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djway3474
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Joined: August 19, 2011
Posts: 2580
Location: The Real NDK So Cal
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 Posted: Mon Jun 29, 2015 12:47 am Post subject: |
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| It may be helpful to tac things together and not full welds until you have the door in there and test fit as much as possible. If you need to move things around then there is not as much to cut. |
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kgj
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Joined: February 25, 2013
Posts: 418
Location: Uk, Cornwall
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| Posted: Mon Jun 29, 2015 3:05 pm Post subject: |
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Good progress.
Question. Is the heater pipe just pushed into to new heater channel?
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1958 coupe |
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J1
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Joined: February 10, 2014
Posts: 698
Location: SoCal
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| Posted: Mon Jun 29, 2015 4:27 pm Post subject: |
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| kgj wrote: |
| Question. Is the heater pipe just pushed into to new heater channel? |
If you're asking about installing the Y tube and the channel together, I'd suggest first making sure the channel sits well and ALL the bolt holes line up so that you have to put the Y tube and channel together just once (don't ask how many times I had to do it).
I first installed the Y tube (unwelded). This was just as difficult for me as removing it so I cut a bit off the plastic tube coming from the rear that the Y tube goes into (yes, I tend to cut things instead of bullying them on/off).
Then I maneuvered the channel so that the Y tube fits into the inlet on the channel. The front of the channel was up and you just have to find the right angles as you work it into place.
I think there's a little variation how the Y tube sits, as well as how it fits into the inlet, so that could be a source of the channel not lining up well. I bent the perimeter of the channel inlet in order to provide a little extra space for the Y tube.
Since the Y tube seems structurally insignificant, I'm leaving it unwelded until I have all the major pieces in place.
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1971 Ghia coupe. Assume I know nothing and you'll be pretty darn close to the truth. |
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J1
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Joined: February 10, 2014
Posts: 698
Location: SoCal
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| Posted: Wed Jul 01, 2015 2:10 pm Post subject: |
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Way eearlier in this thread, someone said to be careful of the nuts inside the channel because they can come loose. I was reminded of this by kiwighia68's "Saving Emiko" post today...
| kiwighia68 wrote: |
| A problem (potentially, at least) with the replacement integrated rockers, elbow piece and heater channels I got from Cip1 is that some of the nuts came away when we test fitted the body on the pan in order to line up the door gaps. So we had to replace them with rivet-nuts. |
I think I lucked out big time because all the nuts on my channel held. If it were to have come loose, I don't think I'd be as calm as our kiwi friend. Seems like it could turn into a big headache to get the bolt back out so I just wanted to suggest testing if the nuts will hold while the channel is OFF the car (which I did not do), not when it's already on the pan.
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1971 Ghia coupe. Assume I know nothing and you'll be pretty darn close to the truth. |
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J1
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Joined: February 10, 2014
Posts: 698
Location: SoCal
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| Posted: Thu Jul 02, 2015 2:52 pm Post subject: |
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My homemade dogleg is all welded in. Not perfect, but I'm happy. It will be hidden behind kick panel speakers anyway. Will leave it like this until I am ready to MS and paint other parts as well.
I THINK my next step will be to remove the brace, install the door, and weld the channel/rocker at the B pillar with proper door gap. And hope nothing shifts during the process.
The alternative is to first weld the channel at the rear wheel well to provide more structure before removing the brace, but that may limit door gap adjustability.
I'm leaning towards the first option because it seems to have worked fine for others, but if I'm missing something here, please let me know before I unbolt that brace!
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1971 Ghia coupe. Assume I know nothing and you'll be pretty darn close to the truth. |
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J1
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Joined: February 10, 2014
Posts: 698
Location: SoCal
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| Posted: Tue Jul 07, 2015 1:18 pm Post subject: |
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Door is back on with the channel welded only at the A pillar. Rocker is tacked on and this is about the best I can get the door gap after using both finesse and muscle. Even getting to this would require messing with the metal at the B pillar...
I remembered when I was cutting the rear quarter off the rear wheel well, it kinda popped off meaning the rear quarter was not in a resting state. Previous body work was done (there is some filler there) so I'm blaming my fit issues on that because I couldn't have possibly done anything wrong 
I may try to adjust the rocker but then again it's shaped in a way to resist bends so I could easily make things worse. Door closes even with the sill plate so this is not a deal breaker, but the perfectionist in me is annoyed right now especially with others here seeming to have an easy time with it.
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1971 Ghia coupe. Assume I know nothing and you'll be pretty darn close to the truth. |
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Mellow Yellow 74
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Joined: October 14, 2014
Posts: 1615
Location: Sydney, Australia
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| Posted: Tue Jul 07, 2015 1:57 pm Post subject: |
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| J1 wrote: |
| I may try to adjust the rocker but then again it's shaped in a way to resist bends so I could easily make things worse. Door closes even with the sill plate so this is not a deal breaker, but the perfectionist in me is annoyed right now especially with others here seeming to have an easy time with it. |
On the youtube videos, my friend Pete puts a block of wood on top of the rocker and belts it down with a hammer. If you do this on the edge where it is sticking up it would probably do the trick.
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1962 Karmann Ghia
1974 Deluxe Microbus
1985 Caravelle (Vanagon) |
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c21darrel
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Joined: January 22, 2009
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Location: San Dimas
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J1
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Joined: February 10, 2014
Posts: 698
Location: SoCal
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| Posted: Wed Jul 08, 2015 1:53 pm Post subject: |
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Thanks for the ideas. The message I'm getting from them is that 1) Pete may have some good ideas and 2) it's ok to do a little surgery on the rocker. So...
In this video (and I know he's a bit controversial) he has cut the rocker in half, put on the front half and is now putting on the rear half...
Link
And for those who do not enjoy flowery language, here's a snapshot of him caught in the act...
I think that could actually work well for me. This photo is looking down the B pillar and my fit issue is that when the rocker is lined up correctly with the B pillar (yellow line)...
...the door gap looks like this...
So the rocker can be aligned with the door or it can be aligned with the B pillar, but not both! This is why cutting the rocker (along the red lines) may be the ticket. I'll play with the front half to adjust door gap. Then the rear half to align with the B pillar. And then when those 2 parts are in place, weld them back together for the structural support.
As always, input appreciated. Fyi, I interpret silence as agreement (though I realize it's more likely because you don't want to be a part of this train wreck)
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1971 Ghia coupe. Assume I know nothing and you'll be pretty darn close to the truth. |
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paul_round
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Joined: October 17, 2014
Posts: 502
Location: UK
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| Posted: Wed Jul 08, 2015 4:34 pm Post subject: |
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Sitting here, quietly absorbing everything you've done. Building up the courage to do the same.
Kudos to you! |
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J1
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Joined: February 10, 2014
Posts: 698
Location: SoCal
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| Posted: Thu Jul 09, 2015 12:10 pm Post subject: |
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Thank you paul_round for the reply. Though I see the view counts ticking upward, it's always helpful to know there are real people following along!
Well, before committing myself to cutting up the rocker in order to get better door gap, I tried a few other things.
1. BFH (sort of) and bending the rocker into various positions. Didn't help.
2. Jacking up by the A pillar as well as at the rear jack point. Didn't help.
3. Shimming method that I saw on Youtube by Greg's Garage and that kiwighia68 happened to post just today. No change...
http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?p=7742939#7742939
So I think the rocker is getting cut. It doesn't feel right, but after seeing/reading about others who had to bang and cut their way to the end (and given my bumpers and bumper brackets have evidence of use), I guess this is par for the course.
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1971 Ghia coupe. Assume I know nothing and you'll be pretty darn close to the truth. |
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c21darrel
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Joined: January 22, 2009
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Location: San Dimas
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| Posted: Thu Jul 09, 2015 1:18 pm Post subject: |
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| Quote: |
| So I think the rocker is getting cut. It doesn't feel right, but after seeing/reading about others who had to bang and cut their way to the end (and given my bumpers and bumper brackets have evidence of use), I guess this is par for the course. |
I spend some time in the Bus forum reading plenty of threads of guys doing rust repair. Most prefer the Gerson, Funky Green panels. They are considered one of the best replacement panels. Very often the best panels dont fit exactly right and they need trimming, cutting, or a BFH to get correct fit. I think you are right that after 40,50,60 years our cars and buses have evidence of non-stock adjustments from PO's, ourselves, other cars, and the elements.
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GhiaBuild
http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=481184
1967 DC build
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Stop dead photo links! Post your photos to The Samba Gallery! |
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CiderGuy
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Joined: December 23, 2013
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Location: Bucks County, Pa
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J1
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Joined: February 10, 2014
Posts: 698
Location: SoCal
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| Posted: Fri Jul 10, 2015 1:28 pm Post subject: |
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Gap issue solved. Didn't have to cut the rocker in half after all. Turns out this repop rocker has a couple issues...
1. The section surrounding the jack point is not well formed. It came all wavy on top and it also was hitting the jack point, contributing to my door gap issue. So I made the opening bigger...
Now no interference. It gets covered up with the rear fender panel so no big deal how it looks...
2. The 2nd issue is that the curvature of the repop rocker is much less than that of the original. Here's a piece of metal shaped to fit the curve of my original rocker (passenger side)...
And here's that same piece of metal next to the repop. The effect of this is that the bottom lip of the rocker extends below the bottom lip of the channel and more importantly, it limits adjustability of the door gap (at least on my car)...
This issue is mentioned in multiple threads on TS with just as many solutions. Pete's solution on https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sRge1IG85GU was to heat it and jack it up to create more curvature (vid is kinda entertaining with his choice comments about this aftermarket product)...
I decided against this pyromania and left the curvature as-is and then used my wrench, hammer and elbow grease to bend the lip further up. Here's the rocker now with acceptable door gap AND aligned with the B pillar (I'll take care of the B pillar gap later). I will probably slice off the lower 1cm of the lip all the way across and punch some new holes that will match up with the channel. And notice on the right of this photo that the drain hole is now on the lip so I'll be drilling new drain holes too...
Next post will hopefully be the rocker welded in. And this part was supposed to be easy  So if you are anal about door gaps and things lining up, my bet is you'll have to mess with the rocker a little or maybe even a lot.
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J1
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Joined: February 10, 2014
Posts: 698
Location: SoCal
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| Posted: Fri Jul 10, 2015 11:26 pm Post subject: |
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A milestone. Rocker is in. As I mentioned, I sliced off 1cm off the rocker's bottom lip (since it extends below the channel lip), punched new holes, and welded the rocker into place. It was fun finally getting in some welding time. Just going down the line getting into a groove doing plug welds.
So here it is. Permanently in. If you're from NFC North territory (American football), ignore the Chicago Bears stick-on...
A better look at the bottom gap...
And the gap at the B pillar. I know, not pretty but there is indeed space there. I can work on this more, but this is another part that is confounding me. The pillar doesn't move. At the very least, the replacement rear fender panel may give me an opportunity to make this look a little better...
A couple other thoughts. I need to refill my 80cf tank now. I used it up practicing as well as stitch welding with a bunch of tacks which I understand wastes a lot of gas. I also had a leak at the regulator but that's another story. Point being, if you're new to welding like me, 1 tank might not do it for this project.
Also, punch holes in the rocker AFTER you are done with the fit-up. And place the holes where there will be metal behind it since the channel is irregularly shaped. In other words, measure twice, cut once... which I didn't do.
Anyway, onto the next step. Not sure what that will be, but after staring at this rocker and wrestling with it all week, I'm just gonna enjoy this milestone for a moment.
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1971 Ghia coupe. Assume I know nothing and you'll be pretty darn close to the truth.
Last edited by J1 on Sat Jul 11, 2015 12:00 am; edited 2 times in total |
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djway3474
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Joined: August 19, 2011
Posts: 2580
Location: The Real NDK So Cal
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| Posted: Fri Jul 10, 2015 11:59 pm Post subject: |
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| My understanding is that you can change that gap at the top of the door by changing the thickness of the rubber mount at the rear on the shock tower. Saving Emiko just did a quick bit about that |
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Mellow Yellow 74
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Joined: October 14, 2014
Posts: 1615
Location: Sydney, Australia
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| Posted: Sat Jul 11, 2015 12:25 am Post subject: |
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| djway3474 wrote: |
| My understanding is that you can change that gap at the top of the door by changing the thickness of the rubber mount at the rear on the shock tower. Saving Emiko just did a quick bit about that |
Correct but you actually use steel shims rather than changing the thickness of the rubber - there is a diagram in Bentley showing the dimensions of the shims you need. Based on the photo above, 1-2 shims should improve the door gap by reducing it at the top.
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1962 Karmann Ghia
1974 Deluxe Microbus
1985 Caravelle (Vanagon) |
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cool karmann collected
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Joined: November 23, 2008
Posts: 631
Location: Oxford, U.K.
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| Posted: Sun Jul 12, 2015 12:55 pm Post subject: |
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| J1 wrote: |
And the gap at the B pillar. I know, not pretty but there is indeed space there. I can work on this more, but this is another part that is confounding me. The pillar doesn't move. |
Not necessarily! If you look at the first few pix of my second heater channel replacement you'll see I added an extra piece to the door support jig that braces the lower part of the B pillar, this was because I found exactly the issue you are encountering right now when I did the first side. I assume there are a lot stresses concentrated in that area which cause the pillar to move forward once the lower weld restraint is released
These are the small details that get forgotten over time.
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J1
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Joined: February 10, 2014
Posts: 698
Location: SoCal
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| Posted: Fri Jul 17, 2015 4:04 pm Post subject: |
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I vote for both of these as the best door brace ideas. Look and read carefully!
First one is from cool karmann collected and I love the guide for the height of the channel and the spur to the bottom of the B pillar. I think both features could've saved me a lot of time...
This second brace is from kgj and I love the simplicity (it's just an angle iron screwed on) and the fact that the brace and the door can be on at the same time. More details in his thread http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?p=7752772#7752772 ...
What these have in common is that they support the bottom of the B pillar and I believe that part is the most susceptible to shifting. What holds it (and the surrounding area) in place is of course where it's welded to the channel, but also the Y tube welds under the rear seat. Since all these weld points are gone when you replace the channel, plus the lower rear fender may be detached from the rear wheel well, the lower B pillar is free to skate around.
Anyway, thank you guys for sharing. I just wish I had seen them before I cut up the car. As for me, this is where my door gap is at. Not terrible, and very few people will probably ever notice, but it's also not going to win me any car shows
Well, things could be worse, much worse, so I am ready to move on. Though there is plenty of details left, I feel like I am on the downhill side and this weekend should be pretty productive. I am starting to get a flicker of that light at the end of the tunnel!
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c21darrel
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Location: San Dimas
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In lieu of a BFH...maybe use your cutoff wheel not the really thin one, the 1/8 in one so you can remove some metal. Slice horizontally forward of the seam just far enough to make a nice transition back at the seam area. Press down and weld it back. That may clean it up and not too much extra work. You are doing really well! 
