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MC change single to dual
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sandhopper
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PostPosted: Wed Jun 25, 2014 8:44 am    Post subject: MC change single to dual Reply with quote

I have a 65 pan not sure what parts are original
I have changed the rear drums to larger brakes type 3
So I needed to change the MC to larger unit 17 mm to 19 mm
I can't seem to get a good peddel after pressure bleeding
I think that the push rod needs to change or I have a bad MC
Looking for the lenght mesurement of the push rod to get this correct before I go buy another MC
Any one know how long both rods are ? Doing the search only tells me DON'T adjust the length move the stop plate
Larry
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BL3Manx
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PostPosted: Wed Jun 25, 2014 10:55 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I think your problem might be you need to adjust your brake shoes closer. I tighten them until they're hard against the drums then back off so they turn free but still rub a bit. I also bleed the brakes with the shoes adjusted tight against the drums.

Use the pedal stop to adjust your pedals so they're resting with the foot pad pretty much veritcal, then adjust the pushrod length so there is 1mm freeplay before the pushrod contacts the cup.

The factory length pushrod works if you have a stock body. If you have a buggy body the distance the pedal can travel before it his the front bulkhead might be different.
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sandhopper
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PostPosted: Thu Jun 26, 2014 3:43 pm    Post subject: brakes Reply with quote

Still would like to know if there is a differnce in the push rod from early single to late dual .
I have used a pressure bleed unit to force fluid at all wheels and still the peddle has to much travel
I assume this MC is Bad and can find no instructions on the web for testing
I read a lot about bench bleeding and have not tried that , I assume with my pressure bleeding tool I should not have to do that step
Larry
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74Ghia
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PostPosted: Fri Jun 27, 2014 10:47 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Larry posted:
I read a lot about bench bleeding and have not tried that , I assume with my pressure bleeding tool I should not have to do that step.

I changed from a single to dual MC and did that step. You can do it with the MC installed. Doesn't take to much and then re-bleed the brakes.
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sandhopper
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PostPosted: Fri Jun 27, 2014 11:31 am    Post subject: bench bleed Reply with quote

74Ghia
Can you tell me the bench beeding procedure you used
Did you install 3 short lines and put one end in the res and pump way ?
or did you install everything and then just loosen the lines at the MC and push peddel to get the fuild to flow out there ( this way sounds messy )
As mentioned I think if I install everything and use my pressure bleed can tool and open the bleeder at the passenger rear wheel and wait for flow it should work
Larry
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74Ghia
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PostPosted: Fri Jun 27, 2014 12:45 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I used the procedure in the Aircooled Volkswagen Pages site http://vw-resource.com/bench_bleed.html
But modified it just a bit. I believe their procedure is specific to a single brake MC and I have a dual. I bled one side (the rear first) by filling the reservoir and loosening the warning light switch and then pushed the pedal in half way and let it bleed for till no air came out and tightened the warning switch. Then I did the same for the front half of the MC and finally bled the system right rear wheel to front left wheel.
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sandhopper
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PostPosted: Mon Jul 07, 2014 2:19 pm    Post subject: MC Reply with quote

I'm still having trouble with this
I have the shoes adjusted up tight and still can not get a pedal
I have to shorten the push rod so I could get the slack
I have changed the MC to a new one from China and have used a presure bleed and have fuild at all wheels
I do not see any leaks at any of the lines
The next step is to change MC to a german
I also tried the one man bleeding thing with the bottle and hose no change
Larry
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BL3Manx
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PostPosted: Mon Jul 07, 2014 5:37 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

When you have a wheel cylinder bleeder nipple open and you depress the pedal, is there a good flow of fluid at every brake?
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sandhopper
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PostPosted: Tue Jul 08, 2014 6:30 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I can see as I'm doing this by myself , but I have a small water bottle and tube hooked up and the bottle it gets fluid in it
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BL3Manx
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PostPosted: Tue Jul 08, 2014 7:50 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Doing it yourself without a pressure bleeder sounds like the whole process is a bit doubtful. When I have any problems I have an assistant pump the pedal and I watch the fluid as it comes out the bleeder nipple until the bubbles stop. Then I tell the assistant to press and hold the pedal down while I close the bleeder.

I also jack the end of the vehicle up to raise the level of the wheel cylinder or caliper that I'm bleeding above the master cylinder so the air bubbles are able to rise toward the bleeder.
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sandhopper
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PostPosted: Tue Jul 08, 2014 8:29 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I have used the presure bleeder , and pushed 4-8 oz of new fluid to all wheels , No reusing fluid
I do not have any pedal feel to hold pressure
When I block all the ports on the master cylinder I can get pedal , this is why I think the MC is good
I think maybe the next test is to block off rear port and see if I can get the front only to give me a pedal , I guess it could be bad wheel cylinder in the rear , I don't see any leaks though and they were working on the sandrail I had them on
This is so basic it has got me baffled
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sandhopper
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PostPosted: Fri Jul 11, 2014 7:19 pm    Post subject: MC troubles Reply with quote

Still having issues
I took apart the varga MC for inspection and clean up , was a bit of crap in there . It seem to cleanup ok , put it back together made a bench bleed setup . I installed it on a bare pan with a set of pedals and did the bench bleed thing using clear tubes so I could see all the air bobbles . Did the pump thing until all a saw was fluid
Install this MC in the buggy and did the bench thing a bit more .
Hooked up all the new brake lines , pumped the pedal and nothing
Open the bleeder on the driver front wheel and fluid drips . Done for the night , will try pressure bleed Saturday one more time
If this does not work I will be looking for someone to fix as I'm out of ideas
Larry
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lil-jinx
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PostPosted: Sat Jul 12, 2014 6:23 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

If you're useing the hose in the bottle trick,you need to put brake fluid in the bottle and ensure the end of the hose is in the fluid,if it is not in the fluid you will be sucking air back up into the wheel cylinder.
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sandhopper
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PostPosted: Sat Jul 12, 2014 6:43 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

lil-jinx wrote:
If you're useing the hose in the bottle trick,you need to put brake fluid in the bottle and ensure the end of the hose is in the fluid,if it is not in the fluid you will be sucking air back up into the wheel cylinder.

yes that is the way I was doing it
I got help today and we tried and tried and can not get a pedal
Next step is to get another MC
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FRANK 76
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PostPosted: Sat Jul 12, 2014 8:54 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Check all your flexible lines maybe one is swelling up but not leaking. Has caught me out before.
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yamaducci
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PostPosted: Wed Sep 17, 2014 6:42 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

One thing that has not been suggested is the wheel cylinder nipple location has to be pointing up. This got me when iwas a kid with my first bug. You have to unbolt the backing plate and rotate the assebly till the nipplie is the highest part of the wheel cylinder. If not you end up with half of each cylinder filled with trapped air. Pressure bleeding won't fix it.
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sandhopper
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PostPosted: Wed Sep 17, 2014 9:07 am    Post subject: MC brakes Reply with quote

Forgot about this post , after lots of trying and replaceing everything
All hoses wheel cyl and several MC what finally worked was to change to a Bus single unit
I now have good peddel and can use the buggy again
Larry
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joescoolcustoms
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PostPosted: Wed Sep 17, 2014 11:18 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I tried something new to me on my last buggy and it turned out good.

I run a 19mm Master cylinder. 23 mm rear wheel cylinders on type 3 brakes. 17 mm front wheel cylinders on '66 later drums.

When I installed the lines, I reversed the orientation. The front section of the master now works the rear brakes and the rear section of the master works the front brakes.

Made a world of difference in peddle pressure/position and the rears lock up just a smidgen before the fronts.

(the front section of the master cylinder will produce more pressure and fluid volume than the rear section)
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