjoyNukaCola
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PostPosted: Thu Apr 09, 2015 7:49 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

That makes two for ditching it, so I will.
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"when i go to drive it i get to like 5-10 mph it is at high rpms and gets higher the faster i go when i shift up to second the rpms drop is this normal or what and this is my first vw please help"
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dustymojave
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PostPosted: Thu Apr 09, 2015 8:00 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

That is a Ford starter relay. they've been used by Ford for many decades.

In a VW, the power path from the battery forward to the ignition switch in front, then back to the starter is very looooong, with a number of connections in between. When the connections and the contacts inside the switch are getting corroded and sloppy, and the wires are getting old, sometimes there is not enough voltage or amps at the VW starter solenoid to engage and then kick the starter motor in.

The Ford frame relay doesn't need nearly as strong of a signal to operate as the VW solenoid does. So by using it, a weak signal at the relay is translated into a strong signal to the solenoid on the starter and thus the starter kicks over strongly. Re-wiring the whole car makes it theoretically unnecessary now, but I recommend you keep it in the circuit there in case.

If the Ford relay quits ( and they don't very often - they're really reliable), replacements are readily available at the FLAPS for a few bucks. From the early 1950s cars and pickups into the 1990s cars and pickups, there are few real differences in them and as long as you get one which has 2 big battery cable connections on the sides and at least 1 small connection for the wire from the ignition switch it will work.

It's funny that Chevy guys hate Fords SO BAD, yet he's right that lots of Chevys have Ford starter relays to help them work. Note also that it's been over 50 years since a Chevy won a NASCAR race without a Ford rear axle.
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Richard
Offroading VW based cars since 1965
Tech Inspection 1963 - 2012 SCCA/SCORE/HDRA/MORE/MDR +
Retired from building Bajas, Fiberglass Buggies and Rails in the Mojave Desert. Also Sprints & Midgets, Dry Lakes, Road Race cars. All types New and Vintage
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EnjoyNukaCola
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PostPosted: Thu Apr 09, 2015 8:27 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Okay, okay, I'll keep it! So wiring it means one from battery through body to the relay, main battery from fuse box (with a fuse link), and ignition switch wire. I'll probably keep the wires in between intact (don't have those special connectors or tools).

I'm going to ask several questions while I can...

I wired some of the front lights and speedometer today. It went pretty smooth although I'm unsure of the hazard light wiring, there is a hazard flasher relay that said not included in the harness. I still have the original one so how would I go about wiring this up, or do I need to?

I phoned rebel wire so I think I have it planned correctly, but I ran SIX wires through the hole under the rear seat. One is for the main battery from fuse box, ignition starter wire (both to starter), back up light wire to trans, and three wires to generator. I'm running a 10 gauge from voltage regulator to plus side and a 14 gauge back, and a 14 gauge ground from the gen to voltage regulator. There's also the one battery cable that jumps from the VR to the battery in a short cable that I'm leaving (those wide push on connectors are hard to find). That's mostly what I'm concerned about getting right. Trying to avoid this...

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Here's a diagram for the hazard. Use the top.
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One last thing, I broke my turn signal switch. Well, it was sort of broken it didn't click down right or return correctly. So I opened it up and broke it more. There's just, no fixing it at this point. I was just at a pick a part and saw a beautiful complete steering column from a 73 so I'm still kicking myself but I might go back to see if its there. Anyway, how do I wire up a DPDT switch for the meantime.
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"when i go to drive it i get to like 5-10 mph it is at high rpms and gets higher the faster i go when i shift up to second the rpms drop is this normal or what and this is my first vw please help"
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dustymojave
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PostPosted: Thu Apr 09, 2015 9:06 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Dale M might have a diagram for it. I have one in my Baja that's been there since the early 70s.

So I can describe how I have it.

1st off...an SPDT will work at least as well as a DPDT.

Power goes to the turn flasher (I use a simple 2-prong can flasher not a complex one) and then to the center terminal(s) of the switch. My switch is built so when the lever is to the right, the power goes to the terminal on the left. So wires to the left turn indicators connect to the right side terminal(s) of the switch and wires to the right side turn indicators connect to he left side terminal(s) of the switch.

It's actually really simple.
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Retired from building Bajas, Fiberglass Buggies and Rails in the Mojave Desert. Also Sprints & Midgets, Dry Lakes, Road Race cars. All types New and Vintage
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EnjoyNukaCola
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PostPosted: Thu Apr 09, 2015 10:25 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

My mistake, it is a single pole with two directions. So SPDT.

Check this out from an off road show in Newhall tonight.

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"when i go to drive it i get to like 5-10 mph it is at high rpms and gets higher the faster i go when i shift up to second the rpms drop is this normal or what and this is my first vw please help"
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BUGGUTZ
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PostPosted: Fri Apr 10, 2015 6:38 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Correct me if im wrong but a Ford solenoid works off ground does it not? I run old style 4 post solenoids on my plow truck and I have it wired to activate off a ground.
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dustymojave
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PostPosted: Fri Apr 10, 2015 6:30 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

It won't really work on the ground side. It allows more voltage and more amperage to arrive at the starter solenoid. That would not happen if the relay were placed in the ground circuit, which in this case is the motor grounding through the trans case. Most any manual switch can be placed between battery hot and the load, but this is a case where that won't work.

But the Ford starter relay is intended to be in the battery+ circuit between the battery and the starter motor. That is what the large terminals are for.

The small terminal gets a 14 or 16 gauge wire from the ignition switch to energize the relay. Is that what you mean buggutz?

Battery cables can be bought at most stores, even Walmart, with ends for 5/16" lugs like on the relay and on the starter, so special crimpers are not needed if that concerns you Trevor.
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Offroading VW based cars since 1965
Tech Inspection 1963 - 2012 SCCA/SCORE/HDRA/MORE/MDR +
Retired from building Bajas, Fiberglass Buggies and Rails in the Mojave Desert. Also Sprints & Midgets, Dry Lakes, Road Race cars. All types New and Vintage
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Kicked Cancer's A$$...1st and 2nd round...Fight ain't over yet.
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EnjoyNukaCola
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PostPosted: Fri Apr 10, 2015 11:16 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

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"when i go to drive it i get to like 5-10 mph it is at high rpms and gets higher the faster i go when i shift up to second the rpms drop is this normal or what and this is my first vw please help"
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BUGGUTZ
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PostPosted: Sat Apr 11, 2015 9:08 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Let me see if I can explain. The way we run 12v solenoids on Western plows is the large post terminals carry the 12v positive as normal. The small "trigger" terminal would be a switchable ground activating the solenoid. They used to make them in a single small post solenoid. Cant seem to find them now so I use a 4 post with 2 large and 2 small. I jump from the constant power side to one of the small posts (cant remember which off hand) and that makes the other small post switchable ground. Thus requiring no additional power to run the starter motor.

I was thinking that would be the reasoning behind the extra solenoid back in the day, im sure it would work the same in 6v application.

Google Western Mark III wiring.
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dustymojave
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PostPosted: Sun Apr 12, 2015 2:56 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

EnjoyNukaCola wrote:
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12Volt stock Bosch Voltage Regulator.
For 12V generator and (IIRC) some non-internally regulated alternators.
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Richard
Offroading VW based cars since 1965
Tech Inspection 1963 - 2012 SCCA/SCORE/HDRA/MORE/MDR +
Retired from building Bajas, Fiberglass Buggies and Rails in the Mojave Desert. Also Sprints & Midgets, Dry Lakes, Road Race cars. All types New and Vintage
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Kicked Cancer's A$$...1st and 2nd round...Fight ain't over yet.
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EnjoyNukaCola
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PostPosted: Sun Apr 12, 2015 7:17 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Put the battery back in to test, the starter cranks over but that's about all that's happening. No idiot lights? And not sure if I'm getting 12V at the coil or gen posts. At ignition on there isn't power to the terminals there for some reason. (Test probe shows battery lead good and starter is good when the key is bumped to start).
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"when i go to drive it i get to like 5-10 mph it is at high rpms and gets higher the faster i go when i shift up to second the rpms drop is this normal or what and this is my first vw please help"
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EnjoyNukaCola
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PostPosted: Wed Apr 15, 2015 3:34 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Haven't looked at it since Sunday. What I did was use a test light across the gen terminals and got nothing. Also nothing from the coil to ground when the ignition is on. I have the red wire coming off the VR to D+, a black to DF and a black from the VR ground to gen ground. I thought I may have swapped the two blacks on accident, so I switched them at the VR and still got nothing.
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"when i go to drive it i get to like 5-10 mph it is at high rpms and gets higher the faster i go when i shift up to second the rpms drop is this normal or what and this is my first vw please help"
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ORANGECRUSHer
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PostPosted: Thu Apr 16, 2015 6:00 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Your coil power should come from the main fuse panel IIRC and run straight to the coil and nothing else. You can always run a new fused wire back to get power there if all else fails. Your wiring in the pictures looks like it's in great shape though. Ignition switch in on position (accessory 12v ) goes to coil 12v+.
DF is basically your generator warning light wire, but it looks like it runs to one corner of the VR and then contiues from the opposite corner on to the dash.
Not sure, but you should be able to ground the generator to chassis. VR housing can be grounded to the chassis. Make sure you ground the tab coming off the housing and not the black wire on the terminal labeled #61.
good luck

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EnjoyNukaCola
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PostPosted: Sat Apr 18, 2015 3:15 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Made several rookie mistakes in trying to get the idiot lights going. I focused on the oil switch first and realized it never had power, so I spliced into the other side of the coil. Light comes on, great. Turn ind light does too when tripped (They are wired oppositely in the rear, but that's another issue). Then I never hooked up gauge power to the speedo as I thought the bottom most tab was a ground tab, and that the wire was for add on gauges. I splice the gauge power into two and connect it at the bottom tab as well as the fuel gauge up top. Speedo is grounded from two points. Alt gen light now comes on but oil does not. After alternating some stuff at one point I had both lights on at ignition but when I'd trip the flasher, the idiot lights would blink like turn indicators. So I unplugged everything and walked away. The ignition and horn are the only things I've tested and work properly. I've not had any luck with the light switches, hazards or dimmer, as it was not wired for high beams to begin with and the hazards require relays which I'm shady on. I know this is a learning experience, but #$%^ I want to drive this thing. Brick wall
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"when i go to drive it i get to like 5-10 mph it is at high rpms and gets higher the faster i go when i shift up to second the rpms drop is this normal or what and this is my first vw please help"
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dustymojave
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PostPosted: Fri Apr 24, 2015 10:21 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Power for the idiot lights comes from the front - grounds at the engine. The oil pressure light grounds through the sending unit into the engine block. If the Alt/Gen light is not wired right the alt/gen will not create power.
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Offroading VW based cars since 1965
Tech Inspection 1963 - 2012 SCCA/SCORE/HDRA/MORE/MDR +
Retired from building Bajas, Fiberglass Buggies and Rails in the Mojave Desert. Also Sprints & Midgets, Dry Lakes, Road Race cars. All types New and Vintage
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PostPosted: Sat Apr 25, 2015 6:20 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I'm using the old relays for the dimmer and hazards. The dimmer is going to be wired with a doorknob type button that used to be the horn because it has to be momentary. My question is can I use just any relay with a on off switch or on off on to switch hi and lo. I have a handful of new ones rated at 50A/30A with terminals 30, 85, 86, 87, 87. How to wire these up too please.
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"when i go to drive it i get to like 5-10 mph it is at high rpms and gets higher the faster i go when i shift up to second the rpms drop is this normal or what and this is my first vw please help"
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dustymojave
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PostPosted: Sat Apr 25, 2015 7:00 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Don't know why you feel it necessary to complicate things with relays. Why not just wire direct with switches?

The engineering reason to use relays is when carrying sufficient load through the switch is not practical.

My Baja Bug has no relays other than the turn indicator flasher. Hazard flashers could be wired pretty simply too.

I'm using the 1958 dimmer switch. That function could be achieved with a DPST on-on toggle and no relay.
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Offroading VW based cars since 1965
Tech Inspection 1963 - 2012 SCCA/SCORE/HDRA/MORE/MDR +
Retired from building Bajas, Fiberglass Buggies and Rails in the Mojave Desert. Also Sprints & Midgets, Dry Lakes, Road Race cars. All types New and Vintage
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Kicked Cancer's A$$...1st and 2nd round...Fight ain't over yet.
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PostPosted: Sat Apr 25, 2015 8:34 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

The wiring diagram shows reference to original dimmer and hazard flashers. I deviated from it the first time and didn't get much of anything. So now I'm referencing everything exactly using the late model switch directions.
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dustymojave
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PostPosted: Sun Apr 26, 2015 11:16 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

If you have the pieces to build it per the instructions that you have and which came with the kit, go for it.

I'm not trying to confuse the issue. Just trying to provide a simpler alternative if following the instructions is not working for you and/if you do not have the pieces they call for.
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Offroading VW based cars since 1965
Tech Inspection 1963 - 2012 SCCA/SCORE/HDRA/MORE/MDR +
Retired from building Bajas, Fiberglass Buggies and Rails in the Mojave Desert. Also Sprints & Midgets, Dry Lakes, Road Race cars. All types New and Vintage
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Kicked Cancer's A$$...1st and 2nd round...Fight ain't over yet.
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EnjoyNukaCola
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PostPosted: Sun Apr 26, 2015 8:12 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Made some good progress today. I wired up the switches for the two relays the car had before, one is silver with four main prongs that I believe is for the dimmer, another says Flosser and is three prong which is with the hazards but I'm just using two prongs. Hazards work fine they flash at a normal speed but are only on a keyed system, I want them to flash with the key out or not like the other lights (how to?) Turn signals work ok the indicator inside does not. It sounds like they are slower than the hazards. They do NOT work with the running lights on so there's something incorrect about the flasher and running light circuits. They are wired together at the switch so I think its there, it doesn't click either. Running lights ok, no headlights at all. Brake lights one is out. No oil light still. Also routed all new fuel line in the back with the filter over the CV joint and the metal tube bent around the engine tin like we (dustymojave) talked about.
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The dimmer is wired up to a push button switch, but if I don't have the right relay or something (car did not have Hi/Lo before) than I think I just want to ditch it and go for the double throw switch. If you know of a diagram that would be really helpful.
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"when i go to drive it i get to like 5-10 mph it is at high rpms and gets higher the faster i go when i shift up to second the rpms drop is this normal or what and this is my first vw please help"
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