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tlbranth Samba Member
Joined: May 24, 2014 Posts: 209 Location: Carnation, Wa
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Posted: Sun Aug 02, 2015 7:42 pm Post subject: |
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Some things that may be of interest:
One of my pivot pins was stuck. Liquid wrench, mapp gas - no joy. Finally mixed a brew I'd read about on the bike forums - ATF & acetone 50/50. I wrapped some paper towel around the joint and soaked it in the brew. Next day, out it came.
I cleaned and lubed all the sliding points. I put 2 shims under the rear shoe pivots but none under the fronts. My aim here was to give me more forward braking without harming reverse braking. And it did make a difference.
I checked the auto adjusters and they 'seeeeeeemed' to function but I'd really like to adjust them myself. I made a 1/4" plywood cutout to set the initial adjustment per the Bentley and got the initial adjustment done. I figured I could make an external adjustment tool to get it right in spite of the auto adjusters but couldn't get anything really good going. The hole is offset from the adjuster and there's very little room back there to operate. Anyone had any success in this area? _________________ Terry
1991 Westfailure. 2004 Forester 2.5 engine. 4speed Standard transmission. |
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rubbachicken Samba Member
Joined: October 05, 2004 Posts: 3058 Location: socal
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shadetreetim Samba Member
Joined: January 10, 2011 Posts: 1994 Location: Riverside, California
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Posted: Sun Aug 02, 2015 10:15 pm Post subject: |
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I bought one of the cheap FLAPS import brake spoons, and cut the side off of it with a die grinder so it would fit through the hole.
_________________ Tim Potts
Doing my best every time I drive it to dispel the myth these Vanagons have to be slow!
'89 Vanagon Bluestar/Country Homes 1.8T & .77 4th
'74 Jeep CJ5 |
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atomatom Samba Member
Joined: May 15, 2012 Posts: 1867 Location: in an 84 Westy or Bowen Island, BC
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Posted: Sun Aug 02, 2015 11:17 pm Post subject: |
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i have an offset screwdriver that works well. also handy if you ever want to remove your sliding window locks.
but a stubby flat screwdriver will also work.
_________________ 84 Vanagon Westy, 1.9L, California raised but defected to Canada. |
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djkeev Samba Moderator
Joined: September 30, 2007 Posts: 32433 Location: Reading Pennsylvania
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djkeev Samba Moderator
Joined: September 30, 2007 Posts: 32433 Location: Reading Pennsylvania
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Posted: Sat Nov 14, 2015 11:15 am Post subject: Re: Rear drum brake spacer mod |
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From Mark and TK in another thread....
crazyvwvanman wrote: |
Nonsense. The lower end of the shoe rides in a slot of the lower pin. The shoe slides a little and rolls a little in the slot. The shims added below the shoulder of that pin don't prevent the shoe from moving in the slot. Once the parts are installed the pin doesn't need to move at all, and it doesn't. It isn't supposed to be frozen in place but that happens to many of them over time. Best to free them up and lubricate the end of the pin so it can move during brake assembly and disassembly. A free pin is not needed for the brakes to work correctly but is helpful when working on the brakes. When you install the shoes you put the lower ends in the slots and for this to happen it helps if the pins can move to allow desired the insertion angle. When the top end of the shoes are then put into the slots of the wheel cylinder pistons the shoes swing over into their normal position. Again, for this to happen easily the lower pins need to be free to rotate. Once the shoes are in their normal position the pins no longer need to move. That is why the pins can get frozen. They don't move during normal operation so they can seize in the bores over time.
Mark |
Terry Kay wrote: |
The shims defy all practical correct rear brake operation.
It isn't as any manufacture intended the operating process to take place.
Now that the shoe radiusing that I brought to the attention of most of the experts here--never heard of such a thing.
Huh.
Want full contact on the shoes to the drums ?
Amazing.
That 10 page BS thread sure showed me that there certainly are some babies here that need a need a good education on drum brake application, the difference between pinned shoes & floating shoes, and the stupid idea of shimming the shoes outvon the bottom is a half assed
hack , quick "I think It's going to work" hillbily rube fix.
Nobody, nowhere, in any drum brake application Ever Has Used This garbage wayvto get the shoes to make contact with the drum correctly, except the hobbyists here.
Hoobyist, remember that key word to non-accepted practices. |
Terry Kay wrote: |
Furthermore there is a direct formula for how much is cut from the drum to how many degrees should be radiused on the shoes to fit evenly.
There is nothing mentioned anywhere, in any formula for taking up space on the lower shoe resting point to get that correct distance.
I'll change my mind, the mechanics at VW, VOLVO, and any other professional mechanic who I have talked to regarding this very subject.
I want to change the entire vehicle industries outlook &
mind on this subject.
You know much better here in Vanagon Land.
Show me the exact published vehicle mfg.shimming specs.
Tip;
There aren't any, anywhere. |
_________________ Stop Dead Photo Links how to post photos
Ghia
http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=392473
Vanagon
http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?p=6315537#6315537
Beetle
https://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=482968&highlight=74+super+vert |
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rubbachicken Samba Member
Joined: October 05, 2004 Posts: 3058 Location: socal
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Posted: Sat Nov 14, 2015 8:11 pm Post subject: Re: Rear drum brake spacer mod |
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to those out there who say this is an un necessary mod, go try
yes VW made it the way they did, but they didn't offer a brig brake kit either, or the bigger booster, 2.2l WBX's or 2.5 WBX's, likely not even a 2.7l WBX not forgetting the stainless coolant lines, or the heater shut off valve, propane tank filler extension, westy upper bunk step, or brighter headlamps, bigger wheels and tires
if your rig is 100% stock as it left the factory, fine, if you've improved it in anyway, get out of your pram try it _________________ lucy our westy
lucy's BIG adventure
meet 'burni'
markswagen {mobile mechanic} san diego area all early VW's cared for.
619 201 0310 or 617 935 4182 |
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Terry Kay Banned
Joined: June 22, 2003 Posts: 13331
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Posted: Sat Nov 14, 2015 8:45 pm Post subject: Re: Rear drum brake spacer mod |
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Let's try it this way;
Discounting updated parts that are no longer available like pipes updated propane valves, etc.
Hung on aftermarket equasion accesories that will not alter the vans performance is not even close.
Now, how have you verified that in fact the attack angle of the shoes have improved the rear braking?
Have you blued the shoes, painted them to give you an example of how the shoes fit better shimming them out rather than having the drums cut with the shoes machined , radiused, cut ,to match them?
Haphazardly tossing in some shims on the bottom pivot point will not give anyone guarateed even contact on the entire drum or shoes.
And you don't have any documentation to prove me incorrect.
Shimming the bottoms out will not guarantee the wheel cylinder will not cause premature wear on the top of the shoe only.
However, I will guarantee even shoe wear if all of the hardware in the drum is new & operational, and the shoes fit to the drums--evenly.
I have documentation on shoe brake improvements, and complete even contact with shoe radiusing to match the drums evenly.
So, I say;
I'm from Missouri, your going to have to show me your data.
Seat of the pants ain't gonna make it.
If you were hanging disc brakes on the rear end would be considered a big improvement, adding shims, moving the shoes out a hair is not an improvement, it's a haphazard approach to not much at best. _________________ T.K. |
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rubbachicken Samba Member
Joined: October 05, 2004 Posts: 3058 Location: socal
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Posted: Sat Nov 14, 2015 10:16 pm Post subject: Re: Rear drum brake spacer mod |
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you may the time to mess around, i read / heard that this was a worth while, so i tried it, and do you know what, it made a difference, it puts more shoe % in contact with the drum, this = better stopping
i tried it on another van, it did the same to that, and so on, there was pattern, but hey, you go back to where ever you are put your slippers on and find a nice book.
i'm done...................................................................
this works, try it _________________ lucy our westy
lucy's BIG adventure
meet 'burni'
markswagen {mobile mechanic} san diego area all early VW's cared for.
619 201 0310 or 617 935 4182 |
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Terry Kay Banned
Joined: June 22, 2003 Posts: 13331
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Posted: Sat Nov 14, 2015 10:51 pm Post subject: Re: Rear drum brake spacer mod |
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<< i read / heard that this was a worth while, so i tried it, and do you know what, it made a difference, it puts more shoe % in contact with the drum>>
You have this all documented and have all of the contact measurements to show everyone how much more shoe contacts the drum, and does so evenly from the top to the bottom, therefore dramatically improving the rear braking process---right?
Show me this info & the measurements top to bottom of the shoe.
Word of mouth, or seat of pants isn't acceptable.
"It puts % in contact with the drum"
How much top to bottom--evenly---and what is that exact percentage of difference.
Right now you're the chicken crying "wolf " and have absolutely nothing verifiable or conclusive evidence, other than you said so.
Show me the documentation on this.
"Hearing this" isn't a good evidence to work off of.
Lot's of guys here "Hear It Somewhere", or "somebody told them".
They never have been able to produce that somebody or tell anyone "Who" told them anything--
Still an old witches tale. _________________ T.K. |
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djkeev Samba Moderator
Joined: September 30, 2007 Posts: 32433 Location: Reading Pennsylvania
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Terry Kay Banned
Joined: June 22, 2003 Posts: 13331
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Posted: Sun Nov 15, 2015 7:10 am Post subject: Re: Rear drum brake spacer mod |
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I really think that you have had some of this mixed up in your pancakes here this morning Dave.
And that's OK--
The Captain got you to the same place as them spacer's would have.
You'd be sailing and had never left dry land---
Remain in a coma--all kinds of good things can happen-- _________________ T.K. |
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Terry Kay Banned
Joined: June 22, 2003 Posts: 13331
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Posted: Sun Nov 15, 2015 7:49 am Post subject: Re: Rear drum brake spacer mod |
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Link
Here is a hands on example of how to to this job properly--and while it's on the Vehicle--
Watch--
It can't get much easier than this--- _________________ T.K. |
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Terry Kay Banned
Joined: June 22, 2003 Posts: 13331
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Posted: Sun Nov 15, 2015 8:06 am Post subject: Re: Rear drum brake spacer mod |
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So, for you out there that still can't seem to get a good fix on this process, can't find anyone that has the machine, don't want to buy one, here's how to perform this on your own;
"Yeah it's kind of a lost art & not too many places do that anymore. If you can't find a place that does it you can still do it yourself with a little time and patience.
First, make sure all your drums are not out of round to start with. New drums can be off as much as .020 right out of the box. Especially the import ones. Have a place that does rotors turn & check them for you.
Next, take some self adhesive continuous roll sand paper (36 or 40 grit) and mark a straight line on the length of your shoe lining with a permanent marker. Work the shoe back & forth against the sandpaper on the inside of the drum. Practice on an old shoe first to get the hang of it. Keep checking your work. Take the sandpaper off & check your fit against the inside of the drum for gaps. When you are satisfied with the fit, put a slight bevel (.010) on the trailing edge of the shoe ends to help them break in faster once they are installed."
[/img] _________________ T.K. |
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Christopher Schimke Samba Member
Joined: August 03, 2005 Posts: 5375 Location: PNW
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Posted: Sun Nov 15, 2015 8:15 am Post subject: Re: Rear drum brake spacer mod |
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Terry, That "on the vehicle" demonstration is not really relative to the Vanagon. That demo is being done on an early Ford brake system. That braking system anchors one end of the shoe to the backing plate. In other words, the shoe does not float like it does in the modern Bendix-style braking system. Because the shoes on the early Ford system are anchored to the backing plate, the "on the vehicle" shoe arcing/radiusing can be performed because the shoes are stable. If you tried this with a floating shoe system, like on the Vanagon, the shoes would walk all over the place and the results would be inconsistent at best. _________________ "Sometimes you have to build a box to think outside of." - Bruce (not Springsteen)
*Custom wheel hardware for Audi/VW, Porsche and Mercedes wheels - Urethane Suspension Bushings*
T3Technique.com or contact me at [email protected] |
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Terry Kay Banned
Joined: June 22, 2003 Posts: 13331
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Posted: Sun Nov 15, 2015 8:34 am Post subject: Re: Rear drum brake spacer mod |
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You are 100% correct Chris.
It was posted just to show the rest of the the folks here, that in fact new shoes are not on the money.
The sound of grinder on the pinned shoes gives you an idea of how they are not spot on as the grinder swings around the shoes-- hitting & removing high spots.
Maybe the axle mounted grinder would work on the Vanagon--
Seeing as most of the lower shoe pivots are frozen up anyway--this grinder would give them a quick clean up---
Your the first guy--( beside myself ) that has mentioned "Fixed" or "Pinned" shoes here.
I thought I was all on my own with this phenomena-- floating shoe operating theory of operation--some guys told me I was outa my mind.
( I am, but that is besides the point )
I'm proud of you picking up on this one--
And I'm sure you picked up on the manual method too with a pretty good explanation of what is what, and how to get it done on your own--with no machinery.
That was posted for this very reason-- _________________ T.K. |
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Mellow Yellow 74 Samba Member
Joined: October 14, 2014 Posts: 1615 Location: Sydney, Australia
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Posted: Thu Sep 21, 2017 6:56 am Post subject: Re: Rear drum brake spacer mod |
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Today I inspected the rear brakes that I replaced a couple of years ago and found that the front shoe on each side was wearing about 3/4 of the way down on both sides but the rear show was only wearing to about 1/3 of the way down.
I found this thread which talks about installing a shim under the pivot to move the shoe out a little so more of the shoe contacts the drum. This sounds like a good idea I thought, then read through all 12 pages most of which was TK going on and on and on about why this is a bad idea. Wow that guy was hard work. _________________ 1962 Karmann Ghia
1974 Deluxe Microbus
1985 Caravelle (Vanagon) |
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stevey88 Samba Member
Joined: January 16, 2008 Posts: 1317 Location: Fremont, SF Bay Area
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Posted: Thu Sep 21, 2017 8:52 am Post subject: Re: Rear drum brake spacer mod |
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Take it off and use a blow torch. After taking the two cylinders off, file the groove flat. The shoe would have worn an indent on them. The shoes need to slide a bit in it in order to engage nearly all the friction material to the drum. You still need the spacer under the cylinder. Or you can buy a new one:
http://www.van-cafe.com/page_1716_633/brake-shoe-pivot-pin _________________ Steve
87 Westfalia full camper 4 speed |
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