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Cortland15B
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Joined: March 15, 2011
Posts: 394
Location: Northern Wisconsin
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 Posted: Wed Jul 09, 2014 12:14 pm Post subject: Hook and rod |
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So I just started to install the hook and rod stop and want to make sure I have done it right before I go on. I have 1 side tacked in, heres the pics. How I found the placement for the hook was I maxed out the ball joints until they bound, made the ball joint end parallel with the shock tower and then backed off a pinch. I hope this is how you're supposed to do it, or am I supposed to do it with the spindle on?
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shephard_scott
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Joined: April 25, 2011
Posts: 82
Location: Flint, Michigan
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| Posted: Wed Jul 09, 2014 12:52 pm Post subject: |
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| You should also take into account when your shocks are going to max out. There wont be much point in stops if your shocks blow out before they work. I did mine with the spindles and shocks installed, but I have link pin so I was only focused on the shocks. You should make it so the shock cannot completely extend or compress. I gave mine between 1/2 to 1 inch both ways. |
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Cortland15B
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Joined: March 15, 2011
Posts: 394
Location: Northern Wisconsin
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petrol punk
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Joined: August 21, 2007
Posts: 977
Location: Las Vegas, NV
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| Posted: Wed Jul 09, 2014 1:35 pm Post subject: |
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| Cortland15B wrote: |
| In the ball joint suspension the ball joints serve as the suspension stops, so shouldn't the shocks max out "after" the ball joints do? |
Ball joints should never serve as suspension stops, you will break ball joints if you do. Neither shocks nor ball joints should serve as suspension stops, you need something like a hook and rod stop or other stop. If the torsion leaves max out the ball joint misalignment it puts a large bending moment on the shank and breaks it. My buddy's rail uses the ball joints as suspension stops and he keeps having to tow it back home on 3 wheels.
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Cortland15B
Samba Member
Joined: March 15, 2011
Posts: 394
Location: Northern Wisconsin
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| Posted: Wed Jul 09, 2014 1:48 pm Post subject: |
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| Quote: |
| Ball joints should never serve as suspension stops, you will break ball joints if you do. Neither shocks nor ball joints should serve as suspension stops, you need something like a hook and rod stop or other stop. If the torsion leaves max out the ball joint misalignment it puts a large bending moment on the shank and breaks it. My buddy's rail uses the ball joints as suspension stops and he keeps having to tow it back home on 3 wheels |
Then why do all the stock bugs out there not break a ball joint every time they hit a pothole? If I've done my research right there is no stop in the stock suspension. The absence of a stock stop is exactly why I'm adding the hook and rod.
Is the method I used to determine where the hooks should be placed correct or do I have to redo them? How do you properly find where you should place the hooks?
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Cortland15B
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BUGGUTZ
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Joined: March 13, 2007
Posts: 537
Location: Luzerne Mich
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| Posted: Wed Jul 09, 2014 3:14 pm Post subject: |
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| Stock bugs have snubbers to control compression and rebound. |
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Cortland15B
Samba Member
Joined: March 15, 2011
Posts: 394
Location: Northern Wisconsin
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| Posted: Wed Jul 09, 2014 6:24 pm Post subject: |
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| Quote: |
| Stock bugs have snubbers to control compression and rebound. |
Oh ok, probably the ones at the top of the shock tower.
Does anyone know where I can find the washers for the spindles? The upper one has a special kind and I don't know what its called. Its kinda hard to search for a part you when you don't know what its called. I have a set on my old suspension but everything is so rusted on they'll be hard to get off and I want new ones. A kit would be awesome.
Thanks for the help, its greatly appreciated!
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Mal evolent
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dustymojave
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Joined: January 07, 2007
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Location: Lake LA, Mojave Desert, SoCal
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| Posted: Wed Jul 09, 2014 8:35 pm Post subject: |
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Yes Cort...The spindles need to be in place and the nuts snugged. It doesn't have to be fully torqued, but the arm spacing needs to be as it will be when you're driving.
Ball joint stock original equipment shocks had rubber compression snubbers inside. The rubber pieces at the top of the shock where it mounts to the tower is NOT a snubber. It is the mount.
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Offroading VW based cars since 1965
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Retired from building Bajas, Fiberglass Buggies and Rails in the Mojave Desert. Also Sprints & Midgets, Dry Lakes, Road Race cars. All types New and Vintage
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Cortland15B
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Joined: March 15, 2011
Posts: 394
Location: Northern Wisconsin
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| Posted: Wed Jul 09, 2014 9:06 pm Post subject: |
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| Quote: |
PostPosted: Today 9:35 pm Post subject:
Yes Cort...The spindles need to be in place and the nuts snugged. It doesn't have to be fully torqued, but the arm spacing needs to be as it will be when you're driving.
Ball joint stock original equipment shocks had rubber compression snubbers inside. The rubber pieces at the top of the shock where it mounts to the tower is NOT a snubber. It is the mount. |
Yeah...it seemed like it would work when I thought about it but when I actually did it, it just didn't seem right. But no harm done, at least I didn't fully weld it lol. I ordered the new camber adjusters so after I get those I'll do it the right way. 1/4 inch backed off is ok?
So the rubber at the top doesn't do anything. Do the modern shocks have this rubber inside?
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dirtkeeper
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Joined: February 19, 2008
Posts: 3200
Location: Left of everywhere
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| Posted: Wed Jul 09, 2014 9:24 pm Post subject: |
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| Cortland15B wrote: |
| Quote: |
| Ball joints should never serve as suspension stops, you will break ball joints if you do. Neither shocks nor ball joints should serve as suspension stops, you need something like a hook and rod stop or other stop. If the torsion leaves max out the ball joint misalignment it puts a large bending moment on the shank and breaks it. My buddy's rail uses the ball joints as suspension stops and he keeps having to tow it back home on 3 wheels |
Then why do all the stock bugs out there not break a ball joint every time they hit a pothole? If I've done my research right there is no stop in the stock suspension. The absence of a stock stop is exactly why I'm adding the hook and rod.
Is the method I used to determine where the hooks should be placed correct or do I have to redo them? How do you properly find where you should place the hooks? |
Well looks like you got the part about the spindle has to be on. Then after you get your stops on that's when you need to measure the travel and get appropriate shocks. Bilstein makes some nice ones that are the right size for this application.
I think the reason in a stock application the ball joints dont come apart is because the max travel is rarely achieved. Where as in a baja will typically have a cut and turn front which moves the arm location closer to the max travel and flying off bumps push the limits. |
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earthquake
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Joined: January 10, 2008
Posts: 3984
Location: SANDY VALLEY, NEVADA
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| Posted: Fri Jul 11, 2014 1:12 am Post subject: |
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When I did mine I only put the rebound stops on, I very rarely bottom out my car and I did not want it pounding the crap out of my front end. If I need a compression stop I will put a rubber stop in.
When I set up my lower stop I put the arms on with the spindle bolted up and push it all the way down and then set it 1/2" up and tacked the stops to the arms...
I also made a tool to hold it in place, it also helps to put the front end together once you have to get the arms on the hooks.
Are you going to do all the Class 11 tricks?
gusset on shock tower
gusset on steering arms
shim the steering arm on the steering box [I found a brass washer that fit perfect]
stock anti-roll bar inside tie-rods to stiffen them
weld the steering box clamp to beam to prevent the box from rotating
some guys gusset the steering arm but I did not do it
cut and rotate up to 9/16" [I only went 7/16" and it plenty stiff]
Weld the shock tower all the way around [ I heated mine with a torch to burn the oil out and fused it with a TIG welder]
Casey
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Cortland15B
Samba Member
Joined: March 15, 2011
Posts: 394
Location: Northern Wisconsin
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| Posted: Fri Jul 11, 2014 7:21 am Post subject: |
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| Quote: |
When I did mine I only put the rebound stops on, I very rarely bottom out my car and I did not want it pounding the crap out of my front end. If I need a compression stop I will put a rubber stop in.
When I set up my lower stop I put the arms on with the spindle bolted up and push it all the way down and then set it 1/2" up and tacked the stops to the arms... |
Yeah I thought of doing just the bottom one but I decided to try out the front without cutting and turning it so its not as stiff and could possibly max out on a jounce. And its not to much more work for me, it looks like you did it with the torsion leaves in, mine aren't. Is that a problem? I wouldn't think so.
| Quote: |
Are you going to do all the Class 11 tricks?
gusset on shock tower
gusset on steering arms
shim the steering arm on the steering box [I found a brass washer that fit perfect]
stock anti-roll bar inside tie-rods to stiffen them
weld the steering box clamp to beam to prevent the box from rotating
some guys gusset the steering arm but I did not do it
cut and rotate up to 9/16" [I only went 7/16" and it plenty stiff]
Weld the shock tower all the way around [ I heated mine with a torch to burn the oil out and fused it with a TIG welder] |
So far I've welded gussets on the shock tower between the 2 beams, I welded the shock tower seam, the trailing arm seams, and the transaxle horseshoe seams. So I've done a few things on the list plus a couple of my own. I wasn't planning on doing all of those but most of them I've never heard about. How critical are the other mods?
These were some of my first welds.
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earthquake
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Joined: January 10, 2008
Posts: 3984
Location: SANDY VALLEY, NEVADA
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| Posted: Fri Jul 11, 2014 9:31 am Post subject: |
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I forgot to ask what kind of car you are building?
All the mods are not critical if you don't plan on thrashing it in the desert to hard or any heavy jumping, I would shim the box to keep it from pounding the cast aluminum top cover and making your steering sloppy. To shim it take the steering arm off and put a thick washer between the arm and the box to keep the sector shaft from moving up and down, before you take the arm off use some thing to measure how thick of a washer you need so you have about .020" play so the box will still turn freely, If I remember I used a 1/8"thick 1" brass washer and it was prefect. the class 11 guy will actually weld the arm on too with a TIG welder. I have also heard you can use shims from a Link Pin front beam to shim the steering box but have never confirmed it. I took the time to clean up my steering box when I did mine, I also took the top cover off and cleaned out all the old lube and filled it with Mobil synthetic grease, I put a urethane coupler in it too but replaced it with a new rag joint because it cracked in the first year, they are junk don't spend the money on one.
There is lots of info on the "The Class 11 Coalition" web sight.
http://class11coalition.com/forum/index
Casey
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69 DUNE BUGGY
79 INTERNATIONAL SCOUT II
05 SCION XB SERIES RELEASE 2[#437]
95 Chevy C3500 dually
98 Ford E150
Link to Kelly J. Nolte 3/20/53 - 11/6/08
https://time-zonelabs.blogspot.com/p/about-kelly.html
DEATH TO CHINGERS!
[From a military recruitment poster in the novel "The Stainless Steel Rat" By Harry Harrison] |
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Cortland15B
Samba Member
Joined: March 15, 2011
Posts: 394
Location: Northern Wisconsin
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| Posted: Fri Jul 11, 2014 10:08 am Post subject: |
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I forgot to ask what kind of car you are building?
All the mods are not critical if you don't plan on thrashing it in the desert to hard or any heavy jumping, I would shim the box to keep it from pounding the cast aluminum top cover and making your steering sloppy. To shim it take the steering arm off and put a thick washer between the arm and the box to keep the sector shaft from moving up and down, before you take the arm off use some thing to measure how thick of a washer you need so you have about .020" play so the box will still turn freely, If I remember I used a 1/8"thick 1" brass washer and it was prefect. the class 11 guy will actually weld the arm on too with a TIG welder. I have also heard you can use shims from a Link Pin front beam to shim the steering box but have never confirmed it. I took the time to clean up my steering box when I did mine, I also took the top cover off and cleaned out all the old lube and filled it with Mobil synthetic grease, I put a urethane coupler in it too but replaced it with a new rag joint because it cracked in the first year, they are junk don't spend the money on one. |
Its going to be a recreational off-roader and a daily driver in the summer time. I live in Wisconsin so it would be more fire roads, dirt trails, gravel backroads, etc. There would be no jumping. I won't be messing with the steering quite yet but when I do I'll have to do this, doesn't seem to hard. So you put the washer between the tie rod ends and where it connects the the steering box? I like the idea of cleaning out the steering box. I heard the urethane couplers were bad so I bought a rubber one instead, good thing I did.
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dirtkeeper
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Joined: February 19, 2008
Posts: 3200
Location: Left of everywhere
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| Posted: Fri Jul 11, 2014 11:45 am Post subject: |
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| Cortland15B wrote: |
| Quote: |
I forgot to ask what kind of car you are building?
All the mods are not critical if you don't plan on thrashing it in the desert to hard or any heavy jumping, I would shim the box to keep it from pounding the cast aluminum top cover and making your steering sloppy. To shim it take the steering arm off and put a thick washer between the arm and the box to keep the sector shaft from moving up and down, before you take the arm off use some thing to measure how thick of a washer you need so you have about .020" play so the box will still turn freely, If I remember I used a 1/8"thick 1" brass washer and it was prefect. the class 11 guy will actually weld the arm on too with a TIG welder. I have also heard you can use shims from a Link Pin front beam to shim the steering box but have never confirmed it. I took the time to clean up my steering box when I did mine, I also took the top cover off and cleaned out all the old lube and filled it with Mobil synthetic grease, I put a urethane coupler in it too but replaced it with a new rag joint because it cracked in the first year, they are junk don't spend the money on one. |
Its going to be a recreational off-roader and a daily driver in the summer time. I live in Wisconsin so it would be more fire roads, dirt trails, gravel backroads, etc. There would be no jumping. I won't be messing with the steering quite yet but when I do I'll have to do this, doesn't seem to hard. So you put the washer between the tie rod ends and where it connects the the steering box? I like the idea of cleaning out the steering box. I heard the urethane couplers were bad so I bought a rubber one instead, good thing I did. |
i think the shims you are referring to go between the bottom of the steering box between the box and the pivot arm. It keeps the arm from pushing up into the box too much. I think the washers from the generator pulley are the correct size. I think i have about 6 or 10 or so on mine |
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Cortland15B
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Joined: March 15, 2011
Posts: 394
Location: Northern Wisconsin
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| Posted: Tue Jul 22, 2014 9:55 am Post subject: |
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So here it is tacked in again. I bolted the arm and then tightened it down a bit, with no torsions in, I lifted up till it bound, backed it off about 1/4 inch then tacked it in. The same with the bottom just pushing down on it. Does it look ok? Do I have the go ahead to weld it fully?
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DirtDgr
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Joined: August 20, 2011
Posts: 94
Location: Lakeport, Ca
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| Posted: Tue Jul 22, 2014 9:26 pm Post subject: |
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What brand ball joints are those?
Add gussets and tubing to your hooks and brace the rod.
Also depending on your tires, you might have to limit your steering a bit so your tire wont rub on the upper hook giving you a flat.
http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=4...p;start=40
Check out the link if you haven't already.
Oh and the "no jumping" comment? Haha! Good luck with that!
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Cortland15B
Samba Member
Joined: March 15, 2011
Posts: 394
Location: Northern Wisconsin
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| Posted: Tue Jul 22, 2014 9:58 pm Post subject: |
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| DirtDgr wrote: |
What brand ball joints are those?
Add gussets and tubing to your hooks and brace the rod.
Also depending on your tires, you might have to limit your steering a bit so your tire wont rub on the upper hook giving you a flat.
http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=4...p;start=40
Check out the link if you haven't already.
Oh and the "no jumping" comment? Haha! Good luck with that! |
They're Flennor ball joints, made in Germany. I believe I bought them from chirco, the ones they label as German. Not a bad price, they look like they're good quality too.
I was planning on gusseting the rod, we'll see about doing the hooks.
I take it that I positioned everything correctly since you didn't mention anything?
I am curious why they add the tubing cut in half, I guess it would spread the load over a bigger area and it would possibly provide a better fit but I ground down the hooks to fit well. Is it really necessary?
I'll make sure to check when the tires are on. Thanks.
I did see that link but never went to page 3 lol.
I don't know about the jumping...we'll see... 
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