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ScottDoonan
Samba Member
Joined: August 04, 2005
Posts: 546
Location: Northern California
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 Posted: Fri Nov 21, 2014 2:43 pm Post subject: |
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It will, but we are here to help.
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If you take time to do it, do it right and don't be so damn cheap.....🤙🏻
1959 Karmann Ghia Cabriolet (current restoration)
1965 Porsche 356 SC coupe
1967 Volkswagen Convertible Beetle
1969 Porsche 911E Targa 3.2 twin plug
2006 Porsche 987 Rüf 3400K Prototype #2 of 2 |
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J1
Samba Member
Joined: February 10, 2014
Posts: 698
Location: SoCal
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| Posted: Mon Nov 24, 2014 3:55 pm Post subject: |
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| c21darrel wrote: |
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| I hope this does not become one of those never-ending threads Smile |
I think you mean "never starting threads"  |
 I suppose I can't argue with that... I've spent more time writing than actually doing any work... lots of words, not so much action. On the flip side though, another purpose of this thread was to keep me accountable... and knowing this is out there will definitely keep me from getting lazy for too long.
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1971 Ghia coupe. Assume I know nothing and you'll be pretty darn close to the truth. |
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cool karmann collected
Samba Member
Joined: November 23, 2008
Posts: 631
Location: Oxford, U.K.
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| Posted: Tue Nov 25, 2014 3:25 pm Post subject: |
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| NOVA Airhead wrote: |
It seems to me the cheap part of this job are the parts cost. If you are an average Joe I think you are making the task quite a bit harder going the fabricated route.
I also wonder over time if this is penny wise and dollar foolish. While I am sure you are not going into this for the money it would be nice if 20 years down the road you could recover some money on your car. I don't know if what you are planning with the tube steel is detectable but I could see people doing this and the value of their car is diminished down the road. The real cost here is the labor.
I would save more money and use the repro parts.
As for body on or off. Body on will help insure your gaps are right. It becomes much more difficult with the body off. Good Luck! |
This reply from Nova Airhead neatly sums up my feelings to a tee.
I didn't even consider fabricating an approximation of the channels from tube, sheet or whatever as I knew from beetle experience that even with the repro parts in front of me there was literally piles of work in removal of the old rusty metal and preparation of the remaining bodywork without getting into fabricating what is in fact quite a complex construction, it's way beyond just a rectangular tube with some holes in.
Don't get me wrong, I don't / didn't have bags of cash, so I understand why people balk at the headline price of repro channels. Let me tell you that in reality these are a bargain when you factor in the man-hours it would require to produce something from scratch. It's money well spent to put the extra hours in at work to raise the funds to buy what you need.
I applaud that you want to get in there and do the work yourself, no arguments there, everyone's got to start somewhere. As a side note, I think you are dead on the money when you say you might delay it for a while because you'd rather put some miles on it (read: enjoy) before laying it up for an indeterminate period of time, it's important to build up a 'Karma-bank' (see what I did there?  ) of enjoyable driving so that when you're knee-deep in rust and it's really getting you down, you've got some good memories to pull you through, diving into a new project car can be tough and can lead to resentment of all the cash and time it's gobbling up.
Did I mention time? I should add some context to the thread I created back when I did the work on my car. At that time I was living in a rented place and didn't have so many time commitments (read: house maintenance) that now seem to fill my days. I had a decent work space that I could spread out in that was away from my home- so no visitors dropping by to 'help out'. Even so, it took me almost a year of Saturdays just to do one side, I know I'm more of a tortoise than a Hare, but I wasn't dragging my feet either.
So, in essence, go for it, but don't make life any harder than it needs to be already. There is another option that I didn't see mentioned and that's to cut some good metal from a donor bodyshell, This would almost certainly be the quickest, cheapest and ultimately most accurate method in the long run.
Peace
Ant |
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Abscate
Samba Member
Joined: October 05, 2014
Posts: 22668
Location: NYC/Upstate/ROW
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| Posted: Tue Nov 25, 2014 7:44 pm Post subject: |
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| J1 wrote: |
Quick update. I've been driving my ghia around, enjoying it before it goes under the knife. Now that it's thanksgiving and the signs of winter are here, I've been thinking about this experiment again.
HOWEVER, after realizing that I live in SoCal where winters (not summers) may be a better time to be enjoying an air-conditioner-less, vinyl-upholstered vehicle, I'm on the fence about starting this project. I've had this car less than a year and I think I deserve a couple more seasons before taking her off the street for who-knows-how-long.
Another factor is that I was supposed to be practicing on my stick welder this whole time, but I've been too busy doing things that require much less effort. My nearly-nonexistent welding skills is probably now fully nonexistent.
I hope this does not become one of those never-ending threads Maybe I'll just pass this problem on to my 9yo son. Anyway, hope everyone finds something to be thankful for this season! |
I'm watching this thread as I am a first time welder contemplating two major body off projects next summer. No pressure though.
Winter in SoCal? Is that when you turn the AC up to 72F?
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J1
Samba Member
Joined: February 10, 2014
Posts: 698
Location: SoCal
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| Posted: Wed Nov 26, 2014 12:42 am Post subject: |
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cool karmann collected, thx for your thoughts. They carry a lot of weight given your successful heater channel project and the fact you did it body-on. I totally get the "penny-wise pound-foolish" potential and I'm not as certain on going the tube route as it may seem. Maybe some more input would help...
To those who have tried the tube approach (successful or not) or intimately know that part of the car, can you comment on specific challenges compared to using a repro? I'm leaning towards the tube only because I have yet to hear warnings from those who have done this. Maybe because they are experienced fabricators/welders, have access to the right tools, and their threshold for pain is a lot higher than mere mortals?
Anyone have experience in transplanting heater channels from a donor? The thought crossed my mind, but it seemed it could be tricky or impossible to cut it out just right, plus the time to find one and the luck to find someone who'll let you cut it out.
To those who are following this thread in order to replace their own channels, are you more interested in seeing the tube approach, repro, or no preference? I won't make my decision based on this peanut gallery, but it'd be interesting to hear!
| cool karmann collected wrote: |
| it's important to build up a 'Karma-bank'... of enjoyable driving so that when you're knee-deep in rust and it's really getting you down, you've got some good memories to pull you through |
Thx for that confirmation. That's a great way to put it. I need some more deposits in my Karma-bank!
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1971 Ghia coupe. Assume I know nothing and you'll be pretty darn close to the truth. |
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c21darrel
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Joined: January 22, 2009
Posts: 8211
Location: San Dimas
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J1
Samba Member
Joined: February 10, 2014
Posts: 698
Location: SoCal
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| Posted: Thu Dec 18, 2014 11:39 pm Post subject: |
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Been thinking more about how much hassle the tube option might be. "Analyzed" some photos courtesy of user "cool karmann collected"...
Am I right that the rear of the tube simply ends and butts up to the rear wheel well, so it should not be difficult to fit a tube compared to a repro part?
But it seems fitting the front of the tube to the dogleg may require some finesse and luck...
...whereas a repro part transitions nicely pretty much regardless of where you cut the old channel/dogleg...
I believe these are the potential problem areas when using a tube, but it still seems relatively minimal. I know there will be all these little details that will come to play, but it seems reasonable. I'm guessing "fabricating" the other sections like the heater vent, Y tube, pan bolts, and the actual rocker should be easier than the above.
Are there other problem areas for the channel itself (not the surrounding fender, wells, etc)? I know it depends on the condition, so this is just generally speaking.
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1971 Ghia coupe. Assume I know nothing and you'll be pretty darn close to the truth. |
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NOVA Airhead
Samba Member
Joined: July 20, 2005
Posts: 5221
Location: Richmond, VA
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| Posted: Fri Dec 19, 2014 6:36 am Post subject: |
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| J1 wrote: |
| c21darrel wrote: |
| Quote: |
| I hope this does not become one of those never-ending threads Smile |
I think you mean "never starting threads" |
I suppose I can't argue with that... I've spent more time writing than actually doing any work... lots of words, not so much action. On the flip side though, another purpose of this thread was to keep me accountable... and knowing this is out there will definitely keep me from getting lazy for too long. |
I think it was George S. Patton that said an imperfect plan violently executed today is better than a perfect plan executed next week...or something like that.
It seem like you are getting near the point of the former.
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Ghia Owner Emeritus |
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kman
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Joined: November 04, 2005
Posts: 739
Location: Michigan
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| Posted: Fri Dec 19, 2014 6:59 am Post subject: |
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As someone who made his own heater channels, I really think you'd be much better off saving for the actual repro parts. All the flanges and other connections are what give the body structure. You also cannot forget water drainage, carpet fit, where the main wiring harness will run, heat etc.
You will save yourself a lot of trouble. As a beginner its hard enough as it is. No need to reinvent the wheel.
Some will disagree with me, that's fine. I'm telling you straight up what I think. |
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J1
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Joined: February 10, 2014
Posts: 698
Location: SoCal
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| Posted: Thu Feb 26, 2015 11:27 am Post subject: |
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Still no actual progress, but it's because I'm trying to maximize hours of enjoying her on the road before making the cut of no return. I have been thinking about this though and the needle has started to point more towards using a repro channel than fabricating from a tube. Mainly because...
| kman wrote: |
| As someone who made his own heater channels, I really think you'd be much better off saving for the actual repro parts. All the flanges and other connections are what give the body structure. |
I don't want to mess with "structure". I noticed in this pic that the front of a repro channel has an "end plate" that slides in between the dogleg and whatever this outer section is called. And this would not exist with a tube...
So here are the weld points between the channel and body that provide structure...
A: Channel butts up to A pillar and slides into dogleg.
B: B pillar.
C: Channel butts up to rear wheel well.
D: And the repro channel has this end plate that gets welded to the body whereas a tube would only have A, B and C for structure.
Another structural issue with the tube is that a body-on replacement would not allow me to access the bottom of the tube where it butts up to the A pillar. In other words, the structure is dependent on a butt joint weld of only 3 sides of a 4-sided tube.
This decision matrix may also help summarize. Just my personal assessment, don't know how true this all would be. My original plan was to be in quadrant 4 but I'm now leaning towards quadrant 2...
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1971 Ghia coupe. Assume I know nothing and you'll be pretty darn close to the truth. |
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Mellow Yellow 74
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Joined: October 14, 2014
Posts: 1615
Location: Sydney, Australia
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| Posted: Thu Feb 26, 2015 12:27 pm Post subject: |
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| J1 wrote: |
This decision matrix may also help summarize. Just my personal assessment, don't know how true this all would be. My original plan was to be in quadrant 4 but I'm now leaning towards quadrant 2...
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I have an engineering background and can tend to over analyse things sometimes. Just out of interest, what is your daytime job?
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1962 Karmann Ghia
1974 Deluxe Microbus
1985 Caravelle (Vanagon) |
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Brassneck
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Joined: November 17, 2012
Posts: 420
Location: Seattle
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| Posted: Thu Feb 26, 2015 2:01 pm Post subject: |
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I think Cost ($) and Effort (Skill/Time really) are relative. Whereas Structure is a constant that can probably be measured fairly directly and consistently...thus, that's the one I would start with... taking you out of box 4...and arguably 3.
I'm all for fabrication and keeping costs low...but may not be worth it long term. |
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J1
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Joined: February 10, 2014
Posts: 698
Location: SoCal
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| Posted: Thu Feb 26, 2015 6:39 pm Post subject: |
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| Mellow Yellow 74 wrote: |
| I have an engineering background and can tend to over analyse things sometimes. Just out of interest, what is your daytime job? |
Haha. I think you're just trying to say "just get started already!" in a nice way. I totally get I'm over-analyzing and I'm doing that on purpose because as someone new to this car restoration world, I'm trying to learn and maybe others will get something out of it too. Plus I'm not in a rush to get this project started so it's just fun to think about.
As for my job... uh... I'm a data analyst, I build statistical models, and crunch numbers... I kinda get paid to over analyze
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1971 Ghia coupe. Assume I know nothing and you'll be pretty darn close to the truth. |
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didget69
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Joined: July 22, 2004
Posts: 4927
Location: Raleigh, North Carolina
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| Posted: Fri Feb 27, 2015 9:32 am Post subject: |
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| J1 wrote: |
| Mellow Yellow 74 wrote: |
| I have an engineering background and can tend to over analyse things sometimes. Just out of interest, what is your daytime job? |
Haha. I think you're just trying to say "just get started already!" in a nice way. I totally get I'm over-analyzing and I'm doing that on purpose because as someone new to this car restoration world, I'm trying to learn and maybe others will get something out of it too. Plus I'm not in a rush to get this project started so it's just fun to think about.
As for my job... uh... I'm a data analyst, I build statistical models, and crunch numbers... I kinda get paid to over analyze |
Sounds like some may have fallen into the 'paralysis by analysis' syndrome, and nothing moves forward towards getting the repairs made. 
But then, I also recognize the first four letters of 'analysis', whereby one's a$$ gets in the way of getting anything accomplished.
bnc
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I never found the need to impress people with any mechanic certifications, trophies or track wins... unless it was for Mom to post on the refrigerator door. |
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J1
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Posts: 698
Location: SoCal
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Andre@KGPR/Airhead
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Joined: June 15, 2011
Posts: 228
Location: Ventura CA
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| Posted: Tue Mar 03, 2015 11:41 am Post subject: |
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We're a lot cheaper on those Rear Lower Fronts, even with the 20 off.
We'll meet any advertised price out there, too.
I've been wanting to do a Rocker replacement video for years, but that whole "only 24 hours in a day" thing is totally in the way. |
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Mscdman
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Joined: June 12, 2014
Posts: 562
Location: Denver, CO
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| Posted: Tue Mar 03, 2015 4:40 pm Post subject: |
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While we are on heater channels I wanted to post these. This repair was done to the passenger side of my car. Is this the heater channel and does it look correctly repaired?
I believe the same repair was made to the drivers side. |
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c21darrel
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Joined: January 22, 2009
Posts: 8211
Location: San Dimas
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Mscdman
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Joined: June 12, 2014
Posts: 562
Location: Denver, CO
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| Posted: Tue Mar 03, 2015 4:51 pm Post subject: |
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I'm not sure - it got welded back up before I could see it.
If it was just a patch over the top and the old piece wasn't cut out, would this repair work? Is this the heater channel? |
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c21darrel
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Joined: January 22, 2009
Posts: 8211
Location: San Dimas
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