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grantndub
Samba Member
Joined: November 18, 2002
Posts: 76
Location: Oroville, CA
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 Posted: Sun Jul 06, 2014 1:39 pm Post subject: Bellow not fitting |
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I recently got my car running after many years and I have a problem with the bellow. I can get it on the engine or the body but not both. It seems like my bellow has shrunk and is an inch or so short. I wanna get a new one but I'm worried it might be short too. I'm thinking since mine wasn't uninstalled for many years, baking in the California sun inside the car, it just isn't as ply able as it should be. Mine seems pretty ply able but I don't know how it should be.
I searched and didn't really find anyone with a problem like mine. I can get it about 90% on but it feels like I'm going to rip it. Any suggestions on anything to check? The engine can't be too far forward, right?
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Zek Dee Wagen, a 69 square |
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turbomicrowaves
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Joined: February 25, 2007
Posts: 1136
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| Posted: Sun Jul 06, 2014 2:33 pm Post subject: |
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I would keep trying until it fits. Take a picture of what the engine bay with the bellows on.
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'68 Sunroof Squareback
"There are no pieces"
OCT3 - Orange County Type 3's |
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Bobnotch
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Joined: July 06, 2003
Posts: 22407
Location: Kimball, Mi
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| Posted: Sun Jul 06, 2014 8:30 pm Post subject: |
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| turbomicrowaves wrote: |
| I would keep trying until it fits. |
Try installing it with the blocks on the bottom (how it should fit on), as there is a difference in the top and bottom sides. 
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Bob 65 Notch S with Sunroof
71 Notch ...aka Krunchy; build pics here;
http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=249390 -been busy working
64 T-34 Ghia...aka Wolfie, under construction... http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=412120
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Max Welton
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Joined: May 19, 2003
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Location: Black Forest, CO
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grantndub
Samba Member
Joined: November 18, 2002
Posts: 76
Location: Oroville, CA
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| Posted: Mon Jul 07, 2014 11:11 pm Post subject: |
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I won't have time till Thursday to try again. I didn't know there's supposed to be a top side and bottom side. I'll make sure the blocks are on the bottom, I'm pretty sure I tried it that way. The engine looks to be sitting pretty level compared to body. I'll try again and if I can't get it I'll snap some pics. Thanks.
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Zek Dee Wagen, a 69 square |
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vwfye
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Joined: April 15, 2000
Posts: 7661
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| Posted: Mon Jul 07, 2014 11:14 pm Post subject: |
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set it in the sun for an hour or so to make it more pliable. then try. i have found i often have to hold my jaw just right.
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64 No'back Speedster "Pearl"
1980s Sand Dragster "The Plunger"
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grantndub
Samba Member
Joined: November 18, 2002
Posts: 76
Location: Oroville, CA
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| Posted: Mon Jul 21, 2014 12:10 pm Post subject: |
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I tried to get it again today. After messing with it today, I think my engine is sitting too low. My bushings to the engine mount are really worn. When I put a jack under the engine it seemed to line up better. I ordered a new bellow because I ripped mine. When I pull on mine, out of car, it doesn't really stretch much more from it original form.
These are without the jack under it.
With the bellow on the body and the clamp on. It's close but it can't really stretch it any farther.
On the engine. In the last pics I'm pushing it with my finger. It won't fit. Anything I'm missing?
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Zek Dee Wagen, a 69 square |
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vwfye
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Joined: April 15, 2000
Posts: 7661
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| Posted: Mon Jul 21, 2014 12:59 pm Post subject: |
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i had this issue, the other way though, on a squareback. the PO had moved the transmission rearward almost 3" for his hokie modification. I had to undo it all as the IRS axles were going forward to the wheels. 
Perhaps your transmission was moved forward somehow. Look at your axles and see if they are pointing slightly rearward. If so, something is a miss.
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64 No'back Speedster "Pearl"
1980s Sand Dragster "The Plunger"
LME "Little Giant Killer 3" |
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KTPhil 
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Joined: April 06, 2006
Posts: 33991
Location: Conejo Valley, CA
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| Posted: Mon Jul 21, 2014 1:01 pm Post subject: |
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Just a practical tip while you await a solution to the problem (like new motor/tranny mounts): Attach it with a clamp to the body, NOT to the fan housing. Yeah, some warm air will get sucked in in either case, but it's better than no cool air at all. Most important, if you were to clamp it to the fan housing, the vacuum might pull the other end inward, closing off cooling airflow. With it attached to the body instead, at least it won't get sucked in and overheat your motor.
Last edited by KTPhil on Mon Jul 21, 2014 1:20 pm; edited 2 times in total |
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grantndub
Samba Member
Joined: November 18, 2002
Posts: 76
Location: Oroville, CA
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| Posted: Mon Jul 21, 2014 1:15 pm Post subject: |
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Thanks for the tip, KTPhil. I noticed this the other day, I've been having it clamped to the body for my 10 minute trip to my buddy's house to work on it. The other day I had it on the engine and it started to overheat by time I got there. It was all sucked it, I'm afraid to drive it farther, and it's ready to go. I'll keep it on the body.
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Zek Dee Wagen, a 69 square |
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Bobnotch
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Joined: July 06, 2003
Posts: 22407
Location: Kimball, Mi
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| Posted: Mon Jul 21, 2014 1:43 pm Post subject: |
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| grantndub wrote: |
| Thanks for the tip, KTPhil. I noticed this the other day, I've been having it clamped to the body for my 10 minute trip to my buddy's house to work on it. The other day I had it on the engine and it started to overheat by time I got there. It was all sucked it, I'm afraid to drive it farther, and it's ready to go. I'll keep it on the body. |
I had 1 engine here a few years ago, that I tack welded a strip of metal to the fan shoud (engine side) to make the bellows fit. It wasn't a factory recomendation, but it did work fine for many years until it got a new bellows. I think that engine sat too low as well, as it needed engine mount bushings too. 
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Bob 65 Notch S with Sunroof
71 Notch ...aka Krunchy; build pics here;
http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=249390 -been busy working
64 T-34 Ghia...aka Wolfie, under construction... http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=412120
| Tram wrote: |
| "Friends are God's way of apologizing for relatives." |
| Tram wrote: |
| People keep confusing "restored" and "restroyed". |
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KTPhil
Samba Member
Joined: April 06, 2006
Posts: 33991
Location: Conejo Valley, CA
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| Posted: Mon Jul 21, 2014 4:06 pm Post subject: |
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| vwfye wrote: |
i had this issue, the other way though, on a squareback. the PO had moved the transmission rearward almost 3" for his hokie modification. I had to undo it all as the IRS axles were going forward to the wheels.
Perhaps your transmission was moved forward somehow. Look at your axles and see if they are pointing slightly rearward. If so, something is a miss. |
Interesting that on the Type 4, the axles were not parallel. This may have been taken with the car on a lift (and is presumably airbrushed), but it might get even more extreme when the suspension is level or compressed. I would have thought this would invite faster CV joint wear.
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grantndub
Samba Member
Joined: November 18, 2002
Posts: 76
Location: Oroville, CA
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| Posted: Sun Aug 10, 2014 10:46 pm Post subject: |
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To update this. I bought a new bellow, front trans mount, and the stuff to make custom rear mounts. Today I took mine out and stood them next each other. Not only is it taller but it is more plyable. It fits!! and I haven't replaced any of the mounts.
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Zek Dee Wagen, a 69 square |
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vwfye
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Joined: April 15, 2000
Posts: 7661
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| Posted: Mon Aug 11, 2014 9:16 am Post subject: |
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I hate shrinkage!
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1980s Sand Dragster "The Plunger"
LME "Little Giant Killer 3" |
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Max Welton
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Joined: May 19, 2003
Posts: 10697
Location: Black Forest, CO
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rosevillain
Samba Member
Joined: December 28, 2005
Posts: 1289
Location: roseville, ca
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| Posted: Mon Aug 11, 2014 2:40 pm Post subject: |
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| grantndub wrote: |
To update this. I bought a new bellow, front trans mount, and the stuff to make custom rear mounts. Today I took mine out and stood them next each other. Not only is it taller but it is more plyable. It fits!! and I haven't replaced any of the mounts.
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I had the same issue. I bought a new bellows from the most reputable dealer of parts. I fought with it every time I touched it. Bought another one years later from a cheap parts house. The newest one was more plyable and longer, and fit much easier. Hopefuly, it won't tear, suck in to the pulley, twist the pulley off of the fan, throw the fan so far out of balance that it rips the rubber hub mount and ruins the fan housing, cause the engine to overheat while it twists the snout of the crank and wiping out #4 main bearing, ruining the case.
You're welcome. |
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raygreenwood
Samba Member
Joined: November 24, 2008
Posts: 21510
Location: Oklahoma City
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| Posted: Mon Aug 11, 2014 8:58 pm Post subject: |
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| KTPhil wrote: |
| vwfye wrote: |
i had this issue, the other way though, on a squareback. the PO had moved the transmission rearward almost 3" for his hokie modification. I had to undo it all as the IRS axles were going forward to the wheels.
Perhaps your transmission was moved forward somehow. Look at your axles and see if they are pointing slightly rearward. If so, something is a miss. |
Interesting that on the Type 4, the axles were not parallel. This may have been taken with the car on a lift (and is presumably airbrushed), but it might get even more extreme when the suspension is level or compressed. I would have thought this would invite faster CV joint wear.
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No... its never been a problem on type 4's. Also there are some slight differences from year to year. Mine are pointing rearward but they are not that extreme. And...the rear suspension arc is very short...rough;y 4" before contacting bump stops....heavy springs.
Other type 4 oddities you will like....is that the rear trailing wishbones are in slots on the beam. Yoou can slide them in or out by a total travle of about an inch to make sure track is set and to make sure that the driveshafts are the right length so the balls run correctly in the cages in the joints. There was even a sliding tool made....one for sale here a year or so ago.....that sets the distance from the transaxle case centerline. Ray |
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KTPhil
Samba Member
Joined: April 06, 2006
Posts: 33991
Location: Conejo Valley, CA
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| Posted: Tue Aug 12, 2014 8:20 am Post subject: |
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| raygreenwood wrote: |
Other type 4 oddities you will like....is that the rear trailing wishbones are in slots on the beam. Yoou can slide them in or out by a total travle of about an inch to make sure track is set and to make sure that the driveshafts are the right length so the balls run correctly in the cages in the joints. There was even a sliding tool made....one for sale here a year or so ago.....that sets the distance from the transaxle case centerline. Ray |
I may never own one, but I am intrigued by the Type 4 design differences... sort of the transition between the old Bug-based designs and the more modern Audi-based models that followed.
I have that centering tool for the Type 3 (360). I had one piece of the T4 tool (361) but I think I scrapped it.
And yes, the centering for the CV balls/driveshaft play is the reason for the washer arrangement on the diagonal arms for the T3 setup. I believe this approach was used on the Porsche 924 as well. This is the reason VW says not to adjust the engine hangers on the body-- it will upset this play and lead to wear of the CVs and the rubber hangers as they hit the limit of their travel and force compliance elsewhere in the system.
Does the T4 use washers as well, or some other adjustment method? |
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