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Vanagon Nut
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Joined: February 08, 2008
Posts: 10371
Location: Sunshine Coast B.C.
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 Posted: Sat Jun 06, 2015 3:26 pm Post subject: |
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| djkeev wrote: |
I clamped the center of the shoe to the drum and I can slip a feeler gauge between the shoe and the drum at both ends of the shoe.
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How will this affect anything? We shall see. ...
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I would think that if the wear pattern is similar to what I've seen, the lower end won't matter much at first and during hard braking, the upper end gap may close when under pressure from cylinder? (but then I can't really see the shoe bending at all....)
Neil.
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1981 Westy DIY 15º ABA
1988 West DIY 50º ABA
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?Waldo?
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Joined: February 22, 2006
Posts: 9752
Location: Where?
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| Posted: Sat Jun 06, 2015 6:31 pm Post subject: |
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| Gizmoman wrote: |
| a smaller OD of the shoe (to the ID of the drum) may be better than the opposite. |
I agree. I think slightly smaller is better than slightly larger.
I would reiterate that I did not ever say there was a problem with the method used, just that it would be good to check the fit first and unless it is off by more than the thickness of the sandpaper, it's probably not worth the effort.
Last edited by ?Waldo? on Sat Jun 06, 2015 7:26 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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atomatom
Samba Member
Joined: May 15, 2012
Posts: 1867
Location: in an 84 Westy or Bowen Island, BC
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| Posted: Sat Jun 06, 2015 6:38 pm Post subject: |
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dave, you should repeat the process with new marker. does it wear evenly the next time?
but i think andrew has a point. if you really wanted to make them fit, wouldn't you be better off using some kind of lapping compound? why not even take them for a ride that compound on and the handbrake on. remove, wash down. hope it doesn't stick in the pads.
eh. well, i will now go back and beat on my stuck drum for a bit.
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djkeev
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Joined: September 30, 2007
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Location: Reading Pennsylvania
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atomatom
Samba Member
Joined: May 15, 2012
Posts: 1867
Location: in an 84 Westy or Bowen Island, BC
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| Posted: Sat Jun 06, 2015 9:37 pm Post subject: |
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a gentle rapping, tapping on my drum. i'm hoping that driving it around a bit loosened it up. can always dream.
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djkeev
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Joined: September 30, 2007
Posts: 32598
Location: Reading Pennsylvania
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| Posted: Sun Jun 07, 2015 5:01 am Post subject: |
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I am just trying to honest and open here, not trying to distort any facts or do any coverups.
I am willing to publicly make a mistake and to wear the proverbial egg on the face as a result.
When I say "clamped" my shoe to the drum...... It was a gently squeezing from a rubber faced Dewalt plastic hand clamp.
No distortion, just a gentle holding in place action......
My gaps at each end are shown by these three pieces of thin paper tightly wedged between the shoe and the drum....... .009".
Did I do a rash action "Bozo No No"?
Maybe..... We shall see.......
Should I have checked the shoe fit in the drum before hand arcing? A resounding Yes!
Watch and learn kids.... Don't always do what I do!! 
BTW...... Automobile machine shops here in my local land of "way too much money" have all but vanished. I can ship things away but locally we have empty buildings that once housed small businesses that once built engines and made broken things whole again.
My neighbors don't fix things.... Anything! They seem support a thriving local new car retail industry..... Mostly over priced German imports it seems.... Three pointed stars, four circular rings......etc.
Their old crap trickles down to the local "common folk" such as myself.
I don't really like this land in which I Live sometimes.....
Dave
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Terry Kay
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Joined: June 22, 2003
Posts: 13331
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| Posted: Sun Jun 07, 2015 6:18 am Post subject: |
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It doesn't look as though you had a fast pass over the new drums first--I could be incorrect of my assessment of the path you took on this process.
The shoes look light on the ends--but on the top it's where the cylinder shoves the shoes into the drum--it may burnish out OK.
The bottom will ramp pretty quick out into the shoe to follow the top of the shoe if you have the lower pivot free & lubed.
The only issue you may have here is the center portion of them may get hotter than the rest & glaze over from being too high.
The results will be pretty obvious when you use the brakes--you are the test dummy here Dave.
You'll find out how they function real quick--
I'll saw this about clamping them in the middle.
When you try and clamp ( push or pull) anything into an ID radius--dead nuts center , the ends will yank up a hair--it's just the way it is.
However--I do see the ends of the shoes are a tad thinner than the center ,in the material department--I can eye ball that without a micrometer.
Just wait & see how the shoes seat when you start using them.
I don't think the tops of them will be hogged away real fast from being too tight to the drums.
The only item of interest may be the center getting too hot too quick and glazing over.
And that too may pass when the shoe seats in--you'll find this out in time.
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Last edited by Terry Kay on Sun Jun 07, 2015 6:30 am; edited 2 times in total |
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djkeev
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Terry Kay
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Joined: June 22, 2003
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| Posted: Sun Jun 07, 2015 6:59 am Post subject: |
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On this caper I wouldn't use Dummy at all.
You read, you saw, you gave it a shot.
What the hell--you did all that you could do with what you had-- while the rest of the tribe sits back and tosses out their theories, and does nothing.
If you slide back to the You tube posts , one of them has a live demo on how the drum brakes should function.
Watch how the shoes contact the drum upon application.
The entire shoe smacks into the drum evenly on a floating drum brake setup.
Not just the center , not just the ends--the entire face of the OD contact area of the shoe--evenly.
But by the way the shoes get applied, the top & the bottom get cranked out first--so you may be good.
I think from what you did , if you take it easy for awhile the high spots can / will burnish out--
See what happens--don't get nervous-- yet--
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?Waldo?
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| Posted: Sun Jun 07, 2015 8:18 am Post subject: |
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Dave, I think what you did will work out fine. At worst you spent a little time and might have shortened the life of the shoes slightly but you ended up with some nice pictures and a good discussion.
For future reference, 40 grit is probably heavier grit than necessary and consequently thicker. One could probably start with 80 or 100 grit paper that has a thinner backing with a resulting closer match when the sandpaper is removed. Regardless, as mentioned, too small of an arc on the shoes is probably better than too large. |
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atomatom
Samba Member
Joined: May 15, 2012
Posts: 1867
Location: in an 84 Westy or Bowen Island, BC
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| Posted: Sun Jun 07, 2015 8:38 am Post subject: |
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agree and big kudos for posting the pics and ideas. i hope you update the result on a test drive.
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Vanagon Nut
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Joined: February 08, 2008
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Location: Sunshine Coast B.C.
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| Posted: Thu Jul 30, 2015 1:06 pm Post subject: |
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I have the McMaster shims.
With new shoes, drums, do folks determine the correct shim thickness for a given set of shoes by checking initial wear
pattern then adjusting shims as needed?
Or?
Thanks,
Neil.
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djkeev
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Terry Kay
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| Posted: Thu Jul 30, 2015 7:27 pm Post subject: |
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A a real big AMEN to this short, sweet, & informative end result post Dave.
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Vanagon Nut
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Location: Sunshine Coast B.C.
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| Posted: Fri Jul 31, 2015 11:11 am Post subject: |
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I learned a lot from info in this thread and now have a basic general understanding of how a floating brake design should work.
So with new drums, un-arced shoes, hardware installed correctly, parts lubed where needed, i.e. all parts working correctly, shimming out the bottom posts 1-2 mm does nothing to increase amount of shoe that contacts drum? i.e. might at very least reduce amount of time required for shoes to bed in sufficiently?
Thanks
Neil.
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1988 West DIY 50º ABA
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crazyvwvanman
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Joined: January 28, 2008
Posts: 9923
Location: Orbiting San Diego
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| Posted: Fri Jul 31, 2015 11:20 am Post subject: |
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The shims can certainly improve the contact area of the shoe lining to the drum. Whether it would do so on YOUR van I can't say. I use the shims when I deem it useful to do so. I don't put them in every van.
The brakes will work without the shims so some might say that means they aren't "needed". Lots of stuff people here add to their vans isn't "needed" but they consider it useful. For me it is "useful" to improve the contact area even if it isn't strictly needed.
Mark
| Vanagon Nut wrote: |
I learned a lot from info in this thread and now have a basic general understanding of how a floating brake design should work.
So with new drums, un-arced shoes, hardware installed correctly, parts lubed where needed, i.e. all parts working correctly, shimming out the bottom posts 1-2 mm does nothing to increase amount of shoe that contacts drum? i.e. might at very least reduce amount of time required for shoes to bed in sufficiently?
Thanks
Neil. |
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shadetreetim
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Joined: January 10, 2011
Posts: 1994
Location: Riverside, California
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| Posted: Fri Jul 31, 2015 11:45 am Post subject: |
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Having recently repacked my rear bearings, I used the opportunity to service the brakes, installing the shims and Porterfield shoes. My old shoes were of indeterminate age, they came on the van when I bought it, but were still in good shape.
At the same time, I adjusted the parking brake to crazyvwvanman's recommendation (if I remember correctly) of 5 clicks, fully applied.
My brakes jumped from what I thought was pretty damn good to great. Was the shims responsible for any of it? I don't know, my parking brake handle has been near its limit for a long time, it is probably responsible for most of the improvement.
Anecdotal at best, but there you go. I have no desire to pull the drums again just to check the wear pattern. 
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Vanagon Nut
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Location: Sunshine Coast B.C.
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| Posted: Fri Jul 31, 2015 12:02 pm Post subject: |
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Ok. Thanks guys.
Good to hear back on the Porterfield;
I've been considering those.
The GoWesty shoes I've got appear to have ~ 6 mm lining thickness.
It would be a bunch more
work and may show nothing, but
I'd be curious to install new parts, no shims,
run bus on jack stands, apply brakes, then do
same with shims, see if there is any difference
in contact marks. But that small amount of
"braking" may make no marks on shoes and
I'm not want to put sharpie marks on new shoes.
Neil.
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1988 West DIY 50º ABA
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rubbachicken
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| Posted: Fri Jul 31, 2015 12:03 pm Post subject: |
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needed no, but have you tried adding them, they make a difference.
i have many customers who will attest to this.
| djkeev wrote: |
IF all things are assembled properly, the pivot points move freely, the slide points slide as they should, no shims are needed.
Dave |
and terry, send me an address, i'll send you the shims, you can see for yourself, i promise not to give you too much "i told you so"
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tlbranth
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| Posted: Fri Jul 31, 2015 12:47 pm Post subject: |
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[quote="Terry KayIf in fact the shims were a required item of brake improvement, VW would have had a service & parts bulletin on this.
-[/quote]
That's a good one
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