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vwwestyman
Samba Member
Joined: April 24, 2004
Posts: 5688
Location: Manhattan, Kansas, USA
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 Posted: Mon Jul 07, 2014 10:45 am Post subject: |
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I'm going to quote what the PO told me about the rebuild and engine. He joined the forum for at least notifying the Wild Westerner thread about the bus, so perhaps he'll be able to chime in on helpful info as we try to figure out where to go with this engine. The quotes are coming from a couple emails and PMs between us. Hopefully it'll shed a little light on what is going on.
He asked for updates on the bus as I go along, so I'll send him links to the threads and ask for him to chime in.
| CraigTee wrote: |
That was a new cam. I wouldn't have bothered using a mic and a dial
indicator to check the old cam when new ones were so cheap. Remember
that I dumped over a grand into that rebuild... [Dave says: remember this was in 1992 ish so that grand went further than now!] I think the only
differences in the LATER "late cams" came when they went to the auto
trans(?) and hydraulic lifters(?). I can find runout and and
backlash specs, but no rise and duration specs on the cams.
Hydraulics started in '78 can't remember the first year of the auto
(also '78?).
Now... the one I sent you MIGHT be a 1.7L OR 2.0L engine. I had
both sitting around and just grabbed the first one I saw and sent it
to you. I believe they're the same cam tho.... |
| CraigTee wrote: |
When I get a vehicle, I start a book on it.... I keep track of dates, mileage, repairs (as best I can remember to), every drop of gas, oil changes, oh... just ETC! You are getting this book in a folder along with ALL the paperwork I remembered to keep on parts and repairs.
I did the engine around '91 or so (this is from memory) and drove it til around '02. In that time it toured Yellowstone Park and all kinds of other outdoor areas.
Around '02 I was driving it into town and it simply quit... went totally dead. Towed it home and started troubleshooting. No fuel. Ok.... fuel rod or pump. Nope. Got suspicious. Popped the valve cover cover and turned it over.... no valve movement.
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| CraigTee wrote: |
I bought the bus around 1988 or so, third owner. The first owner was the dad of a watchmaker friend of mine here in Roseburg Oregon. I didn't know that until after I had bought it from the second owner.
I bought it for my sister to drive while I rebuilt her small block Chevy. When I got it back, she had fried a valve so I got to do another engine. It was my first VW engine and I instantly fell in love with the machined parts. Total class.
I got carried away with the engine rebuild and put over $1000 into it. All new everything. Put a 2 liter crank, rods, jugs, and heads into it along with a Weber 34/36 progressive and an 051 Bosch distributor (the one for the pancake engine that doesn't retard #3).
Used the original case so it's all matching numbers. Nice for restoration/value. Have all the original parts... heads, carbs, etc.... plus a TON of extra parts taken from the engine donor rig, a 1976 (I believe) bus.
No body cancer at all... we don't salt roads here, we gravel them. Seat covers are original... ie.... trash. Paint is original... ie.... hurting. (though it DOES still shine up nice... go figure...) It's all complete, down to the original owners manual and some other paperwork I think. Four or five body issues... I'll photograph them after I clean the moss off it. Original weather stripping... needs replacement.
I really don't think ANYTHING is missing.... It doesn't run. I put a camshaft with a soft magnesium gear on it and must have missed a burr on the crank gear because it stripped the cam gear. I had the crank gear transferred from the old 1700cc crank to the new 2000cc crank. He didn't do a great job.... Sad [Dave says: We know that this wasn't quite the case, the failure was the cam breaking!] |
_________________
Dave Cook
President, Wild Westerner Club
1978 Champagne Edition Westy, repowered to '97 Jetta TDI
1973 Wild Westerner
My Thing |
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vwwestyman
Samba Member
Joined: April 24, 2004
Posts: 5688
Location: Manhattan, Kansas, USA
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vwwestyman
Samba Member
Joined: April 24, 2004
Posts: 5688
Location: Manhattan, Kansas, USA
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| Posted: Mon Jul 07, 2014 10:52 am Post subject: |
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| busdaddy wrote: |
How do the teeth on the gear look?, I wonder if someone used an oversized cam gear for that case (no backlash) and the constant pressure broke the cam?, but the bearing isn't worn more on the bottom, hmmmm...... Or maybe the cam was dropped on it's gear last time it was out?, any old varnish filled marks on the edge of the gear that look like road rash? |
The teeth on the cam gear appear chewed along the edge, and uniformly on all the teeth.
The teeth on the crank gear look fine, thankfully.
I've thought about the ovalness of the rivit holes, and I'm not sure what I think-whether they were wallowed out or originally oval for adjusting somehow.
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Dave Cook
President, Wild Westerner Club
1978 Champagne Edition Westy, repowered to '97 Jetta TDI
1973 Wild Westerner
My Thing |
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rustybutterknife
Samba Member
Joined: June 06, 2003
Posts: 488
Location: Georgetown, IN
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| Posted: Mon Jul 07, 2014 11:10 am Post subject: |
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| vwwestyman wrote: |
I'm going to quote what the PO told me about the rebuild and engine. He joined the forum for at least notifying the Wild Westerner thread about the bus, so perhaps he'll be able to chime in on helpful info as we try to figure out where to go with this engine. The quotes are coming from a couple emails and PMs between us. Hopefully it'll shed a little light on what is going on.
He asked for updates on the bus as I go along, so I'll send him links to the threads and ask for him to chime in.
| CraigTee wrote: |
That was a new cam. I wouldn't have bothered using a mic and a dial
indicator to check the old cam when new ones were so cheap. Remember
that I dumped over a grand into that rebuild... [Dave says: remember this was in 1992 ish so that grand went further than now!] I think the only
differences in the LATER "late cams" came when they went to the auto
trans(?) and hydraulic lifters(?). I can find runout and and
backlash specs, but no rise and duration specs on the cams.
Hydraulics started in '78 can't remember the first year of the auto
(also '78?).
Now... the one I sent you MIGHT be a 1.7L OR 2.0L engine. I had
both sitting around and just grabbed the first one I saw and sent it
to you. I believe they're the same cam tho.... |
| CraigTee wrote: |
When I get a vehicle, I start a book on it.... I keep track of dates, mileage, repairs (as best I can remember to), every drop of gas, oil changes, oh... just ETC! You are getting this book in a folder along with ALL the paperwork I remembered to keep on parts and repairs.
I did the engine around '91 or so (this is from memory) and drove it til around '02. In that time it toured Yellowstone Park and all kinds of other outdoor areas.
Around '02 I was driving it into town and it simply quit... went totally dead. Towed it home and started troubleshooting. No fuel. Ok.... fuel rod or pump. Nope. Got suspicious. Popped the valve cover cover and turned it over.... no valve movement.
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| CraigTee wrote: |
I bought the bus around 1988 or so, third owner. The first owner was the dad of a watchmaker friend of mine here in Roseburg Oregon. I didn't know that until after I had bought it from the second owner.
I bought it for my sister to drive while I rebuilt her small block Chevy. When I got it back, she had fried a valve so I got to do another engine. It was my first VW engine and I instantly fell in love with the machined parts. Total class.
I got carried away with the engine rebuild and put over $1000 into it. All new everything. Put a 2 liter crank, rods, jugs, and heads into it along with a Weber 34/36 progressive and an 051 Bosch distributor (the one for the pancake engine that doesn't retard #3).
Used the original case so it's all matching numbers. Nice for restoration/value. Have all the original parts... heads, carbs, etc.... plus a TON of extra parts taken from the engine donor rig, a 1976 (I believe) bus.
No body cancer at all... we don't salt roads here, we gravel them. Seat covers are original... ie.... trash. Paint is original... ie.... hurting. (though it DOES still shine up nice... go figure...) It's all complete, down to the original owners manual and some other paperwork I think. Four or five body issues... I'll photograph them after I clean the moss off it. Original weather stripping... needs replacement.
I really don't think ANYTHING is missing.... It doesn't run. I put a camshaft with a soft magnesium gear on it and must have missed a burr on the crank gear because it stripped the cam gear. I had the crank gear transferred from the old 1700cc crank to the new 2000cc crank. He didn't do a great job.... Sad [Dave says: We know that this wasn't quite the case, the failure was the cam breaking!] |
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there's your answer! rivets left too tall and smacked pump. loosened and worked cam until it snapped. whoever re-geared that cam would be at fault. looks like you have more than enough parts to get a good start for rebuild though.
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What, they don't sell purple locktite? Just mix the red and the blue together. |
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raygreenwood
Samba Member
Joined: November 24, 2008
Posts: 21512
Location: Oklahoma City
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| Posted: Mon Jul 07, 2014 11:44 am Post subject: |
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| rustybutterknife wrote: |
| vwwestyman wrote: |
I'm going to quote what the PO told me about the rebuild and engine. He joined the forum for at least notifying the Wild Westerner thread about the bus, so perhaps he'll be able to chime in on helpful info as we try to figure out where to go with this engine. The quotes are coming from a couple emails and PMs between us. Hopefully it'll shed a little light on what is going on.
He asked for updates on the bus as I go along, so I'll send him links to the threads and ask for him to chime in.
| CraigTee wrote: |
That was a new cam. I wouldn't have bothered using a mic and a dial
indicator to check the old cam when new ones were so cheap. Remember
that I dumped over a grand into that rebuild... [Dave says: remember this was in 1992 ish so that grand went further than now!] I think the only
differences in the LATER "late cams" came when they went to the auto
trans(?) and hydraulic lifters(?). I can find runout and and
backlash specs, but no rise and duration specs on the cams.
Hydraulics started in '78 can't remember the first year of the auto
(also '78?).
Now... the one I sent you MIGHT be a 1.7L OR 2.0L engine. I had
both sitting around and just grabbed the first one I saw and sent it
to you. I believe they're the same cam tho.... |
| CraigTee wrote: |
When I get a vehicle, I start a book on it.... I keep track of dates, mileage, repairs (as best I can remember to), every drop of gas, oil changes, oh... just ETC! You are getting this book in a folder along with ALL the paperwork I remembered to keep on parts and repairs.
I did the engine around '91 or so (this is from memory) and drove it til around '02. In that time it toured Yellowstone Park and all kinds of other outdoor areas.
Around '02 I was driving it into town and it simply quit... went totally dead. Towed it home and started troubleshooting. No fuel. Ok.... fuel rod or pump. Nope. Got suspicious. Popped the valve cover cover and turned it over.... no valve movement.
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| CraigTee wrote: |
I bought the bus around 1988 or so, third owner. The first owner was the dad of a watchmaker friend of mine here in Roseburg Oregon. I didn't know that until after I had bought it from the second owner.
I bought it for my sister to drive while I rebuilt her small block Chevy. When I got it back, she had fried a valve so I got to do another engine. It was my first VW engine and I instantly fell in love with the machined parts. Total class.
I got carried away with the engine rebuild and put over $1000 into it. All new everything. Put a 2 liter crank, rods, jugs, and heads into it along with a Weber 34/36 progressive and an 051 Bosch distributor (the one for the pancake engine that doesn't retard #3).
Used the original case so it's all matching numbers. Nice for restoration/value. Have all the original parts... heads, carbs, etc.... plus a TON of extra parts taken from the engine donor rig, a 1976 (I believe) bus.
No body cancer at all... we don't salt roads here, we gravel them. Seat covers are original... ie.... trash. Paint is original... ie.... hurting. (though it DOES still shine up nice... go figure...) It's all complete, down to the original owners manual and some other paperwork I think. Four or five body issues... I'll photograph them after I clean the moss off it. Original weather stripping... needs replacement.
I really don't think ANYTHING is missing.... It doesn't run. I put a camshaft with a soft magnesium gear on it and must have missed a burr on the crank gear because it stripped the cam gear. I had the crank gear transferred from the old 1700cc crank to the new 2000cc crank. He didn't do a great job.... Sad [Dave says: We know that this wasn't quite the case, the failure was the cam breaking!] |
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there's your answer! rivets left too tall and smacked pump. loosened and worked cam until it snapped. whoever re-geared that cam would be at fault. looks like you have more than enough parts to get a good start for rebuild though. |
Yep.....I knew that was what happened. The history on the new gear was just icing on the cake.
There are other minor issues. There is no doubt that the PO took as much time and care as he could......but $1000 even in 1992.....would only be a refurb.....basic. Prime quality P&C sets even in 1992 were $250 average. Basic valve job with little replaced was avg $125 per head. A stock. vw cam....more expensive even in those days to an aftermarket cam.....about $175. Seal set....about $55...rod rebuild about $25 a rod with bolts in thoze days. Basic balance about $90. Odds and ends with no other machine work and parts....about $50.....so thats your 1992 1k rebuild.
I notice some of the valves are new and some are vw. Chances are springs and seats are as well.
The best de al in town is a Raby valve train kit. Ray |
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busdaddy
Samba Member
Joined: February 12, 2004
Posts: 51125
Location: Surrey B.C. Canada, but thinking of Ukraine
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| Posted: Mon Jul 07, 2014 11:49 am Post subject: |
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| rustybutterknife wrote: |
| vwwestyman wrote: |
Camshaft gear pics:
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is it just me or does it look like the "slots" that others mentioned here appear to not be "cut" into the gear, but rather "worn" into the gear. look at the profile created by the rivet heads as they worked across the surface. that would not have been machined that way. The shape of the slots also, to me, looks deformed. |
That's what I'm thinking, must have been one hell of a noisy engine, click-clack-click-clack...........
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vwwestyman
Samba Member
Joined: April 24, 2004
Posts: 5688
Location: Manhattan, Kansas, USA
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| Posted: Mon Jul 07, 2014 11:53 am Post subject: |
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| rustybutterknife wrote: |
| CraigTee wrote: |
I really don't think ANYTHING is missing.... It doesn't run. I put a camshaft with a soft magnesium gear on it and must have missed a burr on the crank gear because it stripped the cam gear. I had the crank gear transferred from the old 1700cc crank to the new 2000cc crank. He didn't do a great job.... Sad [Dave says: We know that this wasn't quite the case, the failure was the cam breaking!] |
there's your answer! rivets left too tall and smacked pump. loosened and worked cam until it snapped. whoever re-geared that cam would be at fault. looks like you have more than enough parts to get a good start for rebuild though. |
Wait, he is talking about the crank gear (that drives the cam off the crank), not the cam gear. He installed a new cam. How would the possibility of the crank gear maybe not being installed well result in the cam gear contacting the pump?
CraigTee's comments were made before I had the bus, or the engine out. That part was speculation.
_________________
Dave Cook
President, Wild Westerner Club
1978 Champagne Edition Westy, repowered to '97 Jetta TDI
1973 Wild Westerner
My Thing |
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williamM
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Joined: August 07, 2008
Posts: 4333
Location: southwest Arizona
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| Posted: Mon Jul 07, 2014 11:56 am Post subject: |
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Very interesting - You are right to trust the T-4 block. But that said- measure any way- About the pins? a good tight line bore would hold those bearings- but it looks like at least one has spun. Valves look long in the tooth and new heads or seats may be in order. Check your intake valves to be sure nobody cut them to 45 degrees- they should be 30. That could account for their looking odd.
About the cam- very odd- but soft gear followed by replacement work using rivets??? Rivets are a science- to tight- they break- to loose - they break- Thats why most cam gear replacements are bolts.
I would pull that oil pump apart and see if a piece of rivet went thru and locked it up. And that oil filter really let you down- there is so much "catchable" crap in that pan??
Show us a pic of those pistons and liners. Would like to see any signs of seizure - if it got that hot and the valve guides grabbed some valves, that could load the cam and gear.- check push rods for bends.- that would be a clue.
Being right in the middle of tearing up the motor, I would take care of that thermostat set up- it has to be in there or you will fry pistons. That design is a diverter system, not a blocking system- when it's cold it diverts the cooling from the oil cooler- when hot it lets it pass- T-1's have blocker plates that stop the cooling flow. Most of those have been removed- but the T-4 are always there as they don't last with out them.
With that much crap in the pan- cleaning will be a problem-might consider pulling galley plugs and use brushes in there. Also make sure the fuel pump rod is in there - even if you are not using it. same goes for that pressure relief piston on that side of the block.
BUT- if you read those books they will tell you all of this. 
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Wildthings
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Joined: March 13, 2005
Posts: 50337
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| Posted: Mon Jul 07, 2014 1:19 pm Post subject: |
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If you look at the recesses around the slotted holes you will see that the recesses are also oblong, yet shows no sign of wear on most of the holes. Those holes were slotted when the rivets were installed, no question at all in my book. I have not idea if this is a modified Type 4 timing gear or is it is a Type 1 gear. Never thought of trying to compare the two. It looks to me like the gear ran skewed for quite a while as the rivets loosen before the final death occurred from the cam breaking.
To the OP, if you look at your intake valves, you will see that one of them looks to be sitting pretty deep in its seat. Maybe this is due to wear, or maybe it is due to a mismatch between the sizes of the valve and seat. |
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raygreenwood
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Joined: November 24, 2008
Posts: 21512
Location: Oklahoma City
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| Posted: Mon Jul 07, 2014 1:38 pm Post subject: |
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| Wildthings wrote: |
If you look at the recesses around the slotted holes you will see that the recesses are also oblong, yet shows no sign of wear on most of the holes. Those holes were slotted when the rivets were installed, no question at all in my book. I have not idea if this is a modified Type 4 timing gear or is it is a Type 1 gear. Never thought of trying to compare the two. It looks to me like the gear ran skewed for quite a while as the rivets loosen before the final death occurred from the cam breaking.
To the OP, if you look at your intake valves, you will see that one of them looks to be sitting pretty deep in its seat. Maybe this is due to wear, or maybe it is due to a mismatch between the sizes of the valve and seat. |
I think you probably are right. It looked to me like the slots were done purposely. If the cam gear were not seated evenly....it would whack one area on the oil pump constantly. That kind of chatter could eventually snap the cam. Also the wear to the cam gear would be telltale. Ray |
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vwwestyman
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Joined: April 24, 2004
Posts: 5688
Location: Manhattan, Kansas, USA
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vwwestyman
Samba Member
Joined: April 24, 2004
Posts: 5688
Location: Manhattan, Kansas, USA
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| Posted: Mon Jul 07, 2014 2:47 pm Post subject: |
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I'll post some pics of the pistons/cylinders etc but my main question at this point is, do ya'll think I can put the replacement cam in with a set of cam and crank bearings, and oil seals, and put the engine back together?
I know I could do a multi-thousand dollar build/rebuild and have a real fancy motor, but in reality, I just want to drive the bus for a couple years while I work towards an engine conversion.
_________________
Dave Cook
President, Wild Westerner Club
1978 Champagne Edition Westy, repowered to '97 Jetta TDI
1973 Wild Westerner
My Thing |
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CraigTee
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Joined: March 09, 2014
Posts: 12
Location: SouthWestern Oregon
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| Posted: Mon Jul 07, 2014 2:54 pm Post subject: |
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| raygreenwood wrote: |
Yep.....I knew that was what happened. The history on the new gear was just icing on the cake.
There are other minor issues. There is no doubt that the PO took as much time and care as he could......but $1000 even in 1992.....would only be a refurb.....basic. Prime quality P&C sets even in 1992 were $250 average. Basic valve job with little replaced was avg $125 per head. A stock. vw cam....more expensive even in those days to an aftermarket cam.....about $175. Seal set....about $55...rod rebuild about $25 a rod with bolts in thoze days. Basic balance about $90. Odds and ends with no other machine work and parts....about $50.....so thats your 1992 1k rebuild.
I notice some of the valves are new and some are vw. Chances are springs and seats are as well.
The best de al in town is a Raby valve train kit. Ray |
LOL!!! OK my friends... I can hold my tongue on all the "PO screwed up here and probably screwed up there too" posts.... since it really WAS my first air cooled build... after building tens of water cooled from all mfgs....
But I won't hold with this one. You, my friend, are totally clueless on this ... you are surmising from YOUR experience and location. As it happens, we had ONE awesome VW (and other imports) supply in town. The owner, Helmut, was retired from Volkswagon and the most respected local authority in town. I spent a LOT of time in that shop, picking brains.
Experienced pro mechanics would come in and ask him questions on their own projects. He always knew the answer.
Every engine part (including gaskets) that went into that engine was OEM (albeit some admittedly Brazilian) or Bosch, Weber etc. NO cheap aftermarket as Helmut wouldn't stock it.
NO... that was NOT simply a refurb. In fact Helmut complimented me on the completeness of that build and my desire to "do it right". EVERYTHING that moved got replaced... and yes... the heads were delivered to the shop Helmut recommended and totally redone. They were CC'd and shimmed upon the build.
The crank was a turned crank, the cam was new, the carb was new, the rockers were new, the push rods were new....
Hell... why am I even going through all this? ALL the receipts are in WWestyman's possession and will back up this post. Included on these receipts are numbers.... if you run those numbers you'll find they're OEM part numbers. BTW: WWestyman took a picture of the VW on the cam, so I don't know how anybody could say it was aftermarket.
Yet... you say that's impossible? You are wrong my friend... it WAS possible because Helmut had a set of ethics unmatched by anybody I'd ever met. His prices for genuine parts were less than online prices for junk parts. Again.... don't believe me... you don't even know me.... but you will have to believe the receipts... 'cause they don't lie. Hey! I still got the boxes those parts came in! Ya want pictures?
WWestyman.... I looked at the photos of that cam... and to me (without the cam in hand!) it appears that the teeth took a beating. You say that the crank gear looks good.... have you cleaned it up and REALLY CAREFULLY examined each tooth under magnification? If I were to guess the cause of this failure, I would be guessing a bad cam/crank tooth mesh causing the cam to move and prematurely wear the cam bearing thrust flange and possibly the elongation of the rivet holes.
But that would just be my guess. For any who wish to know the details.... the bus was cruising along fine at 25-30 mph then experienced a sudden total loss of power. Not accelerating... if anything, decelerating as I was approaching a stop light and was going to turn right.
Ya know... I DO appreciate the assistance that people offer in these forums... some of it is really quite invaluable. But don't tell me what I did or didn't do... you weren't there... I was. Perhaps you "believe" that something is impossible... fine.. believe it all you want... but your belief on that topic does NOT make it fact.
David... I never lied to you on anything. You have all the receipts and I can post pictures of the boxes. Nothing but quality parts went into that build and yes... I spent between $1K to $1.2K on it and if it moved, it got replaced.
Now... did *I* make any errors on the build. Oh... VERY possible. As much time, effort, money and thought that I put into it, it's quite possible I missed something. I don't think you really know an engine until you've built about a dozen or so and had the opportunity to observe their aging. This was my first (and only) VW... but it was a kick! 
Apologies to the group....
sometimes a post just busts my cam gear.....
Craig |
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CraigTee
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Joined: March 09, 2014
Posts: 12
Location: SouthWestern Oregon
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| Posted: Mon Jul 07, 2014 3:29 pm Post subject: |
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Also.... for those guessing that the cam gear was slotted prior to installation... that answer would be a definitive "No". The slots would have shown around the rivet heads. I was VW inexperienced... but not stupid.
For those who noted the wear pattern and attributed it to wear over time? Kudos.
Yes... thinking back... the engine was developing a "ticking" that seemed to be getting louder toward the end of it's life. I was getting ready to check the fuel pump rod to see if it needed replacing. Could've been the cam hitting the pump. Been a lot of years... that's conjecture... |
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raygreenwood
Samba Member
Joined: November 24, 2008
Posts: 21512
Location: Oklahoma City
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| Posted: Mon Jul 07, 2014 3:29 pm Post subject: |
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| CraigTee wrote: |
| raygreenwood wrote: |
Yep.....I knew that was what happened. The history on the new gear was just icing on the cake.
There are other minor issues. There is no doubt that the PO took as much time and care as he could......but $1000 even in 1992.....would only be a refurb.....basic. Prime quality P&C sets even in 1992 were $250 average. Basic valve job with little replaced was avg $125 per head. A stock. vw cam....more expensive even in those days to an aftermarket cam.....about $175. Seal set....about $55...rod rebuild about $25 a rod with bolts in thoze days. Basic balance about $90. Odds and ends with no other machine work and parts....about $50.....so thats your 1992 1k rebuild.
I notice some of the valves are new and some are vw. Chances are springs and seats are as well.
The best de al in town is a Raby valve train kit. Ray |
LOL!!! OK my friends... I can hold my tongue on all the "PO screwed up here and probably screwed up there too" posts.... since it really WAS my first air cooled build... after building tens of water cooled from all mfgs....
But I won't hold with this one. You, my friend, are totally clueless on this ... you are surmising from YOUR experience and location. As it happens, we had ONE awesome VW (and other imports) supply in town. The owner, Helmut, was retired from Volkswagon and the most respected local authority in town. I spent a LOT of time in that shop, picking brains.
Experienced pro mechanics would come in and ask him questions on their own projects. He always knew the answer.
Every engine part (including gaskets) that went into that engine was OEM (albeit some admittedly Brazilian) or Bosch, Weber etc. NO cheap aftermarket as Helmut wouldn't stock it.
NO... that was NOT simply a refurb. In fact Helmut complimented me on the completeness of that build and my desire to "do it right". EVERYTHING that moved got replaced... and yes... the heads were delivered to the shop Helmut recommended and totally redone. They were CC'd and shimmed upon the build.
The crank was a turned crank, the cam was new, the carb was new, the rockers were new, the push rods were new....
Hell... why am I even going through all this? ALL the receipts are in WWestyman's possession and will back up this post. Included on these receipts are numbers.... if you run those numbers you'll find they're OEM part numbers. BTW: WWestyman took a picture of the VW on the cam, so I don't know how anybody could say it was aftermarket.
Yet... you say that's impossible? You are wrong my friend... it WAS possible because Helmut had a set of ethics unmatched by anybody I'd ever met. His prices for genuine parts were less than online prices for junk parts. Again.... don't believe me... you don't even know me.... but you will have to believe the receipts... 'cause they don't lie. Hey! I still got the boxes those parts came in! Ya want pictures?
WWestyman.... I looked at the photos of that cam... and to me (without the cam in hand!) it appears that the teeth took a beating. You say that the crank gear looks good.... have you cleaned it up and REALLY CAREFULLY examined each tooth under magnification? If I were to guess the cause of this failure, I would be guessing a bad cam/crank tooth mesh causing the cam to move and prematurely wear the cam bearing thrust flange and possibly the elongation of the rivet holes.
But that would just be my guess. For any who wish to know the details.... the bus was cruising along fine at 25-30 mph then experienced a sudden total loss of power. Not accelerating... if anything, decelerating as I was approaching a stop light and was going to turn right.
Ya know... I DO appreciate the assistance that people offer in these forums... some of it is really quite invaluable. But don't tell me what I did or didn't do... you weren't there... I was. Perhaps you "believe" that something is impossible... fine.. believe it all you want... but your belief on that topic does NOT make it fact.
David... I never lied to you on anything. You have all the receipts and I can post pictures of the boxes. Nothing but quality parts went into that build and yes... I spent between $1K to $1.2K on it and if it moved, it got replaced.
Now... did *I* make any errors on the build. Oh... VERY possible. As much time, effort, money and thought that I put into it, it's quite possible I missed something. I don't think you really know an engine until you've built about a dozen or so and had the opportunity to observe their aging. This was my first (and only) VW... but it was a kick!
Apologies to the group....
sometimes a post just busts my cam gear.....
Craig |
Dude...cool your jets.
No one...especially me...insulted you,. As i noted a few post back.....it looked and sounded like you took as much care as you could with the build (to paraphrase myself).
Really...I don't care what you did or didn't do with this build. No one in this country in 1992....was a good enough builder of type 4 engines for long enough...as compared to whats out there today....myself included. back then my builds looked just like yours. Bluntly put...found type 4 engines in the late 80's/early 90's had a lot less owners and mileage wear than they do now....but parts for type 4's were not much less expensive than they are now...just more available.
My points stand....and hell yeah they are coming from my experience and my location.
The original poster wants to know if he can just slap this thing together on a budget and drive for two years (which is....bluntly put.... stupid with a type 4).
In order to answer that....we...or at least I am trying to figure out whether this engine had a single odd blip and cracked off a cam (very possible)....or was slowly beating the shit out of itself over a period of time....all from innuendo from the original poster who is mainly trying to justify spending as little as possible......and fairly good pictures that are actually not showing that much useful information.
All of this.....and all I have seen in this thread (which may or may not be everything I need to see)...indicate a fairly common build error that plagues type 4 engines fairly exclusively...that being the incorrect gap between cam gear bolts and oil pump.....which leaves virtually everything in the engine scrap if it was a slow death....or very little damage if it was a quick death.
I have not said anything is impossible in this thread.....simply put...nothing I have seen has proven that what I am pointing out hasn't happened.
If you built this engine and have been sitting in the background...perhaps getting out front and giving all the build details may help in the diagnosis....which I assume was asked for...since we are here on a public forum and not in his living room.
And..while I highly respect that you have built tens of engines....apparently watercooled (just from what I gather)....as most of us have learned. It prepares you not for building air cooled...much less type 4 air cooled.
Not an insult...simply fact. And...it still looks like you did in general...a damn good job with no type 4 experience.
I am simply trying to figure out at a distance...what the cause of death was.
The cause of death makes a difference on what the original poster may have to spend in money and time...or acquiring measuring tools he may not own... to have various parts checked properly....versus coughing up the cash now to do it right.
A piece of advice.....learn to look at things on line more objectively and control your temper. There was no malice in any of my posts...and they were based on experience with this engine type (its all I have worked on for 35 years)...and seeing key damage items in the limited photos.
Ray |
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rustybutterknife
Samba Member
Joined: June 06, 2003
Posts: 488
Location: Georgetown, IN
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| Posted: Mon Jul 07, 2014 5:38 pm Post subject: |
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| raygreenwood wrote: |
| CraigTee wrote: |
| raygreenwood wrote: |
Yep.....I knew that was what happened. The history on the new gear was just icing on the cake.
There are other minor issues. There is no doubt that the PO took as much time and care as he could......but $1000 even in 1992.....would only be a refurb.....basic. Prime quality P&C sets even in 1992 were $250 average. Basic valve job with little replaced was avg $125 per head. A stock. vw cam....more expensive even in those days to an aftermarket cam.....about $175. Seal set....about $55...rod rebuild about $25 a rod with bolts in thoze days. Basic balance about $90. Odds and ends with no other machine work and parts....about $50.....so thats your 1992 1k rebuild.
I notice some of the valves are new and some are vw. Chances are springs and seats are as well.
The best de al in town is a Raby valve train kit. Ray |
LOL!!! OK my friends... I can hold my tongue on all the "PO screwed up here and probably screwed up there too" posts.... since it really WAS my first air cooled build... after building tens of water cooled from all mfgs....
But I won't hold with this one. You, my friend, are totally clueless on this ... you are surmising from YOUR experience and location. As it happens, we had ONE awesome VW (and other imports) supply in town. The owner, Helmut, was retired from Volkswagon and the most respected local authority in town. I spent a LOT of time in that shop, picking brains.
Experienced pro mechanics would come in and ask him questions on their own projects. He always knew the answer.
Every engine part (including gaskets) that went into that engine was OEM (albeit some admittedly Brazilian) or Bosch, Weber etc. NO cheap aftermarket as Helmut wouldn't stock it.
NO... that was NOT simply a refurb. In fact Helmut complimented me on the completeness of that build and my desire to "do it right". EVERYTHING that moved got replaced... and yes... the heads were delivered to the shop Helmut recommended and totally redone. They were CC'd and shimmed upon the build.
The crank was a turned crank, the cam was new, the carb was new, the rockers were new, the push rods were new....
Hell... why am I even going through all this? ALL the receipts are in WWestyman's possession and will back up this post. Included on these receipts are numbers.... if you run those numbers you'll find they're OEM part numbers. BTW: WWestyman took a picture of the VW on the cam, so I don't know how anybody could say it was aftermarket.
Yet... you say that's impossible? You are wrong my friend... it WAS possible because Helmut had a set of ethics unmatched by anybody I'd ever met. His prices for genuine parts were less than online prices for junk parts. Again.... don't believe me... you don't even know me.... but you will have to believe the receipts... 'cause they don't lie. Hey! I still got the boxes those parts came in! Ya want pictures?
WWestyman.... I looked at the photos of that cam... and to me (without the cam in hand!) it appears that the teeth took a beating. You say that the crank gear looks good.... have you cleaned it up and REALLY CAREFULLY examined each tooth under magnification? If I were to guess the cause of this failure, I would be guessing a bad cam/crank tooth mesh causing the cam to move and prematurely wear the cam bearing thrust flange and possibly the elongation of the rivet holes.
But that would just be my guess. For any who wish to know the details.... the bus was cruising along fine at 25-30 mph then experienced a sudden total loss of power. Not accelerating... if anything, decelerating as I was approaching a stop light and was going to turn right.
Ya know... I DO appreciate the assistance that people offer in these forums... some of it is really quite invaluable. But don't tell me what I did or didn't do... you weren't there... I was. Perhaps you "believe" that something is impossible... fine.. believe it all you want... but your belief on that topic does NOT make it fact.
David... I never lied to you on anything. You have all the receipts and I can post pictures of the boxes. Nothing but quality parts went into that build and yes... I spent between $1K to $1.2K on it and if it moved, it got replaced.
Now... did *I* make any errors on the build. Oh... VERY possible. As much time, effort, money and thought that I put into it, it's quite possible I missed something. I don't think you really know an engine until you've built about a dozen or so and had the opportunity to observe their aging. This was my first (and only) VW... but it was a kick!
Apologies to the group....
sometimes a post just busts my cam gear.....
Craig |
Dude...cool your jets.
No one...especially me...insulted you,. As i noted a few post back.....it looked and sounded like you took as much care as you could with the build (to paraphrase myself).
Really...I don't care what you did or didn't do with this build. No one in this country in 1992....was a good enough builder of type 4 engines for long enough...as compared to whats out there today....myself included. back then my builds looked just like yours. Bluntly put...found type 4 engines in the late 80's/early 90's had a lot less owners and mileage wear than they do now....but parts for type 4's were not much less expensive than they are now...just more available.
My points stand....and hell yeah they are coming from my experience and my location.
The original poster wants to know if he can just slap this thing together on a budget and drive for two years (which is....bluntly put.... stupid with a type 4).
In order to answer that....we...or at least I am trying to figure out whether this engine had a single odd blip and cracked off a cam (very possible)....or was slowly beating the shit out of itself over a period of time....all from innuendo from the original poster who is mainly trying to justify spending as little as possible......and fairly good pictures that are actually not showing that much useful information.
All of this.....and all I have seen in this thread (which may or may not be everything I need to see)...indicate a fairly common build error that plagues type 4 engines fairly exclusively...that being the incorrect gap between cam gear bolts and oil pump.....which leaves virtually everything in the engine scrap if it was a slow death....or very little damage if it was a quick death.
I have not said anything is impossible in this thread.....simply put...nothing I have seen has proven that what I am pointing out hasn't happened.
If you built this engine and have been sitting in the background...perhaps getting out front and giving all the build details may help in the diagnosis....which I assume was asked for...since we are here on a public forum and not in his living room.
And..while I highly respect that you have built tens of engines....apparently watercooled (just from what I gather)....as most of us have learned. It prepares you not for building air cooled...much less type 4 air cooled.
Not an insult...simply fact. And...it still looks like you did in general...a damn good job with no type 4 experience.
I am simply trying to figure out at a distance...what the cause of death was.
The cause of death makes a difference on what the original poster may have to spend in money and time...or acquiring measuring tools he may not own... to have various parts checked properly....versus coughing up the cash now to do it right.
A piece of advice.....learn to look at things on line more objectively and control your temper. There was no malice in any of my posts...and they were based on experience with this engine type (its all I have worked on for 35 years)...and seeing key damage items in the limited photos.
Ray |
x2 nobody was trying to throw any stones, rather trying to help put the pieces together to try to find out what caused the failure, kinda like a little forensic mechanical puzzle. Glad someone else with first hand experience with this engine was able to chime in. It helps the collective understanding a great deal.
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CraigTee
Samba Member
Joined: March 09, 2014
Posts: 12
Location: SouthWestern Oregon
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| Posted: Mon Jul 07, 2014 5:39 pm Post subject: |
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Hey David... noticed your post trying to figure out how far to take this build after I got done going ballistic. 
Here's my two cents... and this is if it were me doing that engine again:
I forget how many miles I put on that build... was it like 20K or so?
Anyway... dropping that engine out takes maybe what, an hour or so on the outside? No big deal... For me, the big deal is in splitting that suitcase open. That's when things get labor intensive and time consuming... not to mention monetarily taxing! 
Anything INSIDE that case would get number one priority.... either new, rebuilt, or machined. (Except rods, they would just get checked for any twist and miked for oblong stretching and pin fitment) Anything that might affect the health of anything inside that case would receive the same priority. Everything else would get miked out.
I wouldn't swap jugs without cause... but certainly a good clean up and new rings. Again, everything would get miked. I'd take the heads into a REPUTABLE shop for inspection/rebuild. Perhaps they only need a good clean up.
I wasn't pleased to see evidence of blow by on the heads. I did re-torque after an initial period but perhaps should have gone back in a third time. That kinda made me sad to see....
New gaskets (duh), and I would REALLY give that oil pump the thrice over. In fact... if I could replace it, I would. It would bother me knowing that it was in there. A little bit of JB weld on that cam gear should do the trick.
You mentioned carbs... when I got that bus, somebody had pulled the idle circuit hoses off. Instead of messing with it, I just bought that progressive Weber since everybody was ranting about them back then.... especially since there were questions about the original carbs feeding the additional 300 CC's of the 2.0L. It might be worth cleaning up that Weber....
As far as the past history of that engine and everything that got put into it? You have the receipts, you know. If others wish to guess what or wasn't done, let them... then go to your receipts and see for yourself. You also have that "to do" list I made up after doing my homework on the suitcase engine. That might be worthwhile to go over prior to your build and to see what was done on my build.
Trying to guess the reason for an engine failure is always entertaining, and sometimes even helpful to avoid the same problem on future builds. However... again... it's only guesses. Two professionals (paid for their services) might well offer two totally different scenarios. A wise man will listen to BOTH and make sure he addresses BOTH possibilities on his next build.
Oh... a note about those discussing riveted cam gears... the Robert Bentley VW Official Service Manual for these buses discusses both the 3 RIVET and the 4 RIVET camshafts... stating the 4 Rivet cam is used with the later buses. The OEM VW cams gears were riveted.
For those wondering about original cam lash setting, here's the answer:
It was a new cam and new bearings, hence new thrust surface. The clearance was within .000 and .002". The play permitted by the thrust bearing was between .002 and .005". The cam didn't lift from it's bearings when the crank was turned backward.
Now... how do I know this? From memory? Nope... it's because there's pencil checkmarks in my Bentley manual which meant "Done! Next?" LOL!
The rebuild was done with a LOT of outside help, the Bentley manual in my right hand and the John Muir's timeless novel in my left (the updated version that included the pancake engine). Yes... I cranked the wrenches with my toes... I'm that good.
Yes... it was my only air cooled rebuild... but I recognized that fact going in and was smart enough to know there was going to be some differences... so I took nothing for granted. If it wasn't obvious, and Bentley nor Muir offered me any guidance, I checked with the experienced pros in the area until I was satisfied with an answer.
So... I've landed as requested... perhaps not as quietly as I could or should have... but am here to answer any additional questions anybody (especially YOU David) may have about the original rebuild. Please don't let my previous rant dissuade you from asking. I just got irate when somebody told me that something hadn't happened when I knew for a fact that it had.
David... you don't want to short yourself on the build... it's what you rely on to get you from point A to point B. On the other hand.... a lot of that stuff is still new.... the parts that haven't rusted out in the last 10 years or so... and I WOULD re-use them. Put those original carbs in a box and save them for the restoration. Clean the Weber and check the rubber parts... they might be shot... rebuild if necessary (it's a simple carb) and reinstall. I think I could do that engine here for under 5 bills pretty easy... maybe far less if the heads still look good.
Somebody mentioned a bent valve... wasn't aware that this was an interfering engine but look at the pistons... if the tops are unmarked you're probably good to go. Just ask the machine shop to double check.
Take your time... do it yourself... and learn to know your rig. |
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rustybutterknife
Samba Member
Joined: June 06, 2003
Posts: 488
Location: Georgetown, IN
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| Posted: Mon Jul 07, 2014 5:40 pm Post subject: |
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| vwwestyman wrote: |
| rustybutterknife wrote: |
| CraigTee wrote: |
I really don't think ANYTHING is missing.... It doesn't run. I put a camshaft with a soft magnesium gear on it and must have missed a burr on the crank gear because it stripped the cam gear. I had the crank gear transferred from the old 1700cc crank to the new 2000cc crank. He didn't do a great job.... Sad [Dave says: We know that this wasn't quite the case, the failure was the cam breaking!] |
there's your answer! rivets left too tall and smacked pump. loosened and worked cam until it snapped. whoever re-geared that cam would be at fault. looks like you have more than enough parts to get a good start for rebuild though. |
Wait, he is talking about the crank gear (that drives the cam off the crank), not the cam gear. He installed a new cam. How would the possibility of the crank gear maybe not being installed well result in the cam gear contacting the pump?
CraigTee's comments were made before I had the bus, or the engine out. That part was speculation. |
no you're right, read cam gear cause i wanted to. lol
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busdaddy
Samba Member
Joined: February 12, 2004
Posts: 51125
Location: Surrey B.C. Canada, but thinking of Ukraine
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| Posted: Mon Jul 07, 2014 5:59 pm Post subject: |
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Thanks for chiming in and bringing some insight regarding the original build, I too can't blame anyone and just want to find out exactly what happened so I can prevent it from happening to me or others.
I've seen cam gear rivets do that before on GEX engines but who knows the history on those reground cams?, odd to see a new cam do that.
One thing I keep seeing is the chew marks on the edges of the teeth are not shiny and new like the gouge where it dug into the oil pump, could something like a dropped bolt have been down in the gear chamber rolling around binding against the cam and eventually propagating the crack later? How about some better pics of the case surrounding where the cam gear goes?
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chazz79
Samba Member
Joined: August 15, 2008
Posts: 2268
Location: ohio
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| Posted: Mon Jul 07, 2014 7:27 pm Post subject: |
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This happens.
I would just measure clearances and see if the cam were allowed to walk back and forth towards the end of the engines life.
It could just be a fluke. Vw was notorious for not being able to get rivets to live in similar situations, just check the ring gear problems in 020 and 02j transmissions. The holes slot out just like this before the rivets shear off.
If the cam walked until a rivet or two knocked loose against the pump idler back you then get a gear that goes cockeyed. This crooked gear plinks off the cam hub because that is the easier route than forcing the gear through an off plane path. The gear gets chipped up during its last few revolutions and during its final bind just pops off the cam hub.
It's completely explainable just by looking at the mechanics of things.
This gear being broken should've hopefully locked the engine up. That would save the heads. You can check those pretty easily by laying them combustion side up on a bench (prop them level like you're cc'ing them) then fill the chambers with oil. If the level drops you're looking at a full rebuild. You can track how many valves you need by inspecting ports for oil tracks. Puff some talc down them and it shows up nicely by sticking to the oil. I'm not terribly trusting of anyone that is trying to make money off me so I try to go into things as informed as I can.
You've dug this far. You can put it back together for 500 or 5000.
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