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periscopebill Samba Member
Joined: May 17, 2013 Posts: 148 Location: Brooklyn
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Posted: Sun Jun 29, 2014 8:02 am Post subject: Marigold: FI drama, Starting Issues & Front End |
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So, if you're on the T3 email list you may have heard the drama Marigold (71 FI Squareback) and I had getting to the Invasion, but I wanted to get some advice regarding the remaining cold start issues, after a lot of the FI issues that I had been having were resolved. I want to recap, just so you have have all the info. If you've already read this on the list feel free to skip towards the bottom, this is gonna be long..
A little under halfway to the invasion I started having some hesitation and stumbling off idle after I stopped for gas. I could still get up to speed relatively well, but it was clearly having some trouble, after pulling plug wires I found both 1 & 3 weren't firing. I then spent the remainder of the drive slowly decreasing in speed running on two cylinders. It was a long night.
Over the course of the weekend Jim Adney with a slew of other invaders helped to get me back on the road. What was bizarre was that as we would replace/repair things it would run fine for another hour or long enough that we thought the problem had been fixed and then issues would return. Here's what was fixed over the course of the weekend:
6/20
Intake temp sensor wire- one was broken, thought to have caused the running rich
Spark plugs 1 & 3 replaced, both were totally black
It would drive okay under heavy throttle but there was a lot of bucking at any speed.
6/21
MPS, the copper bellows had split almost all the way around and was barely hanging on by 1/4" in one spot
One of the other Invaders- Lyndon ended up having the correct MPS that he brought along as a spare, so we installed it that night. After replacing the MPS It had some issues with starting up, pulled #1 spark plug- totally black again, and bizarrely when using the timing light on the #1 SP wire it would cause the light to stop working halfway down the wire. All wires had been tested for continuity the previous day and were good, once we replaced the plug it behaved as normal.
Checked dwell and adjusted timing. Test drove, was running great, no more bucking.
6/22
Drove fine in the morning, after about an hour of driving the power dropped out again and I was back on 2 cylinders going 30 mph.
We found:
Trigger points in the distributor- the cause of 1 & 3 not working. Even after oiling up the pivot points, they were still very sloow returning. Replaced with good trigger points and greased the cam in the distributor.
Checked fuel pressure it was low around 26psi and the needle was bouncing around a lot.
We then checked injectors- the wires to 3 & 4 had been swapped, and the connections on 1 & 2 were loose, corrected the wires and tightened up the pins.
The fuel pressure was still bouncing, we found the fuel filter was clogged giving much less gas to the engine. Replaced that with a good used bosch filter and adjusted pressure to 30psi, the needle now stayed steady.
We then replaced all four spark plugs with Bosch WR8AP plugs, in the hopes these wouldn't foul as quickly, as it was getting late and I was still going to attempt to drive home. The idle was high after test driving, but everything seemed good, adjusted idle back down and I left for home.
Along the way the cold start issues began. I had stopped for gas on the way home and the car sat for about 20 minutes. Upon starting, there was a lot of surging at idle. It seemed to even out after driving around the gas station so I continued on.
This past week it's had a hard time idling for the first few minutes, surging a lot at idle like it wants to die. I usually have to give it gas to keep it going. Then after about 5 minutes it evens out. Jim believed it to be the AAR sticking so he sent one to swap it out with.
****
Yesterday I met up with D/A/N and neena who were kind enough to help me swap out the AAR along with testing and correcting some other issues.
We replaced the AAR, which happened to be missing a nut on one side as well as finding the gasket below to be toast. We swapped out the AAR, and replaced the gasket. Scarily the accelerator cable return spring had just been barely hooked over the side of the AAR this entire time- no bracket to be found. They happened to have a bracket from a carb linkage that I'm using until the bracket I've ordered arrives.
Looking closer, the fuel line running across the top of the engine between injectors seemed short and had been running right over an open hole in the tin under the air cleaner. This seemed to be causing the air cleaner to rattle excessively, especially at idle, which sounded pretty horrendous. It also was causing the fuel line to get very hot. We replaced this with some longer hose so it had some more room, and plugged the hole.
We checked and fired up the car, after one attempt it fired right up, no surging at idle, no hesitation nothing.
From here, we checked points- dwell was high around 65* and idle sounded high. Adjusted points, dwell dead on to 48*, though timing was retarded. We corrected timing, then found the idle was high about 1200-1300 rpm. Backed that down, then adjusted timing again.
Everything seems great- the idle is very steady and when warm the car fires right up like it used to. The rattle from the air filter has also totally gone away. But now when cold its back to surging and needing gas for the first minute or so of running. The idle seems to smooth out sooner than it used to, 1/2 minutes rather than 5. And now, it also appears that the oil breather has a vapor coming out of the top cap, as well as the hose that goes to the air filter. The wispy vapor/ smoke isn't pouring out but it's definitely visible. One of the POs had done some hack jobbing and put screws into the top trying to hold the cap down, but they seem stripped. The vapor definitely smells of oil, but not burning, but I would assume this is not good?
We checked for vacuum leaks thinking this was the next likely culprit for the surge at idle. Tested around the intake manifold and injectors, no difference.
Any suggestions on where to go from here?
Last edited by periscopebill on Sat Jul 26, 2014 1:23 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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Tram Samba Socialist
Joined: May 02, 2003 Posts: 22711 Location: Still Feelin' the Bern- Once you've felt it you can't un- feel it.
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Posted: Sun Jun 29, 2014 10:15 am Post subject: |
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1. Adjust your throttle switch per Bentley. this is often the cause of intermittent surging/ bucking.
2. Did anyone check charging system output? _________________ Немає виправдання для війни! Я з Україною.
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periscopebill Samba Member
Joined: May 17, 2013 Posts: 148 Location: Brooklyn
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Posted: Tue Jul 01, 2014 5:55 am Post subject: |
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Tram wrote: |
1. Adjust your throttle switch per Bentley. this is often the cause of intermittent surging/ bucking.
2. Did anyone check charging system output? |
I was all set to adjust my throttle switch, but I've noticed since Saturday the bucking/surging now seems to be gone at cold start, is this something I should still look at adjusting? I was told it was checked at the invasion.
For whatever reason it still takes 2-3 tries to stay running, I can crank it and it'll start up fine, but then it dies after a few seconds. After giving it gas, it stays running and goes right into a high idle, and then evens out, no surging.
I went to check the charging system last night after I got home (it had been sitting for about 20 minutes) and found that the surging is back but only after its been warmed up. If I stop briefly (like a for few minutes) anywhere it fires back up and runs normally.
With checking the charging, it seemed low when I first started it (during the surging) it was bouncing around from 12.3/12.5 but then it slowly rose, as the idle evened out. After giving it some gas the idle totally smoothed out and it was right around 13.8.
I've even tried running the pump for a few times before cranking, to see if maybe that was the problem, but it doesn't seem to make a difference. |
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Bobnotch Samba Member
Joined: July 06, 2003 Posts: 22407 Location: Kimball, Mi
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Posted: Tue Jul 01, 2014 9:37 am Post subject: |
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periscopebill wrote: |
With checking the charging, it seemed low when I first started it (during the surging) it was bouncing around from 12.3/12.5 but then it slowly rose, as the idle evened out. After giving it some gas the idle totally smoothed out and it was right around 13.8. |
Was this 13.8 volt reading after it warmed up at medium rpms (about 2300 rpms)? Or was it just a warmed up idle speed voltage reading? Just asking, because IF it's a warmed up medium revs reading, then it's low. That reading should be somewhere between 14.1 and 14.5 volts (at 2300 rpms) with the reading taken at the battery. _________________ Bob 65 Notch S with Sunroof
71 Notch ...aka Krunchy; build pics here;
http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=249390 -been busy working
64 T-34 Ghia...aka Wolfie, under construction... http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=412120
Tram wrote: |
"Friends are God's way of apologizing for relatives." |
Tram wrote: |
People keep confusing "restored" and "restroyed". |
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periscopebill Samba Member
Joined: May 17, 2013 Posts: 148 Location: Brooklyn
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Posted: Tue Jul 01, 2014 11:04 am Post subject: |
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Bobnotch wrote: |
Was this 13.8 volt reading after it warmed up at medium rpms (about 2300 rpms)? Or was it just a warmed up idle speed voltage reading? Just asking, because IF it's a warmed up medium revs reading, then it's low. That reading should be somewhere between 14.1 and 14.5 volts (at 2300 rpms) with the reading taken at the battery. |
The 13.8 was just a warmed up idle speed voltage reading, I can get a warmed up medium revs reading tonight. |
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periscopebill Samba Member
Joined: May 17, 2013 Posts: 148 Location: Brooklyn
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Posted: Mon Jul 07, 2014 7:02 am Post subject: |
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Thought I'd do a quick update, though not much has changed. Bobnotch, I did check the warmed up at medium revs voltage- was reading at 14.1.
I had tried a couple things this past weekend just to see if anything changed. My cold start plug has been unplugged since all of this has been going on, I tried plugging it back in, and it seemed to help the first time I started it up, as in it fired right up, but now it's back to taking a couple tries to start. I'm assuming that was just a fluke.
I also tried just unplugging the throttle switch to see if that made a difference in the surging/dropping off that it does after being warmed up and then started again. It made no difference.
The idle is steady right around 850 +/- from where it was set last weekend. And just to clarify, with the idle issues when it's warmed up, it actually will slow down to the point of almost dying, then pick back up.
I believe I had NKG plugs in there to start with, they have since all be swapped out with bosch platinum, there was some debate on the t3 list about platinum plugs, should I try swapping them out just to see if this makes a difference? And what does everybody usually use? W8ACs?
Aside from these start issues my car is running really well, but I know with the FI you shouldn't need to be laying on the gas to keep it going. I'm happy to try/test anything else if anyone has any ideas. |
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Tram Samba Socialist
Joined: May 02, 2003 Posts: 22711 Location: Still Feelin' the Bern- Once you've felt it you can't un- feel it.
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Posted: Mon Jul 07, 2014 9:28 am Post subject: |
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periscopebill wrote: |
Thought I'd do a quick update, though not much has changed. Bobnotch, I did check the warmed up at medium revs voltage- was reading at 14.1.
I had tried a couple things this past weekend just to see if anything changed. My cold start plug has been unplugged since all of this has been going on, I tried plugging it back in, and it seemed to help the first time I started it up, as in it fired right up, but now it's back to taking a couple tries to start. I'm assuming that was just a fluke.
I also tried just unplugging the throttle switch to see if that made a difference in the surging/dropping off that it does after being warmed up and then started again. It made no difference.
The idle is steady right around 850 +/- from where it was set last weekend. And just to clarify, with the idle issues when it's warmed up, it actually will slow down to the point of almost dying, then pick back up.
I believe I had NKG plugs in there to start with, they have since all be swapped out with bosch platinum, there was some debate on the t3 list about platinum plugs, should I try swapping them out just to see if this makes a difference? And what does everybody usually use? W8ACs?
Aside from these start issues my car is running really well, but I know with the FI you shouldn't need to be laying on the gas to keep it going. I'm happy to try/test anything else if anyone has any ideas. |
Never, ever use platinum plugs. I've seen platinum plugs cause more runability issues than any other single thing. Whoever advocates platinum plugs on these cars should be shot, LOL.
Change them out to plain Bosch or NGK non resistors. While this may not solve your issue, plats can fail at any time so you need to eliminate that possibility. _________________ Немає виправдання для війни! Я з Україною.
Bryan67 wrote: |
Just my hands. And a little lube. No tools. |
To best contact me, please use the EMAIL function in my profile |
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raygreenwood Samba Member
Joined: November 24, 2008 Posts: 21510 Location: Oklahoma City
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Posted: Tue Jul 08, 2014 6:49 pm Post subject: |
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Tram wrote: |
periscopebill wrote: |
Thought I'd do a quick update, though not much has changed. Bobnotch, I did check the warmed up at medium revs voltage- was reading at 14.1.
I had tried a couple things this past weekend just to see if anything changed. My cold start plug has been unplugged since all of this has been going on, I tried plugging it back in, and it seemed to help the first time I started it up, as in it fired right up, but now it's back to taking a couple tries to start. I'm assuming that was just a fluke.
I also tried just unplugging the throttle switch to see if that made a difference in the surging/dropping off that it does after being warmed up and then started again. It made no difference.
The idle is steady right around 850 +/- from where it was set last weekend. And just to clarify, with the idle issues when it's warmed up, it actually will slow down to the point of almost dying, then pick back up.
I believe I had NKG plugs in there to start with, they have since all be swapped out with bosch platinum, there was some debate on the t3 list about platinum plugs, should I try swapping them out just to see if this makes a difference? And what does everybody usually use? W8ACs?
Aside from these start issues my car is running really well, but I know with the FI you shouldn't need to be laying on the gas to keep it going. I'm happy to try/test anything else if anyone has any ideas. |
Never, ever use platinum plugs. I've seen platinum plugs cause more runability issues than any other single thing. Whoever advocates platinum plugs on these cars should be shot, LOL.
Change them out to plain Bosch or NGK non resistors. While this may not solve your issue, plats can fail at any time so you need to eliminate that possibility. |
Dewd!.....platinum plugs are great with aircooled cars! Pure automotive bling! Its platinum man!
I hang one on the gold chain around my neck.....one on the mirror and two more on the rear bumper.
Man!....with this sweet mullet im rockin and my new Justin Beiber sideways hat....I should be swimming in weak minded butt by the weekend!
Ray |
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KTPhil Samba Member
Joined: April 06, 2006 Posts: 33991 Location: Conejo Valley, CA
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Posted: Tue Jul 08, 2014 10:28 pm Post subject: |
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When my FI engine was newly rebuilt, I could run platinums and they boosted gas mileage by about 1-2 mpg. But once the engine was worn a bit (and since it was parked for 6-7 years and then revived), they were lousy. I now run the old W8AC plugs, at least until I run out. |
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periscopebill Samba Member
Joined: May 17, 2013 Posts: 148 Location: Brooklyn
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Posted: Wed Jul 09, 2014 8:14 am Post subject: |
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Tram wrote: |
Never, ever use platinum plugs. I've seen platinum plugs cause more runability issues than any other single thing. Whoever advocates platinum plugs on these cars should be shot, LOL.
Change them out to plain Bosch or NGK non resistors. While this may not solve your issue, plats can fail at any time so you need to eliminate that possibility. |
Aha, thanks for the info, I just picked up some NGKs and I also went ahead and ordered W8ACs just for fun. I'm going to swap them out this weekend hopefully it'll make a difference. From Ray's response it sounds like it will or I'll at least have something nice to hang from my rear view mirror.
KTPhil wrote: |
When my FI engine was newly rebuilt, I could run platinums and they boosted gas mileage by about 1-2 mpg. But once the engine was worn a bit (and since it was parked for 6-7 years and then revived), they were lousy. I now run the old W8AC plugs, at least until I run out. |
Good to know, thanks! I'm definitely still working with the original un-rebuilt engine, it was sitting for about 1-2 years before being brought back to life. I just recovered my backseat, and found a nice collection of mouse poop. |
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Intrinsic Samba Member
Joined: November 16, 2011 Posts: 262 Location: Clearwater, FL
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Posted: Wed Jul 09, 2014 8:20 am Post subject: |
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What is the root of the problem with Platinum plugs? Is it easier fouling due to the thin electrode?
Thanks |
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raygreenwood Samba Member
Joined: November 24, 2008 Posts: 21510 Location: Oklahoma City
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Posted: Wed Jul 09, 2014 1:30 pm Post subject: |
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Intrinsic wrote: |
What is the root of the problem with Platinum plugs? Is it easier fouling due to the thin electrode?
Thanks |
No....platinum plugs are actually excellent...for more modern ignition systems.
Back in what...the 80's?...(might have been late 70's) when Bosch first started marketing the platinum plugs....the advertising was actually quite crafty. They noted (and I'm paraphrasing) that cars with some mileage on them that had become hard to start...could start easier with their new platinum plugs.....and...they were right.
In say the average 1980's systems of relatively new cars you generally had some form of hall effect or transistorized ignition. But...you generally still had spark plug wires and distributor caps. Typically the average mid-milage car that had become hard to start...barring fuel system or major mechanical issues...usually had high resistance between coil and plug (old plug wires, poor grounds, poor resistance)....in short you needed too much juice to create ionization for solid spark on a big fat copper plug.
What the platinum plug did....was it had a smaller diameter, lower resistance, higher temperature electrode. It was also small and pointy....all are great enhancements toward ionization point (the point at which the arc begins)......ever wonder why a lightning rod is specifically ground pointy?
But.....the sparks created by the smaller diameter electrode on medium and low voltage engines with platinum plugs tend to be lower temperature and smaller....small pinkish sparks. Yes.....they may spark more reliably on an engine that is losing current somewhere in the mix....but its a different spark.
In the late 70's/early 80's ...most modern ignition systems had between 45 and 55 Kv (rabbits, jettas etc...have a 55 Kv coil)...with some systems like the GM HEI....with 60-80 Kv or more.
The average ACVW with points has about 18Kv to spread around
Move to the current generation of modern engines since say...the 1990's...and most have about 55Kv or more PER PLUG.
Platinum plugs run very well with these high voltage/high compression engines...and may be running several sparks per cycle.
Small low resistance electrodes are the norm because they waste less current to produce a good spark...and most modern ignition systems are now ion sensing type and use the electrode as a sensor to remap spark by analyzing demand.
Nickle copper runs well in the new cars as well...but in some situations with changes in fuel or wide ambient temps.....you can find the car not running quite as well. This is mainly because the older technology nickle copper is not as good of a sensor for the system.
Also...since many modern systems have a bit of adaptive logic...if the plug gaps change to rapidly from wear (common with leaner burning high compression engines and modern crappy gasoline).....you can get odd running or the occasional diagnostic system light flashing. This is why most manufacturers have migrated to either an iridium electrode (even thinner and much higher temp and longer wearing)....or a double platinum electrode....similar characteristics to iridium....but larger electrode and cheaper to build than iridium.
There are lots of other plug issues out there....some are just gimmicks that work ok....but dont last. (Splitfire and E-3 to name a few)
But in a nutshell, our engines need large hot sparks....or at least the correct size sparks. Platinum plugs in the ACVW engine running with standard VW coils.....have incomplete burn issues with the fuel. Its even worse with alcohol.
If you go to a hall type system with much higher voltage....they actually work pretty well. Ray |
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Tram Samba Socialist
Joined: May 02, 2003 Posts: 22711 Location: Still Feelin' the Bern- Once you've felt it you can't un- feel it.
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Posted: Wed Jul 09, 2014 2:21 pm Post subject: |
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Actually, according to the German car makers, silver is more recommended than Platinum- Platinum plugs just don't mix well with Bosch systems. They foul easily, and once fouled tend to stay fouled.
The other problem that needs to be pointed out in addition to modern ignition systems is modern replacement parts for older systems. Everything is resisted- rotors, wires, plugs. This wasn't the case when these cars were new, though. This is why Mercedes keeps re- issuing service bulletins about using NONRESISTOR plugs on their cars from the mid nineties back, and, in my experience, our cars run the best with non resistor plugs, too.
Don't forget that, in addition to an older ignition system, our cars also run generators- thus, the less resistance in the ignition system, the better.
Platinum plugs are an additional curse to all this. No matter what anyone tells you, if you run plats in your ACVW, you WILL have runability issues.
You need a very strong spark to jump the gap in your combustion chamber. Don't put 50 roadblocks in the way of that and then complain that the damn car won't run right! _________________ Немає виправдання для війни! Я з Україною.
Bryan67 wrote: |
Just my hands. And a little lube. No tools. |
To best contact me, please use the EMAIL function in my profile |
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raygreenwood Samba Member
Joined: November 24, 2008 Posts: 21510 Location: Oklahoma City
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Posted: Wed Jul 09, 2014 4:27 pm Post subject: |
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Tram wrote: |
Actually, according to the German car makers, silver is more recommended than Platinum- Platinum plugs just don't mix well with Bosch systems. They foul easily, and once fouled tend to stay fouled.
The other problem that needs to be pointed out in addition to modern ignition systems is modern replacement parts for older systems. Everything is resisted- rotors, wires, plugs. This wasn't the case when these cars were new, though. This is why Mercedes keeps re- issuing service bulletins about using NONRESISTOR plugs on their cars from the mid nineties back, and, in my experience, our cars run the best with non resistor plugs, too.
Don't forget that, in addition to an older ignition system, our cars also run generators- thus, the less resistance in the ignition system, the better.
Platinum plugs are an additional curse to all this. No matter what anyone tells you, if you run plats in your ACVW, you WILL have runability issues.
You need a very strong spark to jump the gap in your combustion chamber. Don't put 50 roadblocks in the way of that and then complain that the damn car won't run right! |
Yes....I almost forgot....Silver (should remember this i print silver circuits almost every week)....is the best conductor. In fact...I have used a few sets of Bosch "Silber" plugs on certain cars and they were excellent.
The only problem with silver is that its temperature resistance is not as high as iridium and its fairly soft and susceptible to hot gas erosion....else we would all be using silver in all our plugs. A fair few high performance cars still do. ray |
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periscopebill Samba Member
Joined: May 17, 2013 Posts: 148 Location: Brooklyn
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Posted: Mon Jul 14, 2014 6:26 am Post subject: |
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So I swapped out the platinum plugs this weekend for NGKs. It didn't seem to make much of a difference. Checked timing, dwell which were both dead on, and backed down the idle which had wandered kind of high again.
Over the last couple days the starting has changed as well, both with the plat plugs and the ngks. It no longer takes a couple attempts to start, but instead just takes a really looong time cranking to get the engine to catch. It sounds like it's almost skipping firing somewhere and then it'll turn over and catch.
Also over the last day or two I've found when first driving, when the car is still warming up, and I pull up to a stop light it takes the idle takes a while to recover back down where it should be. It sounds like the accelerator pedal is stuck, but it's not. After it's warmed up it goes away.
Here's a pics of the plat plugs, not sure if they indicate part of the problem with firing, at least upon start up? 3 looks totally untouched which is probably not good?
1&2
3&4
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Bobnotch Samba Member
Joined: July 06, 2003 Posts: 22407 Location: Kimball, Mi
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Posted: Mon Jul 14, 2014 10:36 am Post subject: |
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periscopebill wrote: |
Over the last couple days the starting has changed as well, both with the plat plugs and the ngks. It no longer takes a couple attempts to start, but instead just takes a really looong time cranking to get the engine to catch. It sounds like it's almost skipping firing somewhere and then it'll turn over and catch.
Also over the last day or two I've found when first driving, when the car is still warming up, and I pull up to a stop light it takes the idle takes a while to recover back down where it should be. It sounds like the accelerator pedal is stuck, but it's not. After it's warmed up it goes away. |
You might try cycling the key on and off a few times before actually starting the car (this primes the fuel ring). In the morning, when trying to do the initial start up, when you turn the key on, you might want to listen to the fuel pump relay clicking on, then off, and try cycling the key on again, then cycle the key on again repeating this process 4 or 5 times before engaging the starter. This fills the fuel lines, and builds fuel pressure to help make it easier to start the engine. My wife's 70 Fastback is like this as well, but I just haven't bothered getting Jim's primer kit yet, as it's not really a big deal once you know what's going on. Try it, as you don't have anything to loose, but a minute or so in the morning (it also doesn't cost any money).
What's really going on, is that the fuel system is bleeding down over night, and it takes more than the 2 seconds of pump running to "recharge" the fuel lines.
This sounds like the AAR is still closing while you're driving off, as once warmed up everything returns to normal. Usually that closing time is about 5 minutes. You just might be not letting it warm up enough before leaving. I hope this helps. _________________ Bob 65 Notch S with Sunroof
71 Notch ...aka Krunchy; build pics here;
http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=249390 -been busy working
64 T-34 Ghia...aka Wolfie, under construction... http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=412120
Tram wrote: |
"Friends are God's way of apologizing for relatives." |
Tram wrote: |
People keep confusing "restored" and "restroyed". |
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eyetzr Samba Member
Joined: October 09, 2013 Posts: 1425 Location: Toronto, Ontario. Canada
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Posted: Mon Jul 14, 2014 10:55 am Post subject: |
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Are you gapping these plugs before you put them in? 1&2 look wet & rich, 3 looks almost lean & 4 looks sorta okay. I am not a fuel injected person ( although I am reading more on it) but plugs I have paid attention to. Did the plat plugs look similar to these? |
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periscopebill Samba Member
Joined: May 17, 2013 Posts: 148 Location: Brooklyn
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Posted: Mon Jul 14, 2014 12:35 pm Post subject: |
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Bobnotch wrote: |
You might try cycling the key on and off a few times before actually starting the car (this primes the fuel ring). In the morning, when trying to do the initial start up, when you turn the key on, you might want to listen to the fuel pump relay clicking on, then off, and try cycling the key on again, then cycle the key on again repeating this process 4 or 5 times before engaging the starter. This fills the fuel lines, and builds fuel pressure to help make it easier to start the engine. My wife's 70 Fastback is like this as well, but I just haven't bothered getting Jim's primer kit yet, as it's not really a big deal once you know what's going on. Try it, as you don't have anything to loose, but a minute or so in the morning (it also doesn't cost any money).
What's really going on, is that the fuel system is bleeding down over night, and it takes more than the 2 seconds of pump running to "recharge" the fuel lines.
This sounds like the AAR is still closing while you're driving off, as once warmed up everything returns to normal. Usually that closing time is about 5 minutes. You just might be not letting it warm up enough before leaving. I hope this helps. |
Thanks Bobnotch, sorry I should've clarified, this startup stuff that's been happening is whats happening even with cycling the key 4/5 times. Good to know on the AAR, usually it'll go into a high idle then drops down after 2-3 minutes and that's when I head out. I'll give it a few more minutes!
eyetzr wrote: |
Are you gapping these plugs before you put them in? 1&2 look wet & rich, 3 looks almost lean & 4 looks sorta okay. I am not a fuel injected person ( although I am reading more on it) but plugs I have paid attention to. Did the plat plugs look similar to these? |
Eyetzr, yes plugs were gapped to .028. These are the pictures of the plat plugs, so this is after about 3 weeks of driving. |
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D/A/N Samba Member
Joined: August 13, 2010 Posts: 2227 Location: 11222
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Posted: Tue Jul 15, 2014 5:02 am Post subject: |
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Pulling spark plugs in the July heat and wondering why one side looks almost fouled and the other lean reminds me so very much of our work 2 summers ago. I also remember getting to this point where it seemed like everything was slowly falling apart......we'd advance one day and three days later the car wouldn't start because a random connector would decide to spite us by spontaneously disintegrating.
As far as I remember, you've pretty much nailed the valves, dwell, timing, and fuel pressure and gotten them spot on.....In other words, all the non-FI stuff is verified, so I wonder if it's time to start looking at parts of the FI system more closely?
When we were having cylinder or side specific problems, I remember looking at these things which you may or may not have gotten to yet.
--one stupid thing to just make 100% sure of is that all of your parts are correct. We have a "B" system but a few weeks after we got the car, we realized we had a "D" ECU but all "B" parts and that didn't help. Like I said, it's unlikely you have a mix up but it doesn't hurt to check.
--is the ground for the 1/2 injectors clean and secure?
--is the ground wire for those injectors cracked, frayed, or otherwise not quite right?
--are the connectors from the harness to the 1/2 injectors tight and are the wires clean?
--are there any repairs in the harness that could be causing too much/not enough resistance along the way?
--have you checked the spray patterns of those two injectors?
--have you checked the resistance of the injectors themselves? |
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Mike Fisher Samba Member
Joined: January 30, 2006 Posts: 17969 Location: Eugene, OR
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Posted: Tue Jul 15, 2014 6:15 am Post subject: |
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If you had the fuel primer button that Jim Adney sent you installed that would eliminate cycling your key. My primer button is supposed to arrive tomorrow. _________________ https://imgur.com/user/FisherSquareback/posts
69 FI/AT square Daily Driver
66 sunroof,67,70,71,71,71AT,72,72AT,73 Parts
two 57 oval ragtops sold
'68 Karmann Ghia sold
Society is like stew. If you don't keep it stirred up you end up with a lot of scum on the top! - Russ_Wolfe/Edward Abbey |
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