| Author |
Message |
luckystiff
Samba Member
Joined: September 28, 2005
Posts: 2252
Location: hickory,nc
|
 Posted: Sun Jul 27, 2014 10:16 pm Post subject: |
 |
|
from what you've said here you are also still short on #7 on that list. either that or a treatment plan was outlined but needs revision.
i'm going to say this the nicest way i know how TAKE CARE OF YOUR HEALING ABOVE ALL ELSE!!!!! i say this as someone who at 42 wakes up in pain EVERY DAY. thats 45% wrecks that wrecked me,15% bikes/skating, 30% that i've worked labor intensive jobs since i was 13. 10% of what i feel is probably whats normal for a 42 year old. pretty sure i'm also seeing fairly strong signs of arthritis. neither if these two things are good for someone that for career and hobby works with their hands.
the car will be fixed when it's fixed. the longer you extend getting yourself on a complete treatment plan the longer it can take. follow a more frequent visit plan and you may be rehab'd in a few months. slack off and it may take years if ever.
and i haven't had to use a laawyer for an accident for 15 years but back in those days my guy who was considered the best in town got 15% if settled out of court and 25% if it went to court. with his reputation not many of his cases went to court.
_________________
ITMC
Secret Service |
|
| Back to top |
|
 |
VWGirl
Samba Member
Joined: June 03, 2003
Posts: 2462
Location: Powder Springs, GA
|
| Posted: Sun Jul 27, 2014 11:49 pm Post subject: |
|
|
Yeah, I dont know where any of you get that I dont have a good treatment plan? Unless you are not considering a chiropractor as a doctor? But I wouldnt go to a regular doctor for this. There was that time that she went out of town for a long weekend so I went like 5 days without seeing her. Guess that was too much? I thought it was a bit much. Went to her the day she left, and the day she came back. It sucked, but people have lives and plans. Ive only been seeing her since 7/8 and the accident was 7/7. She couldnt get me in the same day when I called and I know that isnt satisfactory to some?
I dont have an end date set up for treatment, but that isnt how she works... she treats til youre better.
Im happy with how things are going... I dont really see what the issue is?
_________________
Without love in the dream it will never come true |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Tram
Samba Socialist
Joined: May 02, 2003
Posts: 22711
Location: Still Feelin' the Bern- Once you've felt it you can't un- feel it.
|
| Posted: Mon Jul 28, 2014 12:50 am Post subject: |
|
|
The issue is that you keep posting issues that you then turn around and say are not issues and everything is going swimmingly whenever anyone offers the advice you asked for in the first place.
Let us know when there are some results to report- unless this is really just a blog.
Best of luck to ya!
_________________
Немає виправдання для війни! Я з Україною.
| Bryan67 wrote: |
| Just my hands. And a little lube. No tools. |
To best contact me, please use the EMAIL function in my profile |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
VWGirl
Samba Member
Joined: June 03, 2003
Posts: 2462
Location: Powder Springs, GA
|
| Posted: Mon Jul 28, 2014 3:37 am Post subject: |
|
|
| Tram wrote: |
The issue is that you keep posting issues that you then turn around and say are not issues and everything is going swimmingly whenever anyone offers the advice you asked for in the first place.
Let us know when there are some results to report- unless this is really just a blog.
Best of luck to ya! |
I am sorry I reply when people post? Sorry I updated that they looked at the car?
Not sure what issues I have posted other than in the beginning when I was really trying to figure out what this is all about trying to work with an insurance company on a foreign car with stated value and no title... no one seems to know that answer so I figuring it out as I go along anyway.
_________________
Without love in the dream it will never come true |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Erik G
Samba Member
Joined: October 16, 2002
Posts: 13270
Location: Tejas!
|
| Posted: Mon Jul 28, 2014 7:13 am Post subject: |
|
|
| notchback wrote: |
| you must not have followed any of her threads before. |
QFT |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Donnie strickland
Samba Member
Joined: December 21, 2009
Posts: 2403
Location: Moody, AL
|
| Posted: Mon Jul 28, 2014 7:47 am Post subject: |
|
|
| VWGirl wrote: |
| I was really trying to figure out what this is all about trying to work with an insurance company on a foreign car with stated value and no title... no one seems to know that answer... |
Many people here have explained it to you, but you argue with all of the replies and refuse to follow any suggestions. Since you're obviously determined to figure it out for yourself, it's unclear why you asked at all.
_________________
71 Elm Green FI A/T Squareback |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
VWGirl
Samba Member
Joined: June 03, 2003
Posts: 2462
Location: Powder Springs, GA
|
| Posted: Mon Jul 28, 2014 8:08 am Post subject: |
|
|
| Donnie strickland wrote: |
| VWGirl wrote: |
| I was really trying to figure out what this is all about trying to work with an insurance company on a foreign car with stated value and no title... no one seems to know that answer... |
Many people here have explained it to you, but you argue with all of the replies and refuse to follow any suggestions. Since you're obviously determined to figure it out for yourself, it's unclear why you asked at all. |
I never asked for any help with anything medical. This is all about the car and what the insurance company is responsible for and what will happen to a non titled car if they try to total it if they even can do that without a title.
I have seen all the posts about how I need to go get seen by a doctor, and how I need to contact an attorney, but havent really seen any answers to those questions. I had also already been seen by a dr twice before i ever posted this thread, not that it even matters.
There have been a few comments from people who have gone through something similar and I appreciate that insight. There probably isnt an exact answer and a lot of the comments didnt necessarily apply to my situation. If you can show me all these answers donnie then I would appreciate it.
In retrospect I suppose this would have been a better question to post in a classic car forum where more people might have gone through something similar and perhaps even in my area where someone knows the laws of this particular state, what is required of the insuarnce company, and how the title laws work. I do appreciate people looking these things up online for me, but I have done that myself as well and also yielded inconclusive results.
I appreciate those who have actually shared their experiences. Even though the laws in every state are different, it is still good to know what can be done elsewhere. It looks like I probably will end up answering these questions myself. Once I have answers I dont mind sharing them. As I stated I have a friend going through the exact same thing so we are going through this process together... even though we are in different states, with different coverages, and different insurance companies with different typea of policies. It is good to have outside opinions and insight of what is going on.
_________________
Without love in the dream it will never come true |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Clatter
Samba Member
Joined: September 24, 2003
Posts: 7537
Location: Santa Cruz
|
| Posted: Mon Jul 28, 2014 8:19 am Post subject: |
|
|
Thanks for sharing your experiences with this.
Helps to open this topic up, and to learn what we are up against these days...
Even though this place can seem hostile at times,
I think it could be helpful for all of us to see what happens.
Keep us posted!
_________________
Bus Motor Build
What’s That Noise?!? |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
luckystiff
Samba Member
Joined: September 28, 2005
Posts: 2252
Location: hickory,nc
|
| Posted: Mon Jul 28, 2014 9:23 am Post subject: |
|
|
| VWGirl wrote: |
| My chiro is pretty awesome, but how it is right now after about 48 hours from my visit im back in pain. |
if you've told your chiro what you say here and she hasn't changed your treatment plan to an every other day visit for now the she should. i'm not a brain surgeon but i can figure out if your pain levels peak after 48hrs or so being on a mon,weds,fri schedule is what you need to "maintain your comfort level" at this point in time. i think i even said right before the above quote the chiro my mom worked for many years ago would put you on a 3 day a week at least the first coupla weeks. dropping to 2 days a week then 1 day etc. that is care management.
WAY to many people will be given a path of treatment like above and not follow it because it's "hard/not convenient" you have to make the time. even if it's spending your lunch going in for an adustment or something. it sucks that maybe you gotta eat a sandwich in the car on the way or something but it is what it is.
otherwise as said your gonna end up like me. i spent 7 hrs in a truck yesterday to go help pick up a 65 f100 cab/front clip. today i fel like i was beat with a 2x4....
_________________
ITMC
Secret Service |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Donnie strickland
Samba Member
Joined: December 21, 2009
Posts: 2403
Location: Moody, AL
|
| Posted: Mon Jul 28, 2014 9:30 am Post subject: |
|
|
| VWGirl wrote: |
| In retrospect I suppose this would have been a better question to post...in my area where someone knows the laws of this particular state, what is required of the insuarnce company, and how the title laws work. I do appreciate people looking these things up online for me, but I have done that myself as well and also yielded inconclusive results. |
Hence the multiple suggestions for you to contact an attorney, which you have steadfastly refused to do.
_________________
71 Elm Green FI A/T Squareback |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Mike Fisher
Samba Member
Joined: January 30, 2006
Posts: 17968
Location: Eugene, OR
|
|
| Back to top |
|
|
TMI Products
Samba Member
Joined: February 14, 2014
Posts: 744
Location: Corona, Ca
|
| Posted: Mon Jul 28, 2014 10:48 am Post subject: |
|
|
I will give a little info on what happened on my last accident a few years ago. I was carpooling with a guy with my driving a 09 Honda Fit. I was in the carpool lane which of course wasn't moving in morning traffic. Im always checking my mirrors.Well as I look up the dumb ass lady behind me isnt looking ahead and talking to her young daughter. I see her face as she looks up and bam! We're hit. I get out ask her wtf she was doing not paying attention blah blah blah. Well there's a 3" tear on my bumper cover. My shoulder is hurting because I braced myself. I see chiropractor which only allowed to treat for 6 weeks, then they kick you to the curb. Im still in pain, I get a MRI, they see damage. I get a cortisone shot. My arm has a reaction and locks in bent form. Still pain. the other insurance offers $250 for pain. My lawyer declines. They then offer $500. Medical bills are now at about 10K. The other insurance send me to their doctor to verify any pain. I go to a deposition. 14 months later we settle for about $16K. After unpaid medical, lawyers fees etc. , my cut was about $5500. No I didn't win. My shoulder is still messed and im told it will never be 100%
So do not do this is on your own.
_________________
Mario De Leon
1965 Turbo Mustang Fastback
1966 Type 3 Fastback
VW Division Sales Manager
[email protected]
TMI Products
1493 Bentley Dr.
Corona Ca, 92879
1-800-624-7960
951-272-1584 FAX |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
ALLWAGONS
Samba Member
Joined: June 03, 2000
Posts: 4186
Location: Pasadena CA/DTLA soon China
|
| Posted: Mon Jul 28, 2014 6:12 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| VWGirl wrote: |
| ALLWAGONS wrote: |
| VWGirl wrote: |
| notchback wrote: |
| ALLWAGONS wrote: |
| I can't believe it has been two weeks since you first posted and you haven't got a decent answer from YOUR insurance company or the other insurance for any of your complaints. |
You must not have followed any of her threads before. |
I posted here cause I thought someone may have gone through this and may have had some suggestions. As always some of the suggestions are good and some are bad. Obviously since the suggestions from different people contradict each other I cannot follow them all. I also dont post eveeything that is going on in this thread.
Im sorry if I should have picked a body shop that would have focused on the apeed of getting it done. I went to a bodyshop I trusted instead. I dont need the issue of bad bodywork to add to this whole situation. It will get done when it gets done and that will be when it is done right. I am not going to tell them to stop working on everything else theyve got just to accommodate my car that wasnt even scheduled to be there. Even regular bodyshops have schedules and make appointments. . I dont want to rush it, I just want it to be done right |
I am surprised that a grown woman, maybe college graduate or with more education than me ( ESL, high school grad) cannot handle a situation like this. Where is your common sense? None of us are experts nor claim to be, but if you had the sense on getting insurance, why do you think it is required? what do you normally do when incidents happen? how do you react to adversity? maybe it is that thing people call their "comfort zone" that I have never experienced nor heard of until I came to the US that makes you think the world is pink.
Had I been involved in this T/C, I would have;
1. call the police and obtained an incident report.
2. called my insurance to notify them of the T/C
3. had my car immediately towed to the garage of my choice
4. gone to the doctor get checked out
5. would have followed up on the repair estimate using comps
6. filed a claim
7. would have set up a treatment plan with my doctor
8. Would have had at least one estimate for the repair or my car for the other driver's ins
9. talked to an attorney
BTW this is day 1. |
Okay, now I am really curious... how would you manage to get a copy of the police report on day one? Bribe the police officer? You have to wait a minimum of 2 days, and that is business days, before you can even attempt to get a copy of the report. I guess you are right, I am doing something wrong as I havent found a way to beat the system and get a copy of police reports before they are available... and unfortunatley the insurance company doesnt move that quickly. At least not in atlanta they dont. His insurance company wouldnt do anything without a police report... honestly I dont think mine really would have either... but either way getting an adjuster out there the same day would have been tricky. Also getting the car shipped 3.5 hours away on the same day would have been tricky. Maybe you have connections that I dont, but I am not equipped to haul a car nor do I have someone on call to do so, nor do I have the money to just have a rather expensive tow bill sit around unpaid for who knows how long.
I appreciate the offering of help, but I really dont see how you expect everyone to drop what they are doing to cater to my needs. Could I have called the chiro earlier that day? Sure... but I felt fine and wasnt going to call someone randomly if I was okay.
I cannot imagine what you would think of my coworker who got tboned the week before my accident, or my friend who got hit in his beetle the week after... their processes are even slower than mine! |
By copy of the report, you give them the report # they deal with that
I have Autoclub, my car gets towed immediately, I get reimbursed.
At my shop of choice, the adjuster can come and look at the damage.
And YES, the right company will immediately cater to YOUR needs. I am NOT saying it is going to be fixed, just get the car in their possession to assess the damages.
By this time, I am at the chiropractor waiting to get therapy or whatever they deem necessary.
The only reason why we sound like a**holes, is because we respond to whatever you post.
You sound like my older sister, that makes a huge deal out of anything. I sincerely wish you the best of luck, that your pain goes away and that your beautiful car gets fixed.
_________________
I'd be UNSTOPPABLE if not for Law Enforcement and PHYSICS.
I recycle old cars and parts, other than when I rot, that's as Green as I am going to get.
Thanks to my Tesla driving neighbors, I feel more relaxed driving my SUBURBAN and old VW's.
NON INFLUENCER APPROVED |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
VWGirl
Samba Member
Joined: June 03, 2003
Posts: 2462
Location: Powder Springs, GA
|
| Posted: Mon Jul 28, 2014 6:28 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| ALLWAGONS wrote: |
| VWGirl wrote: |
| ALLWAGONS wrote: |
| VWGirl wrote: |
| notchback wrote: |
| ALLWAGONS wrote: |
| I can't believe it has been two weeks since you first posted and you haven't got a decent answer from YOUR insurance company or the other insurance for any of your complaints. |
You must not have followed any of her threads before. |
I posted here cause I thought someone may have gone through this and may have had some suggestions. As always some of the suggestions are good and some are bad. Obviously since the suggestions from different people contradict each other I cannot follow them all. I also dont post eveeything that is going on in this thread.
Im sorry if I should have picked a body shop that would have focused on the apeed of getting it done. I went to a bodyshop I trusted instead. I dont need the issue of bad bodywork to add to this whole situation. It will get done when it gets done and that will be when it is done right. I am not going to tell them to stop working on everything else theyve got just to accommodate my car that wasnt even scheduled to be there. Even regular bodyshops have schedules and make appointments. . I dont want to rush it, I just want it to be done right |
I am surprised that a grown woman, maybe college graduate or with more education than me ( ESL, high school grad) cannot handle a situation like this. Where is your common sense? None of us are experts nor claim to be, but if you had the sense on getting insurance, why do you think it is required? what do you normally do when incidents happen? how do you react to adversity? maybe it is that thing people call their "comfort zone" that I have never experienced nor heard of until I came to the US that makes you think the world is pink.
Had I been involved in this T/C, I would have;
1. call the police and obtained an incident report.
2. called my insurance to notify them of the T/C
3. had my car immediately towed to the garage of my choice
4. gone to the doctor get checked out
5. would have followed up on the repair estimate using comps
6. filed a claim
7. would have set up a treatment plan with my doctor
8. Would have had at least one estimate for the repair or my car for the other driver's ins
9. talked to an attorney
BTW this is day 1. |
Okay, now I am really curious... how would you manage to get a copy of the police report on day one? Bribe the police officer? You have to wait a minimum of 2 days, and that is business days, before you can even attempt to get a copy of the report. I guess you are right, I am doing something wrong as I havent found a way to beat the system and get a copy of police reports before they are available... and unfortunatley the insurance company doesnt move that quickly. At least not in atlanta they dont. His insurance company wouldnt do anything without a police report... honestly I dont think mine really would have either... but either way getting an adjuster out there the same day would have been tricky. Also getting the car shipped 3.5 hours away on the same day would have been tricky. Maybe you have connections that I dont, but I am not equipped to haul a car nor do I have someone on call to do so, nor do I have the money to just have a rather expensive tow bill sit around unpaid for who knows how long.
I appreciate the offering of help, but I really dont see how you expect everyone to drop what they are doing to cater to my needs. Could I have called the chiro earlier that day? Sure... but I felt fine and wasnt going to call someone randomly if I was okay.
I cannot imagine what you would think of my coworker who got tboned the week before my accident, or my friend who got hit in his beetle the week after... their processes are even slower than mine! |
By copy of the report, you give them the report # they deal with that
I have Autoclub, my car gets towed immediately, I get reimbursed.
At my shop of choice, the adjuster can come and look at the damage.
And YES, the right company will immediately cater to YOUR needs. I am NOT saying it is going to be fixed, just get the car in their possession to assess the damages.
By this time, I am at the chiropractor waiting to get therapy or whatever they deem necessary.
The only reason why we sound like a**holes, is because we respond to whatever you post.
You sound like my older sister, that makes a huge deal out of anything. I sincerely wish you the best of luck, that your pain goes away and that your beautiful car gets fixed. |
Thanks. I have AAA plus and also have towing coverage through my insurance. The problem is that AKK is a 3.5 hour drive away. For example, we had a customer tow their car in from alabama today and it was an $1100 tow bill... AAA will only cover 100 miles. They are a little over twice that far. Dont think I could convince my insurance to pick up the tab for the rest of it... and besides, why should I use one of my 4 tows a year on something insurance should pay for?
Honestly I didnt try to open the trunk at the scene. When the officer asked to see my license plate I told him it was in the trunk and I didnt think it was a good idea to try and open it right now and he agreed.
I didnt bring the car home til the following day, and I am honestly not sure at what point I was brave enough to try and open it. I had thoughts of driving the car to AKK, but then thought about the expense and inconvenience of driving there and back. This of course all came to a halt when I found I couldnt open the trunk.
_________________
Without love in the dream it will never come true |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
notchback
Insensitive Jerk
Joined: December 16, 2003
Posts: 7024
Location: Behind the Zion Curtain
|
| Posted: Thu Sep 11, 2014 7:00 pm Post subject: |
|
|
It's been over 6 weeks since you last posted. What has happened?
_________________
| zeen wrote: |
| Arguing with johnnypan is like mud-wrestling a pig. After a while you realize he just enjoys playing in the mud, winning the contest is not the point. |
FU#3 |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
VWGirl
Samba Member
Joined: June 03, 2003
Posts: 2462
Location: Powder Springs, GA
|
| Posted: Thu Sep 11, 2014 7:04 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| notchback wrote: |
| It's been over 6 weeks since you last posted. What has happened? |
Honestly not much. They said they found some more damage. We havent negotiated anything with the insurance co.
My bus got jealous the notch went to get fixed first so had a tree limb smack her... I was gonna take her in to get some other work in the interim.... guess she wasnt happy with that?
_________________
Without love in the dream it will never come true |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
VWGirl
Samba Member
Joined: June 03, 2003
Posts: 2462
Location: Powder Springs, GA
|
| Posted: Thu Oct 16, 2014 4:08 pm Post subject: |
|
|
So to give this an update that isnt much of an update...
Finally spoke to the adjuster today...
He told me i should make a claim through my insurance as the value of the damage is a lot and would be quicker to go through my insurance since i have stated value. I told him my stated value has nothing to do with anything and asked him what they valued it at. He kept throwing out arbitrary numbers and said theyd have to get an independent appraiser out. I told him to do it as if they didnt just fix it id get a lawyer to get them to fix it or sue the guy for the difference. Insurance guy told me i cant sue the guy cause he has insurance... well thats news to me that i cant sue him
Also got a claim number from enterprise since he was in a rental car, but have done nothing with that.... so the battle begins
Seems his tune hasnt changed since day one when he told me to make the claim on my insurance... which again, the guy hit me before i could increase my value....
Looks like there are 9 early notchbacks for sale in the us right now... maybe he will just fly me out to each of them to check them out and see if they are worth buying?
_________________
Without love in the dream it will never come true |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
ALLWAGONS
Samba Member
Joined: June 03, 2000
Posts: 4186
Location: Pasadena CA/DTLA soon China
|
| Posted: Thu Oct 16, 2014 9:06 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| VWGirl wrote: |
So to give this an update that isnt much of an update...
Finally spoke to the adjuster today...
He told me i should make a claim through my insurance as the value of the damage is a lot and would be quicker to go through my insurance since i have stated value. I told him my stated value has nothing to do with anything and asked him what they valued it at. He kept throwing out arbitrary numbers and said theyd have to get an independent appraiser out. I told him to do it as if they didnt just fix it id get a lawyer to get them to fix it or sue the guy for the difference. Insurance guy told me i cant sue the guy cause he has insurance... well thats news to me that i cant sue him
Also got a claim number from enterprise since he was in a rental car, but have done nothing with that.... so the battle begins
Seems his tune hasnt changed since day one when he told me to make the claim on my insurance... which again, the guy hit me before i could increase my value....
Looks like there are 9 early notchbacks for sale in the us right now... maybe he will just fly me out to each of them to check them out and see if they are worth buying? |
I told you so....
If I had been in your situation and I have stated value, I would file a claim with MY insurance, let them pay me/fix my car/ replace my car and let THEM handle it with the other insurance. Your insurance is NOT taking care of you.
_________________
I'd be UNSTOPPABLE if not for Law Enforcement and PHYSICS.
I recycle old cars and parts, other than when I rot, that's as Green as I am going to get.
Thanks to my Tesla driving neighbors, I feel more relaxed driving my SUBURBAN and old VW's.
NON INFLUENCER APPROVED |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Tram
Samba Socialist
Joined: May 02, 2003
Posts: 22711
Location: Still Feelin' the Bern- Once you've felt it you can't un- feel it.
|
| Posted: Thu Oct 16, 2014 9:46 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| ALLWAGONS wrote: |
| VWGirl wrote: |
So to give this an update that isnt much of an update...
Finally spoke to the adjuster today...
He told me i should make a claim through my insurance as the value of the damage is a lot and would be quicker to go through my insurance since i have stated value. I told him my stated value has nothing to do with anything and asked him what they valued it at. He kept throwing out arbitrary numbers and said theyd have to get an independent appraiser out. I told him to do it as if they didnt just fix it id get a lawyer to get them to fix it or sue the guy for the difference. Insurance guy told me i cant sue the guy cause he has insurance... well thats news to me that i cant sue him
Also got a claim number from enterprise since he was in a rental car, but have done nothing with that.... so the battle begins
Seems his tune hasnt changed since day one when he told me to make the claim on my insurance... which again, the guy hit me before i could increase my value....
Looks like there are 9 early notchbacks for sale in the us right now... maybe he will just fly me out to each of them to check them out and see if they are worth buying? |
I told you so....
If I had been in your situation and I have stated value, I would file a claim with MY insurance, let them pay me/fix my car/ replace my car and let THEM handle it with the other insurance. Your insurance is NOT taking care of you. |
We ALL told her all sorts of stuff. Machts nichts.
_________________
Немає виправдання для війни! Я з Україною.
| Bryan67 wrote: |
| Just my hands. And a little lube. No tools. |
To best contact me, please use the EMAIL function in my profile |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
blankmange
Type 3 Darksider
Joined: July 17, 2004
Posts: 11498
Location: Bloßer Stahl-preapocalyptic MidCoast
|
| Posted: Fri Oct 17, 2014 2:54 am Post subject: |
|
|
I said it in July and I'll say it again: this notchback will never be repaired properly...
too many mistakes were made at the point of the accident and afterwards...
there is no point in saying, "I/we told you this would happen and how to prevent it..." because she's proven over the years to ignore good advice and then scream and whine about her own rotten luck....
_________________
póg mo thóin
Certified DHS Technician
Samba Member # 24517 |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
|
