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MotoMike
Samba Member
Joined: June 13, 2013
Posts: 120
Location: Durango, CO
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 Posted: Tue Jun 17, 2014 4:54 pm Post subject: Buying a 53 - VIN question |
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I am working a deal on a 53 oval, the pan and body # says 11/53, but on the title it's using the motor # for the VIN, which is a 1500. I have never heard of this happening before and I am afraid of the potential mess this might stir up. PO has had the car for 40 plus years and it hasn't been tagged since 91.
I have a 65 type 1 now, this is the first time I have ever tried to delve into such an old bug.
Any thoughts or wisdom? |
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xeno
Samba Member
Joined: July 26, 2006
Posts: 653
Location: Mile High
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| Posted: Tue Jun 17, 2014 10:06 pm Post subject: Re: Buying a 53 - VIN question |
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| MotoMike wrote: |
I am working a deal on a 53 oval, the pan and body # says 11/53, but on the title it's using the motor # for the VIN, which is a 1500. I have never heard of this happening before and I am afraid of the potential mess this might stir up. PO has had the car for 40 plus years and it hasn't been tagged since 91.
I have a 65 type 1 now, this is the first time I have ever tried to delve into such an old bug.
Any thoughts or wisdom? |
Back in the day, DMV/VIN inspectors would use the engine serial(incorrectly).
I'm not sure if your saying that the 1953 Bug has a 1500cc engine and title that matches the engine serial? If that is the case, then the title is really for a 60's bug(when the engine was built).
Anycase... You should have the owner correct the discrepancy and have the title match the year and the serial stamped on the frame (which should be the same as the one on the VIN plaque.) Otherwise you may have trouble in the future.
_________________
Currenlty Corralled:
1952 Crotch Cooler Deluxe (US specs delivered to Stuttgart, Germany GI.)
1955 Early (Competition Motors - Hollywood, California)
1974 Thing (US specs - Mexicanos)
2008 Rabbit S (Wolfsburg DE)
2012 Golf TDI Tech Package (Wolfsburg DE) |
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L41ThreeFold
Samba Member
Joined: June 09, 2014
Posts: 15
Location: United States
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| Posted: Tue Jun 17, 2014 11:42 pm Post subject: |
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You are actually in luck. In the eyes of the California DMV, this 53 Oval you are referring to does not exist. In California we call it "off the system" or "off the record". This is a good thing for one big reason: NO BACK FEES!!
The best way to handle this situation is as follows:
1. Call DMV and ask them how much it will cost to register the vehicle. DO NOT give them the license plate number or engine number. Give them the ACTUAL VIN number. Assuming the information you provided is correct, there should be a 99.99% percent chance that they will tell you "no record on file". Thats what you are hoping for.
2. Remove the plates from the vehicle and set them aside along with the useless title you received from the previous owner. For the remainder of my instructions, pretend the plates and title don't exist.
3. Take the vehicle to get the VIN #'s verified. I recommend letting your local DMV office do it. The CHP can be real dicks about it depending on the officer doing the inspection.
4. File the VIN verification form at your local DMV along with a DMV "statement of facts" form stating that you are the owner of the car (true), the car is inoperable & has been off the road for over 23 years (true), and that the title to the car cannot be found (true). Then mention that you are extremely disappointed that the DMV has purged the records regarding your car from their system and you would like to respectfully ask for a replacement title and the car to be placed in "non-op" status. Your fees should be $15 for the replacement title. DO NOT let them try to charge you more. Ask for a supervisor if they try to hit you with "transfer fees" "transfer taxes" or "late transfer penalties". Remind them YOU ARE THE OWNER and have been for a long time ("long time" is open to interpretation:) and the only reason you are there is because the DMV screwed up and purged the records for your car from their system. Make no mention of the person you bought the car from.
5. Once you get the "title-only" with the car in non-op status, you can bring the car out of "non-op" status by just paying the current year registration fees. As you work on the car, you can get "one-day" moving permits from the Auto Club or DMV. Nice clerks will give you two, validate them with an official stamp, and leave the dates blank (valid for 60 days). Keep the permit on a clipboard riding shotgun with you as you tow or drive the oval. If you get pulled over, quickly lean over and scribble the date of that particular day on the form. Do it on the sly so the officer/deputy can't see you do it.
The reason why I would do it like I suggested is simple. If you ask 10 DMV clerks what you need for a transaction, you will most likely get 10 different answers. They are the epitome of inefficient, inflexible bureaucracy. You can always try to bring your title to them along with the car and try to explain away the discrepancy. I personally would not roll the dice. The chances of you presenting your case of the VIN discrepancy to an ignorant kid at the DMV who will make your life living hell is fairly high. VIN swaps/alterations are federal crimes, and your good, pure intentions of fixing a 61-year-old clerical error may very well end up with you having a sit-down with CHP auto-theft detectives. Not fun. Happened to a friend of mine over 10 years ago with the EXACT same situation. The vast majority of pre-55 ovals originally registered in California used the engine number as the VIN. Very common knowledge to experienced members of the VW community. NOT common knowledge to your average DMV agent or CHP officer.
Best of luck to you!! |
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txoval
Samba Member
Joined: January 23, 2004
Posts: 3552
Location: The Woodlands, TX
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| Posted: Wed Jun 18, 2014 6:08 am Post subject: |
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You are in CA, so I would listen to the post above. Also, as stated above, using the engine number was common practice back in the day. If the Title says 1953 Beetle (or Type I) with VIN matching the engine serial number than I honestly believe you have the correct title and everything is legitimate.
My 54 is the same way. The car spent most of its life in CA, moved to west Texas (Lubbock) and during the title transfer the VIN became the engine serial number. In Texas it's easy, you go the County Sheriff department, they check the VIN and make the change on the title.
Good luck |
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MotoMike
Samba Member
Joined: June 13, 2013
Posts: 120
Location: Durango, CO
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| Posted: Wed Jun 18, 2014 7:47 am Post subject: |
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Thank you for the advice, I am going to check and make sure the pan #'s are truly out of the system today, I can do it over the phone through Auto Club. I would rather take a month of beatings than step foot in a DMV office around here.
Thanks again, I'll let you know how it turns out! |
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jason
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Joined: August 07, 2002
Posts: 3444
Location: Garage
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| Posted: Wed Jun 18, 2014 12:20 pm Post subject: |
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| You need to be sure that the car is completely assembled too. I had one car that I noticed had a wrong serial on the title. Car has been in family since the 90's. DMV messed it up and no one caught it. AAA won't verify it unless it is complete with motor and speedo. I also just registered my car that wasn't registered since 95. Like the previous post says, they go by what you have. If you don't have the plates and title, they go by the vin you have. I used a mobile vin verifier. He charged me $60, came to my house and verified the vin. I took the paper to DMV, payed the fees and got my registration. You can have the seller give you a bill of sale with the correct vin. Glad I did because mine isn't complete. He checked the pan # and wrote the mileage down from the speedo. Easier too, I didn't have to trailer it down to AAA since it isn't registered. Registration was a little over $60. |
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MotoMike
Samba Member
Joined: June 13, 2013
Posts: 120
Location: Durango, CO
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| Posted: Wed Jun 18, 2014 12:34 pm Post subject: |
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I have used a mobile VIN guy in the past, or I can trailer it to Auto Club and they will do it for free. I'll figure that out later. I called AC, and it is definitely out of the system. Hooray!
Car is complete and runs, just not real shiny. When the deal is done I will post some pictures. It's pretty rough, but the body shell and pan are solid and all the glass is in it. |
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THX 1138
Samba Member
Joined: September 22, 2013
Posts: 52
Location: San Francisco CA
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| Posted: Wed Jun 18, 2014 7:30 pm Post subject: |
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| L41ThreeFold wrote: |
You are actually in luck. In the eyes of the California DMV, this 53 Oval you are referring to does not exist. In California we call it "off the system" or "off the record". This is a good thing for one big reason: NO BACK FEES!!
2. Remove the plates from the vehicle and set them aside along with the useless title you received from the previous owner. For the remainder of my instructions, pretend the plates and title don't exist.
4. File the VIN verification form at your local DMV along with a DMV "statement of facts" form stating that you are the owner of the car (true), the car is inoperable & has been off the road for over 23 years (true), and that the title to the car cannot be found (true). Then mention that you are extremely disappointed that the DMV has purged the records regarding your car from their system and you would like to respectfully ask for a replacement title and the car to be placed in "non-op" status. Your fees should be $15 for the replacement title. DO NOT let them try to charge you more. Ask for a supervisor if they try to hit you with "transfer fees" "transfer taxes" or "late transfer penalties". Remind them YOU ARE THE OWNER and have been for a long time ("long time" is open to interpretation:) and the only reason you are there is because the DMV screwed up and purged the records for your car from their system. Make no mention of the person you bought the car from.
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I have a few questions, how does a car go 'off the system'? Let's just say in the example above, if you had really owned the car over 23 years then at some point you had the title and were paying registration fees. So that would mean that somewhere along the way you stopped paying the registration fee which would imply that you owe back fees. I know on all the cars I have under non-op in CA I get a letter every year. Some of you that have yours cars non-op in CA are familiar with it. The ‘This is not a Bill’ letter which just states the car is in non-op status. Will I eventually stop receiving these letters and my cars will go off the system?
Also how do you explain that you have no plates for the car? Should you also buy plates from one of the vintage plate venders that are guaranteed to be ‘off the system’? Other than my questions that’s a good post and info. |
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L41ThreeFold
Samba Member
Joined: June 09, 2014
Posts: 15
Location: United States
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| Posted: Wed Jun 18, 2014 10:36 pm Post subject: |
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| THX 1138 wrote: |
I have a few questions, how does a car go 'off the system'? |
I don't think that there is an "official" time period (probably internal DMV info), but generally speaking when there is ZERO activity or system inquiries on a California-registered VIN or license plate for SEVEN - EIGHT years, that VIN and corresponding license plate is then "purged" from the system and any subsequent inquiries after that point come back as "record not on file". ALL BACK FEES ELIMINATED!! (If you follow my instructions in my previous post in this thread).
Couple of things to remember:
1. You cannot "make" a car go "off the system" by waving a magic wand. Only 7-8 years of inactivity (no VIN and/or plate inquiries) will cause a car to disappear from the system.
2. All inquiries reset the clock. So if you have your special project VW in the driveway waiting to go "off the system" and your local policeman is bored and decides to "run" your plate, then your clock is reset. Also, if you check every year like a lot of people, then your clock will be reset and most likely you will be waiting for the rest of your life for the car to go "off the system" |
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L41ThreeFold
Samba Member
Joined: June 09, 2014
Posts: 15
Location: United States
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| Posted: Wed Jun 18, 2014 10:55 pm Post subject: |
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| jason wrote: |
| You need to be sure that the car is completely assembled too. I had one car that I noticed had a wrong serial on the title. Car has been in family since the 90's. DMV messed it up and no one caught it. AAA won't verify it unless it is complete with motor and speedo. I also just registered my car that wasn't registered since 95. Like the previous post says, they go by what you have. If you don't have the plates and title, they go by the vin you have. I used a mobile vin verifier. He charged me $60, came to my house and verified the vin. I took the paper to DMV, payed the fees and got my registration. You can have the seller give you a bill of sale with the correct vin. Glad I did because mine isn't complete. He checked the pan # and wrote the mileage down from the speedo. Easier too, I didn't have to trailer it down to AAA since it isn't registered. Registration was a little over $60. |
I have differing experiences than Mr. Jason:
1. AAA does not verify VIN #'s
2. Car does not need to be completely assembled ….. screwing in a speedo may make the process go smoother, however, since putting "NONE" where the mileage is supposed to go on the paperwork will raise some eyebrows.
3. My method of doing it eliminates the need for the seller bill of sale. Remember, on a transfer you will need to pay taxes, transfer fee, and if not done within 10 days of the purchase a penalty will be assessed for late transfer. All three of those fees are avoidable if you go to the DMV with the attitude that it is your car and all you want is a replacement title. Make no mention of transfer of ownership. |
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L41ThreeFold
Samba Member
Joined: June 09, 2014
Posts: 15
Location: United States
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| Posted: Wed Jun 18, 2014 11:23 pm Post subject: |
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| THX 1138 wrote: |
| Let's just say in the example above, if you had really owned the car over 23 years |
Be really careful not to lie on the "statement of facts" form. I never mentioned that you should claim that you have owned the car for 23 years. Pay attention to my wording. Should go something like this:
"I, Joe Blow, do hereby declare that I am the owner of this vehicle. My vehicle is inoperable, needs full restoration, and has been off the road for at least 23 years. I do hereby certify that my vehicle has not been on a public highway or road for the past 23 years. For some bizarre reason, the DMV computers have lost all information regarding my vehicle. I cannot find the title for my vehicle and I would like to respectfully request a duplicate title and the placement of my vehicle into "non-operational" status. Attached is the vehicle VIN verification form. Thank you."
This style of "statement of facts" has always worked well for me. It gives the reader the impression that you have owned the car for a very long time without explicitly mentioning you bought it a few days ago. It is INTENTIONALLY vague and only provides the DMV with what they want to hear…. nothing more. |
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L41ThreeFold
Samba Member
Joined: June 09, 2014
Posts: 15
Location: United States
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| Posted: Wed Jun 18, 2014 11:28 pm Post subject: |
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| THX 1138 wrote: |
Also how do you explain that you have no plates for the car? |
You will not be asked, so you will not need to explain. |
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L41ThreeFold
Samba Member
Joined: June 09, 2014
Posts: 15
Location: United States
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| Posted: Wed Jun 18, 2014 11:52 pm Post subject: |
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| THX 1138 wrote: |
Should you also buy plates from one of the vintage plate venders that are guaranteed to be ‘off the system’? |
You should only buy license plates Mon-Fri when you can check FOR YOURSELF if the plates are "in use" or "record not on file" by calling DMV. 8:00AM-8:30AM is the best time to call. Using their "call-back" system is convenient as well (eliminates being on hold).
Plates "in-use" cannot be used with the YOM program. "record not on file" plates can be used for YOM purposes assuming the year is correct and configuration is correct (passenger configurations are different than commercial configurations). EXCEPTION: Plates currently "in-use" through the YOM program may be transferred to a different vehicle of THE SAME YEAR ONLY!!
I LOL when I see plates on the Bay with sellers promising they are "DMV clear" with 2012 sticker showing. Without even checking, I can bet my life that those plates with 2012 stickers are 100% "NOT CLEAR" (remember 7-8 years of inactivity to fall into "off the system" status??).
BUYER BEWARE WITH OLD PLATES!!
In a pinch (weekend or swap-meet buy), you can go to the DMV website and follow instructions for ordering personalized plates to check to see if a plate number is taken or not. (Only exception is if the plate has the number "zero" in it. CA DMV will not let you order plates online with the number "zero" so you cannot check any plates that have that number). I have had good luck with those DMV website searches in the past (Has been accurate info for me).
GOOD LUCK!!! |
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pip hancox
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Joined: February 01, 2005
Posts: 362
Location: Temecula,CA
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| Posted: Thu Jun 19, 2014 2:04 pm Post subject: |
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be very careful with this. I have done this numerous times trying to order a new plate with an old number sequence and it will let you believe its available all the way up until you go to pay for it with your credit card then "license plate unavailable" pops up on the screen!
yes I have smacked my computer many times over this!! 
cheers,
pip.
_________________
DBK!
'49 Standard.
'51 Crotch Cooler.
'58 Kombi.
'65 Notchback.
'64 Ghia.
2 Things.
wifes 2332 '59 lowlight ghia.
Last edited by pip hancox on Fri Jun 20, 2014 11:06 am; edited 1 time in total |
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L41ThreeFold
Samba Member
Joined: June 09, 2014
Posts: 15
Location: United States
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| Posted: Thu Jun 19, 2014 4:41 pm Post subject: |
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| pip hancox wrote: |
be vey careful with this. I have done this numerous times trying to order a new plate with an old number sequence and it will let you believe its available all the way up until you go to pay for it with your credit card then "license plate unavailable" pops up on the screen!
yes I have smacked my computer many times over this!!
cheers,
pip. |
The DMV will not let you "complete" orders for certain sequences, the most popular one being the sequence for the passenger 56 or 63 base plates (Three consecutive letters followed by three consecutive numbers). The website will however let you know if the number is taken early in the process. I mentioned this method as a way of checking availability …. not for ordering.
PIP - You are a legend my man…... |
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pip hancox
Samba Member
Joined: February 01, 2005
Posts: 362
Location: Temecula,CA
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| Posted: Fri Jun 20, 2014 11:09 am Post subject: |
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thank you sir! 
speaking of 53's, here the ragtop I just finished....
cheers,
pip.
_________________
DBK!
'49 Standard.
'51 Crotch Cooler.
'58 Kombi.
'65 Notchback.
'64 Ghia.
2 Things.
wifes 2332 '59 lowlight ghia. |
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The Vdub Hub
Samba Member
Joined: May 03, 2008
Posts: 193
Location: California USA
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| Posted: Sat Oct 11, 2014 5:21 am Post subject: Plates |
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| Very good info, thanks. |
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AlteWagen
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Joined: February 23, 2007
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Location: PNW
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