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[email protected]
Samba Member
Joined: June 02, 2011
Posts: 1593
Location: Louisville, ky
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 Posted: Wed Jun 18, 2014 2:12 pm Post subject: Ethanol test with a surprise conclusion. |
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I drove the 97 Ford van to Iowa and encountered 'Super Unleaded'. I asked and was told it had ethanol, the much more expensive unleaded had no ethanol. Neither of the two clerks, nor the couple of farmers at the station could tell me a percent but the price was 10% cheaper. I have been wondering what kind of efficiency one would get out of ethanol so I figured I would fill up, run the tank out and get a pretty good reading on the fuel efficiency of this ethanol blend. Here in Kentucky it is difficult to find gas that is not E85 so that is what I run most of the time. I get pretty close to 26 mpg with that stuff so I figured I could do the math and figure out how much bang I get from whatever percent ethanol this super stuff has. The route across Iowa and Illinois was predictably flat, no wind to speak of, I set it on 70 mph cruise control and listened to a book on tape. At 3 am I am down to 3/4 tank in Illinois just before the Indiana border and figure I better fill up. Distance traveled 364.4 miles/18.08 gallons used, 20.15. Ok, a number I can use. I'll just google what percent that was when I get home and know exactly how much omph a gallon of ethanol provides. Odd, with that lousy gas you would think the van would have been running noticably rough. I drive older cars and I listen, I know when injectors are getting dirty or the spark plug wires are leaking juice. I get home, sleep in, and eventually google what percent that crap I bought in Iowa had, 10% ethanol. Huh, that is 5% less ethanol than the crap I buy in Kentucky and was using as my benchmark.
S u r p r i s e C o n c l u s i o n
Gas stations in Illinois are selling 3 quarts and calling it a gallon.
expected fuel consumption 364.4 / 26 = 14.01 and on the flat, no wind conditions, no traffic jams I expected to be a couple of percent better than that.
14.01 / 18.08 = .77489 volume of each gallon I paid for.
Ok mileage watchers, pay attention this summer. Is it just this gas station or is a gallon really only 3 quarts thoughout Illinois. |
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VOLKSWAGNUT
Fastest VW Belt Changer
Joined: October 14, 2007
Posts: 11056
Location: Flippin' a Belt........ .... Off-n-On ... NC USA
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| Posted: Sat Jun 21, 2014 5:36 am Post subject: |
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The fuel consumer is at the fuel supply's mercy... you really never know what you are pumping into your tank..
What may be labeled 10% may really be 15%... and vice-versa.
E10 and E15 is 10-15% alcohol and 90-85% Gasoline.
E85 is 85 % alcohol 15% Gasoline.
In reality the ratios can be anywhere in between..
Using E85 is way less efficient than using pure gasoline (no alcohol) even when used in vehicles designed to accept it..
On the average you will use 1.5 gallons of E85 to 1 gallon of pure fuel.
A gallon of fuel... is a gallon of fuel... just no telling what "fuel" is in there..
All fuel and oil is pumped down the same pipelines... its just a matter of when the valves are turned on and off to separate that fuel. Could be diesel is pumped right behind gasoline.. which is right behind... aviation... and so on.. There is always some "cross over" between fuels...
My father who used to haul all types of fuel... has always advised me stay away from the high volume interstate fueling stations.... especially in states where there is a refinery... Its the fuel supply dumping grounds.... could be anything..
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Last edited by VOLKSWAGNUT on Sun Jun 22, 2014 9:06 am; edited 1 time in total |
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chazz79
Samba Member
Joined: August 15, 2008
Posts: 2268
Location: ohio
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| Posted: Sat Jun 21, 2014 7:47 am Post subject: |
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My entire fleet is flex fuel.
Mpg is 75% when running on e85 across all lines.
Ford Taurus's get 25 on regular gas (all gas is 10% ethanol across all octanes)
Same car can only get @20mph hwy on e85
It's the same no matter what brand we've tried gmc's, dodges, it doesn't matter.
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vwracerdave
Samba Member
Joined: November 11, 2004
Posts: 15309
Location: Deep in the 405
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| Posted: Sun Jun 22, 2014 6:57 am Post subject: |
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So it's actually cheaper to run 100% pure gas. The ethanol is all government politics.
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glutamodo 
The Android
Joined: July 13, 2004
Posts: 26325
Location: Douglas, WY
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| Posted: Sun Jun 22, 2014 7:26 am Post subject: |
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Some people care more about using renewable resources instead of fossil fuels and are fine to live with lower fuel economy. I'm not one of them though.
I don't think Iowa is the only state that had or has an incentive price reduction on gasohol. I'm surprised it's still in place though, now that ethanol-infused fuels have become some commonplace.
Back in the 1990s when I lived in Colorado, and the "oxyfuels" program would kick in for the winter - and all fuels went from straight gas to either ethanol or MTBE blends, I would notice an immediate drop in fuel economy. However I never really noticed a corresponding jump in the Spring when "real" gasoline came back. I also never really noticed a big drop in fuel economy when I would travel through states where Plus was the cheapest fuel and I would buy it. Maybe that was because I was always road-tripping through and that was all highway miles. |
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Bobnotch
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Joined: July 06, 2003
Posts: 22431
Location: Kimball, Mi
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| Posted: Sun Jun 22, 2014 9:06 am Post subject: |
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| glutamodo wrote: |
Some people care more about using renewable resources instead of fossil fuels and are fine to live with lower fuel economy. I'm not one of them though.
I don't think Iowa is the only state that had or has an incentive price reduction on gasohol. I'm surprised it's still in place though, now that ethanol-infused fuels have become some commonplace.
Back in the 1990s when I lived in Colorado, and the "oxyfuels" program would kick in for the winter - and all fuels went from straight gas to either ethanol or MTBE blends, I would notice an immediate drop in fuel economy. However I never really noticed a corresponding jump in the Spring when "real" gasoline came back. I also never really noticed a big drop in fuel economy when I would travel through states where Plus was the cheapest fuel and I would buy it. Maybe that was because I was always road-tripping through and that was all highway miles. |
Here in Michigan, we've had 10% ethanol for over 30 years, and trying to find pure gas is a real chore (my nearest station is over 30 miles away according to the "pure gas web site"). Yes, I noticed a 1 to 3 mpg drop running it, but then over the years, you just kind of get used to it.  Our "winter" fuels seem to have more gas in them than our summer blend does though. I believe it's mostly related to not having high temps and ozone to worry about in the winter months.
Also, todays gas seems to be very poor, versus what we used to get 20 or 30 years ago (back when premium was red in color, not piss yellow). Add in that it really doesn't like to "burn" either. 
Having driven thru Iowa several times over the years, it surprised me that I can buy 91 octane fuel cheaper than I can buy 87 octane "real gas". But it clearly states on the pump that it's 10% ethanol (just like a bunch of other states I've been to over the years).
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drscope
Samba Member
Joined: February 19, 2007
Posts: 15273
Location: Baltimore, Maryland USA
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| Posted: Mon Jun 23, 2014 9:09 am Post subject: |
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In the early days of the automobile, gasoline was purchased at the drug store. As cars became more popular, gasoline stations became the norm.
With all this new technology of electric and hybrids along with flex fuel, you almost have to wonder how long it will be until we are buying gasoline for collector cars from someplace other then the filling station.
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danfromsyr
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Joined: March 01, 2004
Posts: 15144
Location: Syracuse, NY
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| Posted: Mon Jun 23, 2014 10:53 am Post subject: |
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nothing new here politics and economy under a veil of environmentalism with false hope and failed promises.
a little more on US history and alcohol fuels)
http://blog.hemmings.com/index.php/2013/07/10/a-br...-to-today/
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When the price of gas leaps into the stratosphere, we scramble to find alternatives and biofuels become big news. They’re hailed as miracles of modern technology that promise to solve our energy problems – or at least ease the pain. But biofuels are not new. In fact, Henry Ford himself envisioned a future filled with biofuels, Rudolph Diesel (yep, that diesel) wanted his famous engine to run on peanut oil, and had it not been for the Civil War, we’d probably be fueling up with biofuels today. So what happened? Why did we forget about biofuels?
Biofuel Basics
Before we delve into the history of biofuels, let’s review some basics. Biofuels are, on the most basic level, fuels made from organic matter through fermentation or extraction. You can make them from pretty much any plant material. Throw some corn husks in a fermentation tank with some friendly bacteria, and you’ll eventually get alcohol. Squeeze oily plants (like peanuts), and you’ll get something you can burn in a diesel engine. Of course there’s a fair amount of distilling and refining that goes into it, but that’s the general idea.
Moonshine, War and Taxes
Biofuels have been used for more than 300 years. In the 17th century, travelers commonly used alcohol-burning stoves to keep warm. Many farmers had stills to make moonshine and lamp or cooking fuel from crop waste. In the early 1800s, a blend of camphene and alcohol was the prominent fuel for lamps. In fact, more than 100 million gallons of the stuff were sold every year.
Some of the very first internal combustion engines were, in fact, designed to run on alcohol. In 1826, American Samuel Morey ran his prototype engine on alcohol. In 1860, Nikolaus Otto, inventor of the Otto-cycle engine, burned ethyl alcohol in his engines. It seemed that alcohol would be the dominant liquid fuel of the burgeoning Industrial Revolution.
Then the American Civil War broke out. Both the Union and Confederacy struggled to finance the war, and in order to feed, clothe and arm the troops, the Union whipped up a mess of treasury notes. The notes, known as greenbacks, were technically legal tender; essentially cash. And we all know today what happens when you dump a bunch of cash into the market: runaway inflation. To curb runaway inflation, the Union created a system of internal taxation, the biggest and most extensive to date. They called it the Internal Revenue Act of 1862, and it effectively created the IRS, along with a bunch of taxes on luxury and “sin” items, including alcohol.
The Internal Revenue Act achieved its goal – it slowed inflation to a reasonable (during wartime) 80 percent – but it really put a dent in alcohol production. The tax on alcohol was $2 per gallon, compared to just 10 cents per gallon on kerosene. As a result, fossil fuel use flourished, especially in the United States, and filled the void left by the absence of alcohol as fuel.
Game of Fuels
In Europe, however, ethanol and other biofuels were still widely used. Tractors, agricultural equipment, stoves and lamps ran on the stuff. Alcohol engines were studied at the Experimental Mechanical Laboratory of Paris and the Deutsche Landwirtschaftliche Gesellschaft in Berlin in the 1890s.
At the same time, crude oil was practically oozing out of the ground all over the globe, and companies like Standard Oil were sucking it up to make incredibly cheap gasoline and other fuels, dominating the market via monopoly and making men like the Rockefellers obscenely wealthy.
When horseless carriages sputtered and trundled into the scene, there was a choice: gasoline or alcohol. In Europe, cars were made for both fuels, and in the United States most cars ran on gasoline, including Henry Ford’s first buggy. However, multiple efforts – by presidents and businessmen – were made to change that dynamic here in the States.
In 1906, the United States repealed its tax on alcohol. Teddy Roosevelt led a charge to free alcohol fuel production from taxation and government control, mainly to help break up the behemoth Standard Oil. “The Standard Oil Company has, largely by unfair or unlawful methods, crushed out home competition,” he said. “It is highly desirable that an element of competition should be introduced by the passage of some such law as that which has already passed in the House, putting alcohol used in the arts and manufacturers upon the [tax] free list.”
It was Roosevelt’s hope that cheap ethanol fuels would compete with Standard Oil’s fossil fuels, leveling the playing field in the energy market. In the scheme of things, it was just one small jab in a nearly ceaseless attack on monopolies that started with the Sherman Antitrust Act way back in 1890. During his time as president, Roosevelt also convinced Congress to establish the Department of Commerce and Labor to oversee big business and the Bureau of Corporations to find violations of antitrust laws.
FordandCarver_600Ford pursued alcohol as a fuel for different reasons. As a preeminent pragmatist, he saw plant-based alcohol as a prime fuel for American industrialization. He envisioned a sort of symbiotic relationship between farms and factories: Farms would turn crop waste into fuel for factories, and the factories would then use that fuel to make farm equipment. When he built the Model T, he designed it to run on both gasoline and alcohol. He also realized that one day we’d simply run out of easy oil. “All the world is waiting for a substitute for gasoline,” Ford said in 1916. “The day is not far distant when, for every one of those barrels of gasoline, a barrel of alcohol must be substituted.” Shortly thereafter, he joined forces with George Washington Carver to explore biofuels and bioplastics.
Still, gasoline remained cheap – between 18 and 22 cents per gallon. And oil companies had amassed a baffling amount of money and power. Gas stations popped up across the United States, creating an infrastructure for the newly popular automobile to rely on and further cementing fossil fuel’s dominance.
Even then, however, smart minds were predicting the end of the oil boom and even oil shortages. Many were also getting fed up with the fumes and smoke that gasoline engines spewed. In 1917, Alexander Graham Bell famously said: “Alcohol makes a beautiful, clean and efficient fuel… Alcohol can be manufactured from corn stalks, and in fact from almost any vegetable matter capable of fermentation… We need never fear the exhaustion of our present fuel supplies so long as we can produce an annual crop of alcohol to any extent desired.”
When geological surveys in the 1920s reported that the Texas oil fields were, eventually, going to dry up, biofuels became a hot topic. Ford once again promoted his agrarian utopia of farm-grown fuel. “The fuel of the future is going to come from fruit like that sumach out by the road, or from apples, weeds, sawdust – almost anything,” he said in a New York Times article in 1925. “There is fuel in every bit of vegetable matter that can be fermented. There’s enough alcohol in one year’s yield of an acre of potatoes to drive the machinery necessary to cultivate the fields for a hundred years.”
Ford was so excited about biofuels that he backed Kansas-based ethanol company Agrol in the 1930s. The company marketed a 10 percent ethanol blend and opened more than 2,000 stations across the Midwest. The plant’s operators, however, complained about threats and even sabotage from the oil industry. Whether this is true is still up for debate, but the plant closed down in 1938 due to, once again, the cheap price of gasoline.
syntheticrubber_700Large-scale ethanol production kicked back in during World War II, when it was used to make “Buna-S” synthetic rubber. After the war, production fell off. Biofuels fell almost completely out of favor. Cheap gas reigned supreme.
Embargoes, Air Quality and Food
After that, biofuels didn’t get much press until the Arab Oil Embargo of 1973, which sent everyone scrambling for alternatives. Jimmy Carter created federal incentives for the U.S. ethanol industry and 100 new corn alcohol plants were built in the mid-1980s. In 1984 a total of 163 ethanol plants in the United States produced more than 595 million gallons of the stuff. Almost all of it was mixed with gasoline as an octane booster.
Then in the late 1980s, the price of oil dropped to an insanely low $12 per gallon barrel, leading the ethanol industry to nearly go bankrupt. If it weren’t for several clean air and environmental protection acts in the 1990s, ethanol production may have stopped altogether. Instead, oil companies began to use it as an octane booster, and by the late 1990s, the United States was producing about four million gallons of ethanol a year.
Today biofuels are once again in the news. Oil prices are rising and crude oil is increasingly more difficult to get. Even conventional oil companies are buying stock in ethanol, and genius software magnate Bill Gates just bought a quarter of Pacific Ethanol, Inc. Scientists are engineering algae that can make biodiesel out of thin (carbon dioxide-rich) air. It seems like Ford’s agrarian-industrial utopia may just become a reality.
But biofuels suffer from one fatal flaw: Most require farmland. As the world’s population soars past 7 billion people, farmland becomes more and more valuable – for food. And that fact has not gone unnoticed. In 2007, a group within the United Nations called for a five-year moratorium on food-based biofuels, including ethanol, calling them “a crime against humanity.”
In addition, biofuels aren’t as energy dense as fossil fuels. A gallon of ethanol, a biofuel usually made from corn or cane sugar, contains only 70 percent of the energy that’s in a gallon of gasoline. But unlike fossil fuels, biofuels don’t take millions of years to make.
Still, biofuels will undoubtedly have a role to play in the emerging new energy economy. Many see them as a way to reduce U.S. dependence on foreign oil and to create jobs, rationales behind the EPA’s Renewable Fuel Standard and recent rulings allowing the use of E10 and E15 ethanol-blended fuels nationwide. And one can be sure that every time gas prices spike or roll past another previously unthinkable price point, discussion of increased biofuel use will follow.
Dustin Driver has been a professional journalist and marketing writer for more than a decade. He has written for the Oakland Tribune, Apple, RideLust and many print and online magazines. He’s obsessed with all forms of transportation, from cars to motorcycles to trains to planes. More of his work can be found at DustinDriver.com
- See more at: http://blog.hemmings.com/index.php/2013/07/10/a-br...5WeGZ.dpuf |
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Zundfolge1432
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Joined: June 13, 2004
Posts: 12468
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| Posted: Sun Jun 29, 2014 5:33 pm Post subject: |
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After using ethanol in my 86 toyota fuel lines started leaking although oddly enough the owners manual mentioned it was ok to use ethanol fuels. Looking back the first price spikes happened around 2005 and that's the year I got a little more serious about fuel economy and bought two new four cylinder Toyotas.
We can get 100% gasoline here for 30 cents more a gallon and in talking to the small engine repair shops around here a rash of failures and related fuel system problems can be traced back to ethanol blend fuels. Personally this shit fuel ruined the carburetor on my Stihl chain saw and it caused the air cooled engines on my lawn mowers to run erratic, hot and caused stalling. The newer cars seem to handle this fuel ok but its the small engines suffer.
My daily driver now is a 2007 prius with 225,000 miles its a former rental car and has been run to death but refuses to die we still get 45 miles per gallon. Oh and it has the original battery. The lie about batteries is another oil company hit piece. Ck YouTube and eBay and see how cheap and easy it is to buy and change them yourself. Also ck the forums and see that these cars routinely run 300,000 to 400,000 miles. Modern day VWs ?
Tell the oil companies to kiss off, and this is coming from a former roustabout and roughneck, yes I worked the oil rigs in the Gulf of Mexico as a young man |
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vanagonjr
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Joined: October 07, 2010
Posts: 3431
Location: Dartmouth, Mass.
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| Posted: Sun Jul 06, 2014 2:21 pm Post subject: |
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Well it makes sense that an you will get poorer gas mileage with an ethanol blend fuel. The Stoichiometric Air-Fuel Ratio of gasoline 14.7 :1, while it is 9 with ethanol, as I learned during my engineering studies. Well before that, my neighbor had a drag car, and I learned that you had to re-jet the carburetor to run alcohol, because you needed to roughly run twice as much fuel. So very roughly, you will get 5% less mpg with a 10% blend.
In Mass, since MBTE went away all our gas is 10% ethanol, there is no "real gas" available anywhere. To be honest, unless it was on my commute, I can't see going out of the way for it, but I really would like pure gas for my small motors - chainsaws, lawn mowers, etc.
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ToolBox
Samba Member
Joined: January 27, 2004
Posts: 3439
Location: Detroit, where they don't jack parts off my ride in the parking lot of the 7-11
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| Posted: Mon Jul 07, 2014 10:50 am Post subject: |
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| vanagonjr wrote: |
In Mass, since MBTE went away all our gas is 10% ethanol, there is no "real gas" available anywhere. To be honest, unless it was on my commute, I can't see going out of the way for it, but I really would like pure gas for my small motors - chainsaws, lawn mowers, etc. |
I go to the local airport and fill my 5 gallon can with AvGas for the small engine tools. |
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shortride
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Joined: October 10, 2010
Posts: 1323
Location: Oklahoma
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