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msinabottle Samba Member
Joined: September 20, 2005 Posts: 3492 Location: Denver Area, Colorado
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Posted: Tue Jun 17, 2014 7:39 pm Post subject: Winston Weak, Wearies Worrier |
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Oh, I still love him--as much as ever. But it's been a weary week. I've been too tired to write up the long post about replacing Winston's fuel lines with metal ones--and that went perfectly.
I used tencentlife's trick of puffs of air to drive the coolant up into Winston's cooling system when I flushed and filled him last Monday. Coolant got everywhere, I had a large storage bin to catch it, but Winston seemed to be running all right... But I should have thought it meant more when he killed repeatedly as I backed him into the driveway.
Setting out for my first weekend at the job site, I caught that something was wrong early--he just didn't have his usual power, and he is perky in his way, especially in 3rd and 4th. Idle kept dropping down to zero, and he's started killing at stops, a trait growing worse as time has passed. I was scared to death at the job site that he'd quite in a bad spot--and he did--but he also grimly dragged himself home after being perfect in every other way. When I got him up to speed, he did his usual speed at his usual RPM's, but once things slowed down, he was sluggish again.
He's got a new fuel filter. Not a drop leaking from any of the new lines. Yesterday I got very busy, checking and cleaning every connection, including the engine grounds. He ran better, but still weak in third and fourth. Unplugging the Oxygen Sensor changed nothing. I called Blazer, they are CRAMMED with cars, but Larry will still try to help me Thursday. I so hope I can figure this out before then so that I won't impose upon them. Larry made some suggestions, all of them kind and anatomically possible.
Today I VERY carefully replaced the connector to the Coolant II Sensor, and the sensor itself with a new Bosch 'Made in Germany' unit. No change. I have been searching here like fun, and went out and checked the coaxial cable to the oxygen sensor, which I replaced soon after buying Winston. There appear to be no shorts, the shielding ends well back of the connector, which I had cleaned Tuesday. I got out my multi-tester, I'm never quite sure if I'm using it right, and tested the Oxygen Sensor, it never got up to 1.8 volts with the engine running--for spits and giggles I tested my alternator, which is putting out 13.2 at idle.
I made an emergency run to O'Reilley's for a new Bosch oxygen sensor. I spent the early evening trying in vain to get the old one off--the poster who said the standard anti-seize they put on those isn't enough is RIGHT, the nut rounded with the correct size wrench after a butane torch, PB Blaster, and Liquid Wrench. Also a monkey wrench in the hands of an amazed Gearhead Friend. I'll get the nickle stuff before I install the new oxygen sensor if I ever get this old one off.
The current plan is to go out and spray on the PB Blaster again tonight--then get out the propane torch, a candle, and try and try to get the old sensor off, which I'm pretty sure is hosed. It certainly is now, at least. I've been searching, get the area around the bolt cherry red, let the candle wax drip down, I had to do much the same the first time but foolishly hope for better given the anti-seize on the new unit.
I might get frantic enough to hacksaw off the body of the sensor, and use a 22mm Deep Socket and a huge long breaker bar to get off the remains of the old sensor. I could see no sign of coolant damage to any of the wiring, Winston's exhaust smells normal and puffs out strongly, nor does the catalytic converter seem hot.
I've checked vacuum lines and fittings, all the spark plug and distributor wires, the air filter--everything looks fine. He idles smoothly and evenly, unless he's coming down from higher revs, then he can drop below his usual 1K RPM's and die.
I've browsed nearly every 'sensor' thread we've got, and there's a LOT of them. Open for suggestions, but mostly venting. I do so need him this weekend. I do have faith in Winston's basic soundness and mechanical condition, but we'll just have to see.
And I am very tired--and discouraged.
Best. _________________ 'Winston,' '84 1.9 WBX Westy
Vanagon Poet Laureate: "I have suffered in
many ways, but never, never, never in silence." |
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Gruppe B Samba Member
Joined: January 16, 2007 Posts: 1331
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Posted: Tue Jun 17, 2014 8:04 pm Post subject: |
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You probably already checked but I would look at the air bypass valves hoses located underneath and to the right of the throttle body. Maybe you knocked them off when the fuel line was replaced.
Did you upgrade to the Tencent RMW exhaust system or still have the original style exhaust? |
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sea_sick Samba Member
Joined: July 21, 2012 Posts: 113 Location: West Coast
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Posted: Tue Jun 17, 2014 8:05 pm Post subject: |
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Hang in there man. Once Winston gets the attention he's demanding and is back to running properly, the joy will quickly follow... and you know it will! |
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msinabottle Samba Member
Joined: September 20, 2005 Posts: 3492 Location: Denver Area, Colorado
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Posted: Tue Jun 17, 2014 8:11 pm Post subject: Thank you for the concern... |
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Stock exhaust.
I did check those hoses--in fact I went one better and took him to Blazer so they could check over my work! He needed that, I HAD jarred one of the wires on the injector connectors out of place, but he was perfect on the road back again, although running on three cylinders wasn't a lot of fun. It wasn't for long, though.
He seemed fine until I changed the coolant. Possibly the spills got into the oxygen sensor, I did read a post where that happened to someone. Or it could just be a rotten coincidence.
I greatly appreciate kind words and input.
Best! _________________ 'Winston,' '84 1.9 WBX Westy
Vanagon Poet Laureate: "I have suffered in
many ways, but never, never, never in silence." |
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Gruppe B Samba Member
Joined: January 16, 2007 Posts: 1331
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Posted: Tue Jun 17, 2014 8:18 pm Post subject: |
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Well the stock exhaust has one good thing going for it and that is that you can unbolt the exhaust portion that has the oxygen sensor and put the sensor in a bench vise to remove, all without touching the head studs.
Still a lot of work however... |
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TequilaSunSet Samba Member
Joined: May 30, 2012 Posts: 2109 Location: Philippines
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Posted: Tue Jun 17, 2014 8:30 pm Post subject: |
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You are not allowed to quit... _________________ Don't harsh my mellow...
1985 Hightower Vanagon 1.8T- Gone
1972 Panel Bus- Gone
1967 Bug- Gone
1964 Euro Sunroof Bug- Gone
1969/72/63 Sunroof Bug- Gone
1975 Brazilian Bug in the Philippines 🇵🇭- New to me |
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dobryan Samba Member
Joined: March 24, 2006 Posts: 16474 Location: Brookeville, MD
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ezmc321 Samba Member
Joined: November 19, 2011 Posts: 15 Location: Moab, UT
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Posted: Tue Jun 17, 2014 10:10 pm Post subject: |
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I don't know why no one told you this yet, but when you test your o2 sensor it should surge around above and below .5v as it tries to maintain stoich. If it's reading consistently below a .5v average it's sensing a lean mixture, and too far above .5 it's rich. Make sure it's warmed up before you test it though.
Why do you think it's the o2 sensor?
Edit: Just saw "unplugging the o2 sensor changed nothing". Not the o2 sensor look elsewhere. |
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Terry Kay Banned
Joined: June 22, 2003 Posts: 13331
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Posted: Tue Jun 17, 2014 10:31 pm Post subject: |
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Take the propane linoleam torch and toss it.
Get some heat on the excusion that is holding it up in the pipe---red hot, and IT WILL Turn Right Out.
Not enough BTU's in the blue flamed HD flame thrower--you should know better by now---
I've never had one issue with yanking them out once I got that adapter on the pipe red hot--spin, spin, spin goodbye--good luck.
You got a socket on the oxy sensor or a box wrench or an open end?
Just curious on this one---
Happy Snappy has a sloted socket just for this operation so the wire passes through it prior to slapping the deep well socket on there --works quite well--along with the heat. _________________ T.K.
Last edited by Terry Kay on Tue Jun 17, 2014 10:59 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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Howesight Samba Member
Joined: July 02, 2008 Posts: 3262 Location: Vancouver, B.C.
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Posted: Tue Jun 17, 2014 10:54 pm Post subject: |
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The trailing throttle and idle stalling signal to me that the idle switch at the throttle is not correctly adjusted or not functioning correctly. Apart from adjustment, that switch can fail.
The lack of power in higher gears sounds to me like a possible spark timing problem. The cause may be a leak in the hose to the vacuum canister on the distributor.
These are both easy to check. See the Digi-jet Pro-Training manual:
http://www.vanagonauts.com/files/Digijet_FI.pdf _________________ '86 Syncro Westy SVX |
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msinabottle Samba Member
Joined: September 20, 2005 Posts: 3492 Location: Denver Area, Colorado
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Posted: Tue Jun 17, 2014 11:33 pm Post subject: Thank You |
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If the oxygen sensor had failed, then unplugging it wouldn't make a difference at all, hence my reasoning.
Terry, you're right--I hang my head in shame. I did get it out with propane the first time, the PB Blaster and Liquid Wrench will be working on it all night. Hot (and handy) as that little butane torch is, it clearly WASN'T enough.
I tried an open-ended wrench at first, then cut the wire and used the box end--but it's a Craftsman 'star' type and not much better... It'll be a monkey wrench after the wax-red-hot-candle routine. It's NOT entirely rounded, I filed the sides smooth, in fact, restoring the flats. The engine tin is in the way of my deep hexagonal socket--unless I saw off the upper part of the old sensor.
Howesight--I have done a visual inspection of the vacuum lines, I will do a more thorough check with vacuum. The throttle switch clicks and the connectors are all clean, but the manual--which I THOUGHT I had, wrongly, and had studied, wrongly, does offer more substantial tests.
I sincerely thank everyone who sought to buoy me up or just pierce through my befuddlement.
Best! _________________ 'Winston,' '84 1.9 WBX Westy
Vanagon Poet Laureate: "I have suffered in
many ways, but never, never, never in silence." |
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atomatom Samba Member
Joined: May 15, 2012 Posts: 1867 Location: in an 84 Westy or Bowen Island, BC
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Posted: Tue Jun 17, 2014 11:58 pm Post subject: |
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i second timing. may not be everything, but it does count for a lot. any chance you got your distributor cap on wonkywize? _________________ 84 Vanagon Westy, 1.9L, California raised but defected to Canada. |
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highaltidude Samba Member
Joined: July 18, 2005 Posts: 219 Location: Colorado Springs, CO
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Posted: Wed Jun 18, 2014 8:43 am Post subject: Re: Thank You |
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msinabottle wrote: |
Terry, you're right--I hang my head in shame. I did get it out with propane the first time, the PB Blaster and Liquid Wrench will be working on it all night. Hot (and handy) as that little butane torch is, it clearly WASN'T enough.
Best! |
MAPP gas. Yellow canister. MUCH hotter than propane. I started using it to sweat copper pipe.... I don't use propane as a torch fuel at all anymore.... Available at any hardware store.....
Chuck _________________ 66 Double Cab
83 Vanagon Westfalia, Vanistan'd |
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Terry Kay Banned
Joined: June 22, 2003 Posts: 13331
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Posted: Wed Jun 18, 2014 9:16 am Post subject: Re: Thank You |
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[
<<MAPP gas. Yellow canister. MUCH hotter than propane. I started using it to sweat copper pipe.... I don't use propane as a torch fuel at all anymore....>>
Me neither--acetylene is the only tool to use in any " I need real heat " situation.
<<Available at any hardware store....>>
They deliver Chuck?
I get the oxy/ acetylene delivered--Like a pizza--really simple, one phone call away. _________________ T.K. |
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shazaam Samba Member
Joined: March 17, 2004 Posts: 2
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Posted: Wed Jun 18, 2014 9:51 am Post subject: |
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Coolant found it's way under distributor cap?
You said coolant got everywhere so just a thought. My van is very sensitive to any moisture around the cap and acts just like you describe when there is some. |
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Terry Kay Banned
Joined: June 22, 2003 Posts: 13331
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Posted: Wed Jun 18, 2014 10:05 am Post subject: |
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Un-sensitize with some LPS-1 or WD -40.
Not a difficult job either. _________________ T.K. |
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MarkWard Samba Member
Joined: February 09, 2005 Posts: 17014 Location: Retired South Florida
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Posted: Wed Jun 18, 2014 11:54 am Post subject: |
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So I understand, it was running fine until you changed the fuel lines? Is it possible some contamination entered the fuel system? Did a piece of rubber hose get fileted of pushing it over a barb? Is it possible you mixed up the supply and return somehow or from one side to the other? Did you drive it after the fuel hose replacement, but prior to the coolant flush? If so did it drive ok? If not, I'd be inclined to recheck my work assuming it was running fine before you did the work. Also there is such a thing as coincidence, but recheck your work. _________________ ☮️ |
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msinabottle Samba Member
Joined: September 20, 2005 Posts: 3492 Location: Denver Area, Colorado
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Posted: Wed Jun 18, 2014 5:12 pm Post subject: A Day No Vans Would Die... Winston Improves |
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Today was... frantic. But there is improvement, if not a cure.
With the wire cut and much wrenching, however in vain, on the oxygen sensor, and a new one bought, the old one HAD to go, and, with suffering and travail, it went. NAPA listed a 7/8 Oxygen Sensor wrench at the local store, it was there, but neither they nor anyone else had nickel anti-seize, some of which will have to be bought after this latest, hellish reminder of why. At least I didn't have to hacksaw off the top of the old sensor, but I found to my horror I don't have a 3/8 drive breaker bar. To be rectified...
I knew I'd have to use propane, because I HAVE propane, and a day of desperation was not a day to acquire and learn how to use complicated, dangerous equipment. I sprayed some more PB Blaster, and dripped down that 50/50 ATF/Acetone mix that's supposed to excel it, and then came the heat... for quite a long time.
I also paused to drip candle wax into the gap, and gunk did flow out from around the sensor, probably the useless stock anti-seize. When the sensor started to glow, I paused and tried the wrench... Too rounded and using a half-inch drive breaker and adapter was awkward. I put in more penetrant and reapplied the heat. Then came a very, very large monkey wrench... Which at first couldn't move it... More wax and penetrant... More heat... Nut itself cherry red... the big wrench... and for the first time in my life a monkey wrench worked for me.
Well, the sensor came out BLACK, I'll have a picture when I've the time to take one. It did not look good. The new one went in and I got my money out of the oxygen sensor wrench in putting on the new one and torquing it down to 40 ft/lbs. Tested the wire to the coaxial cable, crimped, dielectric grease and the little butane torch got the last laugh when I used it to clench down the heat shrink.
That took 'til about 2. Then I pulled the distributor cap, which did not have any liquid under it, but which did look... ugly, on top and particularly when I looked at the black pitted bands across the interior plugs. The Haynes (easier to use while working) said to replace, Nick, the previous owner had left me two--a huge Bosch covered with a black plastic shield and a generic 'Made in the USA' black plastic job that didn't look too much like the old one. I couldn't get the Bosch unit to fit into the grounded metal shield around the old one and on Winston's distributor, but I stored it and will order some OEM Bosch standard models for later. I think the extra black plastic on the new cap is its EMF shield.
I cleaned the plastic dust shield and wiped around the interior of the distributor, which didn't look too bad, I spritzed WD-40 and contact cleaner around everything but the oiled felt center. The rotor had some carbon on it, but it looked pretty good, I cleaned off the carbon and reinstalled it after finding out the rotor in with the new cap was the later 'large hole' variety and wouldn't fit on Winston. I also tested the vacuum advance on the distributor, it responded when I sucked on the line, and before shutting everything down for the day today I spritzed starting fluid next to every vacuum line junction and provoked no response.
He's still not there, but at least his idle was more stable, I got him, slowly, up to 55 and he did try and respond. I didn't kill him, he fell below 1K on the tach a few times but held his idle. I tried squeezing the interior vacuum lines and got no response, I felt no vibration on the idle stabilizer motor, possibly significant. At least I've cleaned out all the low-hanging fruit for when Blazer looks at him. No weird smell from the cat, just me looking weird sniffing at it when I put in 7.76 gallons of new summer-blend top tier fuel. He barely got 17 MPG, VERY low for him.
Tomorrow, the Brothers Blazer, who have offered to help me in my desperation--I shall report their findings. To everyone who offered advice and/or encouragement, my profound thanks, I felt much less wretched after reading it. Just to note--I don't think ANYTHING got into his fuel system, I was insanely careful. I'm pretty sure the problem is some out-of-whack component that hopefully the Brothers Blazer or their personnel can locate and rectify quickly. If it proves to be the cat, I will have them remove it and start looking very hard in the direction of the Brothers Labate.
And I am very tired, but I do feel better. Thank you all, very much.
Best! _________________ 'Winston,' '84 1.9 WBX Westy
Vanagon Poet Laureate: "I have suffered in
many ways, but never, never, never in silence." |
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Terry Kay Banned
Joined: June 22, 2003 Posts: 13331
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Posted: Wed Jun 18, 2014 6:16 pm Post subject: |
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All of that, and not much success ---
Bummer.
I want to say that a tool is only as dangerous as the operator in regards to the oxygen/ acetylene.
Think about this;
You can use it to weld, cut, solder, braze, shrink metal, expand metal, shape metal ,apply lead, & make removing frozen fasteners real simple.
I burnt myself torch welding, stick welding, mig, & tig welding plenty of times--
It's the nature of the profession.
Just as skinning your knuckles while your wrenching is.
Your really limiting yourself down to not much with a propane linoleum heat gun. _________________ T.K.
Last edited by Terry Kay on Wed Jun 18, 2014 8:29 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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dobryan Samba Member
Joined: March 24, 2006 Posts: 16474 Location: Brookeville, MD
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