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Forrest67 Samba Member
Joined: June 28, 2014 Posts: 14 Location: United States
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Posted: Sun Jun 29, 2014 12:45 pm Post subject: 1967 Karmann Ghia Coupe - Rolling Rebuild |
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Alright, so after reading this forum for the past few months, I finally decided to create an account.
This is not my first VW, but it will be my first complete rebuild! I know, this will be an extreme challenge, as it is my daily driver, and there is no way around that. I bought the Ghia back in the beginning of April 2014. Just a few weeks prior to this post, I fixed up the engine and got her running real smooth. Are there problems? You had better bet on that one
These are pictures taken before I purchased the car. The beast in it's natural habitat..
Since then, I've replaced the tires, complete rebuild on the engine/carburetor, lined the gas tank with red kote, and replaced the shocks.
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Northof49 Samba Member
Joined: July 22, 2013 Posts: 1759 Location: Winnipeg, Manitoba, Canada
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Posted: Sun Jun 29, 2014 12:50 pm Post subject: |
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Looks like a good starting point. Is the body as solid as it appears? _________________ 1958 Karmann Ghia owner |
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Forrest67 Samba Member
Joined: June 28, 2014 Posts: 14 Location: United States
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Posted: Sun Jun 29, 2014 1:00 pm Post subject: |
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Bear with me! There are too many problems and I don't know how to organize them.. after this initial section, everything else will be smooth.
I've noticed I'm missing a rear torsion cover plate on the left side. Also, when sitting on level ground, with the front beam on jackstands and the rear on a jack (on the transmission mount), the right jackstand has a whole inch of clearance before touching the torsion tube (I can't recall the name), whereas the left jackstand has only a half inch. The jack is centered, and the front beam is level. Is my chassis torqued so the rear left is sagging so much?
When sitting on the ground, the front right raises up and the back left sags. Looking from the back or front of the car, the right side sits higher than the left.
I'll have pictures later today on that.
The left side of the body, where the heater channel meets the pan, is pushed in, making it so the body wont actually remove. I've tried beating the living daylight out of it with a sledgehammer to no avail. (Note the body to chassis holes on the left side versus the right side. The body clamps inward on the underside almost a half inch along the entire left side)
Left side:
Right side:
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Forrest67 Samba Member
Joined: June 28, 2014 Posts: 14 Location: United States
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Posted: Sun Jun 29, 2014 1:02 pm Post subject: |
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Quote: |
Looks like a good starting point. Is the body as solid as it appears? |
The body is in fairly great condition. Check out my gallery for all the pictures. Rust in the front right behind the wheel wells. Rust on battery tray. And lastly, rust on the pan and that's it.. so far. The nose also has a bit of damage. |
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Forrest67 Samba Member
Joined: June 28, 2014 Posts: 14 Location: United States
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Posted: Sun Jun 29, 2014 6:28 pm Post subject: |
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I'm not sure how to remove the body. I have taken out all the bolts on the bottom running along both sides. The four bolts on the front, two to each side. I've taken out the two that are in rear wheel well and two in the trunk (front). Inside the car, I've removed four bolts along the back. I tried checking under the goop, but there are no bolts.. only a circle plate which seems to do nothing.
I've double checked to see that every single bolt is removed, but I still can not get the body to budge even the slightest bit from any corner of the vehicle.
What am I missing? |
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CiderGuy Samba Member
Joined: December 23, 2013 Posts: 1351 Location: Bucks County, Pa
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Posted: Sun Jun 29, 2014 7:12 pm Post subject: |
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Procedure for Removing the Body from the Pan
Ghias through the mid-60 model year used 14mm ATF body bolts, while later cars used 13mm bolts.
Remove the battery
Disconnect fuel gauge wiring from fuel tank, or the mechanical fuel sender connection if equipped
Unbolt and remove the fuel tank (4-bolts).
Disconnect steering shaft from the steering coupler (2-bolts).
Unbolt body from the beam connection bolts under fuel tank (2-bolts).
Disconnect brake fluid reservoir to master cylinder hose connections. Be careful not to spill brake fluid, as it will strip paint.
Disconnect electrical connections to master cylinder – brake lights, dash dummy light.
On 55-60 Ghias, close the fuel tap and remove the cotter pin attaching the tap to the operating rod.
On 55-60 Ghias, disconnect the choke cable at the carburetor.
Remove the Front Seats
Remove Gear Shifter
Under back seat:
Remove the body to tunnel cross rail bolts (4-bolts). Pre-’69 (swing-axle) cars have additional body bolts on the outer edges of the cross rail. Look for spots where massive amounts of factory-applied undercoating exist. Probe under this stub for the bolts.
FOR CONVERTIBLES: Remove the additional 2-bolts (one on either side) of the luggage tray. Click on this link to see their location: http://www.geocities.com/gscurtis/hiddenbolts.jpg
Disconnect rear foot well heater louvers from the cable. (Cable comes out of tunnel.)
If your car has a gas heater, disconnect the relay from the wiring harness.
·Temporarily remove rear wheels.
Remove wheel-well to rear frame bolts. (1 per side – they’re often covered in crud and hard to even see. Soak with PBlaster first)
Reinstall the rear wheels.
Under car:
Disconnect the back up light switch pick-up from the transmission (if your car is equipped with backup lights, 1967+)
Remove the heat exchanger to heater channel hoses.
At the front driver’s wheel, disconnect the speedometer cable and pull it out of the front hub assembly and into the trunk.
Remove the pan to heater channel bolts (9-per side, 14mm)
Remove the forward bulkhead bolts, located aft of the frame head (4-bolts, 17mm)
Engine compartment:
Disconnect all electrical connections from the wiring harness to engine: starter coil lead, etc.
If your car has a gas heater, there may be some extra steps associated with this. There were several gas heater makes through the years.
If you plan to rebuild your engine during your restoration, removing the engine before lifting the body would be a good idea.
Make sure all bolts and wires are clear. Grab one fender of the vehicle and lift. The pan gasket can be stubborn, but use the weight of the car to break the seal. Two people with a lot of ‘grunt power’ can remove the body from the pan; however, either four people total or an overhead hoist will work better.
DO NOT lift the body by running a strap through the interior and around the roof. This will distort and twist the roof. Run straps under the wheel-well areas. |
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Forrest67 Samba Member
Joined: June 28, 2014 Posts: 14 Location: United States
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Posted: Sun Jun 29, 2014 9:39 pm Post subject: |
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I followed that list to a t. Used that as a checklist before coming on here for help.. I'm at a loss for this. |
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jwold Samba Member
Joined: September 30, 2008 Posts: 2088 Location: Portland, OR
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Posted: Sun Jun 29, 2014 11:11 pm Post subject: |
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67 had that little shock absorber (sorry not sure what it's called, anti-sway bushings?) that attached to the swing axle. You have to remove that as well. there are little rubber dust covers, don't bother clamping some vice grips on the post, just pop the covers off, I think it's 2 little 13 mm nuts holding the thing in lace. Those were the last 2 things that gave me issues with my 67 removal.
This assumes that the body is free from the pan or is all of this done and the body still isn't budging?
Maybe your body to pan seal is still just really sticky, or possibly your body was welded to the pan. |
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Forrest67 Samba Member
Joined: June 28, 2014 Posts: 14 Location: United States
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Posted: Thu Jul 23, 2015 2:36 am Post subject: |
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Post Revival! It's been a while, had other hings to tend to. Finally figured out issue with her. The bent heater channel on the drivers side is locking the body to the pan, I'm not sure how to remove the body without totally damaging the channel (probably getting replaced, but I want it to still be aligned without torquing the body). I'm doing a chassis up rebuild currently so the body will be coming off. |
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c21darrel Samba Member
Joined: January 22, 2009 Posts: 8206 Location: San Dimas
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Forrest67 Samba Member
Joined: June 28, 2014 Posts: 14 Location: United States
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Posted: Thu Jul 23, 2015 11:28 am Post subject: |
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Okay! So here's a pic of what you were mentioning.
I have the four bolts along the cross trail, under the rear bench. I tried looking for two bolts under putty but never found them. Z-bar disconnected (still in but freed from chassis). I can lift the front up and the right rear. The left lifts, but it sounds/feels like it's binding (with the pan). Will try to bend it out today. I'm going to straighten the body before bolting the two together again!
Current progress before removing body
Here's where she's at with everything torn out! And the pretty original blue, which will be going BACK on once the body is ready to be painted.
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djway3474 Samba Member
Joined: August 19, 2011 Posts: 2576 Location: The Real NDK So Cal
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Posted: Thu Jul 23, 2015 2:10 pm Post subject: |
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I could not separate my body and pan until I bought a cheap painters knife, similar to putty knife, and tapped it between the body and the seal. After working enough of it the body lifted right off. Good luck. |
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c21darrel Samba Member
Joined: January 22, 2009 Posts: 8206 Location: San Dimas
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Forrest67 Samba Member
Joined: June 28, 2014 Posts: 14 Location: United States
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Posted: Fri Jul 24, 2015 2:42 pm Post subject: |
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Sweet! Finally got the body off. Took four moderately strong guys. Now comes the easy part of rebuilding the chassis. I'll start with removing everything, grinding it down and painting with primer and paint. Also checking the condition of the pan and determining whether it needs to be replaced or if I can scape by with welding up holes. Here's some pics for now:
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Forrest67 Samba Member
Joined: June 28, 2014 Posts: 14 Location: United States
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Posted: Mon Jul 27, 2015 10:28 am Post subject: |
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Making progress! Found some intense rust on the drivers side..
The next few days I'll be taking an angle grinder to the pan, removing rust. Get everything prepped for paint. Just waiting on the pan replacement for drivers side
Here's the transfer, and the axles.. Haha
Also, I found a crack on the framehead where the front beam mounts. Just going to weld it, going to check the extent of it further, after removing the front beam.
[/b] |
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motorhead364 Samba Member
Joined: November 04, 2008 Posts: 715 Location: Amarillo Texas
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Posted: Tue Jul 28, 2015 1:19 pm Post subject: |
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Looking good. There's always more rust than you expect. I'm sure Darrel or someone more experienced than me but that's a solid crack in the frame head. I'm wondering if the car was wrecked or a PO hit something hard. You should be fine to weld it back up, maybe a fish plate or two as well. But you probably need to take some measurements while the beam is on to make sure is straight. You'll never get the alignment right if that head is bent back.
Nice project. Good luck. _________________ 63 ghia coupe |
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OLD VW NUT Samba Member
Joined: February 23, 2011 Posts: 2776 Location: High Desert of Washington 98823
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Posted: Tue Jul 28, 2015 7:19 pm Post subject: |
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When I read the thread subject line I was expecting to read about someone attempting a rebuild while driving the car.
This is much better! _________________ 71 Ghia Coupe - stock body - no rust! Powered by a 2110 W/Dual HPMX 44's - Rancho Pro Street Transaxle - A/C by Gilmore
Other car - 2013 VW Golf TDI |
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Angus Dowrie Samba Member
Joined: March 07, 2005 Posts: 341 Location: Kangaroo Point, Australia
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Posted: Tue Jul 28, 2015 8:01 pm Post subject: |
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motorhead364 wrote: |
Looking good. There's always more rust than you expect. I'm sure Darrel or someone more experienced than me but that's a solid crack in the frame head. I'm wondering if the car was wrecked or a PO hit something hard. You should be fine to weld it back up, maybe a fish plate or two as well. But you probably need to take some measurements while the beam is on to make sure is straight. You'll never get the alignment right if that head is bent back.
Nice project. Good luck. |
+1 on taking some measurements with the beam on.
You want to take some diagonal measurements from fixed points front and back as far from the central axis of the car (the centre of the tunnel essentially). The wider you go the more any misalignment of the frame head will show up, so it makes less significant any small measurement errors.
Pick a point like the right front shock tower and take it back to the left rear corner of the floorpan. Do the same check opposite hand and see what you come up with. They should be the same.
If you do end up weld repairing this framehead, you'll want to do the same checks again, as the welding can pull it out of alignment also. |
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Forrest67 Samba Member
Joined: June 28, 2014 Posts: 14 Location: United States
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Posted: Wed Jul 29, 2015 12:11 am Post subject: |
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Old VW Nut! I was originally doing that, however that is no longer the case, thankfully!
Motorhead, thank you for pointing that out. I did not think about it affecting he alignment.. I will definitely do that before welding up.
Angus Dowrie, you're talking about basically placing a string on the center o the front beam, going back towards the back of the chassis, and then OUT to either side l, maybe 10 feet...from the conference of the vehicle? Then measure with a protractor per set I'm not quite following.
EDIT: you mean as far from the center of the beam and measure the angle from the outside of the beam to a fixed point in the center/rear of the chassis! |
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Angus Dowrie Samba Member
Joined: March 07, 2005 Posts: 341 Location: Kangaroo Point, Australia
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Posted: Wed Jul 29, 2015 2:18 am Post subject: |
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Forrest67 wrote: |
Old VW Nut! I was originally doing that, however that is no longer the case, thankfully!
Motorhead, thank you for pointing that out. I did not think about it affecting he alignment.. I will definitely do that before welding up.
Angus Dowrie, you're talking about basically placing a string on the center o the front beam, going back towards the back of the chassis, and then OUT to either side l, maybe 10 feet...from the conference of the vehicle? Then measure with a protractor per set I'm not quite following.
EDIT: you mean as far from the center of the beam and measure the angle from the outside of the beam to a fixed point in the center/rear of the chassis! |
If I was a bit more skilled with photoshop I'd mark it out on a photo for you, but I'll see if I can explain it in words.
What you want to know is if your frame head is bent. If it is no longer square, your beam will not be square to your car, which can lead to things like poor tracking, incorrect wheel alignments etc etc.
if you drew a square on a bit of paper and measured the diagonals, they would be equal. You want to do a similar thing on your car. You could measure from the frame head back on either side, but it would have to be quite bad to pick it up, as there will always be a small measurement error. By using the beam or any straight edge against the frame head, think of the ends of the beam as two of the corners of the square. Go as far out from the centre of the car as possible, just pick a point that you can replicate on the other side.
Now you have your transmission out, so to find the other two corners of your 'square', the best thing is probably the rear corner of the floor pan.
So you have your front corners and your rear corners. Measure from the left front to the rear right, your tape will cross over the tunnel somewhere around the gear stick. Make sure it's not snagged on anything. Do a check measure and write it down. Then do the same from right front to left rear, and compare the two readings. If they are the same, you're sweet. If not, don't assume the worst, double check you are measuring correctly from equivalent points either side.
If they are still out by more than a couple of mm, you probably need to get it looked at by an expert. I don't know what an acceptable tolerance would be, it's not my area of expertise.
If it is ok, do the weld repair and check the diagonals again afterwards, as the welding can pull the frame head a little.
Let me know if that makes sense, and maybe someone else reading it with any photoshop skills can show it on a photo.
Given it has had a hit, you shouldn't assume your beam is straight either, although they are pretty tough.
Edit after a nights sleep..... It is probably better to use a reference point at the end of the rear torsion bar tube rather than the floor pan for your back corners. It is more directly related to the positioning of your rear wheels. |
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