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pupi305
Samba Member
Joined: May 06, 2014
Posts: 69
Location: Miami
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 Posted: Tue Jul 15, 2014 7:37 pm Post subject: Overheating? |
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| So i have driven my bug three times and it seems to be overheating... I bought my car and the engine was blown so i found one on craigslist same year and i bought it i did a complete tune up (oil, filter, cables, rotor, cap, spark plugs, sensors) i cleaned the engine deeply cuz it was filthy and full of gunk so cleaned it good 3-4 times with with degreaser and aluminum acid... I did not change the oil cooler but i did clean it well... Motor runs great while its cool and temp light doesnt go on while i am on the highway but when i get off the gas the temp light goes on and i have to throttle it to shut the light off... When i turned it off i hear it boiling so i know its hot i also feel that it kinda looses power when its hot... My buddy told me to check the dog cage and i did and the insulation was sucked up in the dog cage... Its better but still getting hot! I have read a few articles on temps but cant seem to find a normal answer i shot the left head with a laser temp gun and it was at 289 degrees and like 272 degrees on the right... I do not have the front tin that goes under the pulley could the heat of the exhaust cause the temp to rise inside the engine bay? What should i check? Please help i wanna enjoy my bug and start driving it more... Thanks for all your help! |
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Cusser
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Joined: October 02, 2006
Posts: 31385
Location: Hot Arizona
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| Posted: Tue Jul 15, 2014 8:17 pm Post subject: |
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It's rear tin under the pulley, front is front.
Always fix first what you KNOW is wrong. In this case: rear tin.
Post good photos of your engine compartment.
Also: since you posted in 1958-1967 Forum: is your engine 1600cc or larger (you mentioned doghouse)? does your engine lid have vents or standoffs? It needs those.
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1970 VW (owned since 1972) and 1971 VW Convertible (owned since 1976), second owner of each. The '71 now has the 1835 engine, swapped from the '70. Second owner of each. 1988 Mazda B2200 truck, 1998 Frontier, 2014 Yukon, 2004 Frontier King Cab. All manual transmission except for the Yukon. http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/album_page.php?pic_id=335294 http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/album_page.php?pic_id=335297 |
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pupi305
Samba Member
Joined: May 06, 2014
Posts: 69
Location: Miami
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| Posted: Tue Jul 15, 2014 8:45 pm Post subject: |
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| Cusser wrote: |
It's rear tin under the pulley, front is front.
Always fix first what you KNOW is wrong. In this case: rear tin.
Post good photos of your engine compartment.
Also: since you posted in 1958-1967 Forum: is your engine 1600cc or larger (you mentioned doghouse)? does your engine lid have vents or standoffs? It needs those. |
Thank you for your speedy response! Correct its the rear tin that i dont have on... I will get pics tomorrow! And i believe its a 1200cc due to the stamping on the engine.... |
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drscope
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Joined: February 19, 2007
Posts: 15273
Location: Baltimore, Maryland USA
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| Posted: Wed Jul 16, 2014 7:18 am Post subject: |
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Something you need to visualize in your brain is the cooling system of the air cooled car. It’s really not much different then a water cooled car except that air is the cooling medium in place of water.
A water cooled car has a radiator and hoses that contain and direct the water so it can remove the heat from the engine.
An air cooled car has tin work and rubber seals that contain and direct the cooling air so it can remove heat from the engine.
If a water cooled system springs a leak, it looses water and it’s ability to cool.
If an air cooled system springs a leak, it looses air and it’s ability to cool.
You normally see a leak in a water cooled car because you get a puddle, or you see steam. But in an air cooled car there is no puddle to see, or no steam to see from the cooling air overheating.
So, you need to think about all that tin work and rubber seals. If there are leaks, or holes, you are loosing cooling air.
In this case, without the rear lower tin, what you are doing is about the same as removing the radiator hose from a water cooled car. You have removed part of the cooling system that directs and contains your cooling air and now there is no way for the engine to manage it.
The exhaust system gets hot. Real hot! That piece of tin performs many functions. First it is a barrier for the radiant heat coming off the exhaust system from entering the engine compartment.
Without it, that hot air off the exhaust is able to be sucked up into the engine compartment. Remember, heat raises. And the engine compartment is a low pressure area when the car is moving or the engine is running. So that hot air will try to enter any way it can. Without that tin, you have no barrier to keep it out.
Now you are trying to cool the engine with hot air that has come off of the exhaust and gotten sucked into the cooling fan. So every degree you raise the temperature of the cooling air going in, diminishes the cooling system’s ability to cool the engine going through.
Plus that hotter air that has been used for cooling is also getting dumped out under the car where it again gets sucked up by the cooling fan. So you are first heating the cooling air with the exhaust system, then heating it more as it tries to cool the engine and then when that hot air is dumped out, it gets recirculated back through the cooling system again where it picks up more heat.
It’s pretty difficult to keep the engine cool when the air you are using to try to cool it with is constantly going up in temperature.
Each little rubber seal and piece of tin perform a very important job of keeping the cooling air going where it is supposed to go and separating it from the hotter exhaust and used air. If anything in that system is not in place or working properly, the only result is higher temperatures. And higher temperature$ lead to a $horter engine life and engine failure$.
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ThingBeast
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Joined: January 30, 2012
Posts: 363
Location: Texas
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| Posted: Wed Jul 16, 2014 11:20 am Post subject: |
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Pupi, like Dr said, start with making sure all ur rubber and tin in its place, that's the most important and easiest fix. Next, be sure that the fan is clear of debris like tar boards, keep them fastened correctly so it doesn't get sucked into the fan. Next, get rid of any chrome tin u may have. Chrome tends to keep the heat instead of dispersing it. Next, u may want to prop up the bottom of the deck lid to provide more air flow. That last step shouldn't be necessary if u drive a stocker, but may help.
I drive a 61 standard bug with a 2007cc engine and an external oil cooler. In the Houston summer heat, my temp gauge never goes over 175 degrees. Just my 2 cents worth. |
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pupi305
Samba Member
Joined: May 06, 2014
Posts: 69
Location: Miami
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| Posted: Wed Jul 16, 2014 1:17 pm Post subject: |
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| drscope wrote: |
Something you need to visualize in your brain is the cooling system of the air cooled car. It’s really not much different then a water cooled car except that air is the cooling medium in place of water.
A water cooled car has a radiator and hoses that contain and direct the water so it can remove the heat from the engine.
An air cooled car has tin work and rubber seals that contain and direct the cooling air so it can remove heat from the engine.
If a water cooled system springs a leak, it looses water and it’s ability to cool.
If an air cooled system springs a leak, it looses air and it’s ability to cool.
You normally see a leak in a water cooled car because you get a puddle, or you see steam. But in an air cooled car there is no puddle to see, or no steam to see from the cooling air overheating.
So, you need to think about all that tin work and rubber seals. If there are leaks, or holes, you are loosing cooling air.
In this case, without the rear lower tin, what you are doing is about the same as removing the radiator hose from a water cooled car. You have removed part of the cooling system that directs and contains your cooling air and now there is no way for the engine to manage it.
The exhaust system gets hot. Real hot! That piece of tin performs many functions. First it is a barrier for the radiant heat coming off the exhaust system from entering the engine compartment.
Without it, that hot air off the exhaust is able to be sucked up into the engine compartment. Remember, heat raises. And the engine compartment is a low pressure area when the car is moving or the engine is running. So that hot air will try to enter any way it can. Without that tin, you have no barrier to keep it out.
Now you are trying to cool the engine with hot air that has come off of the exhaust and gotten sucked into the cooling fan. So every degree you raise the temperature of the cooling air going in, diminishes the cooling system’s ability to cool the engine going through.
Plus that hotter air that has been used for cooling is also getting dumped out under the car where it again gets sucked up by the cooling fan. So you are first heating the cooling air with the exhaust system, then heating it more as it tries to cool the engine and then when that hot air is dumped out, it gets recirculated back through the cooling system again where it picks up more heat.
It’s pretty difficult to keep the engine cool when the air you are using to try to cool it with is constantly going up in temperature.
Each little rubber seal and piece of tin perform a very important job of keeping the cooling air going where it is supposed to go and separating it from the hotter exhaust and used air. If anything in that system is not in place or working properly, the only result is higher temperatures. And higher temperature$ lead to a $horter engine life and engine failure$. |
Thanks for your time! i am going to look for the studs that im missing and i am thinking of buying all new rubber seals since they are old and hard and i got to figure out how they all seal against the tins because i know right now ther arent placed correctly because they are all shoved in there flipped upwards towards the inside of the engine compartment. |
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pupi305
Samba Member
Joined: May 06, 2014
Posts: 69
Location: Miami
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| Posted: Wed Jul 16, 2014 1:19 pm Post subject: |
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| ThingBeast wrote: |
Pupi, like Dr said, start with making sure all ur rubber and tin in its place, that's the most important and easiest fix. Next, be sure that the fan is clear of debris like tar boards, keep them fastened correctly so it doesn't get sucked into the fan. Next, get rid of any chrome tin u may have. Chrome tends to keep the heat instead of dispersing it. Next, u may want to prop up the bottom of the deck lid to provide more air flow. That last step shouldn't be necessary if u drive a stocker, but may help.
I drive a 61 standard bug with a 2007cc engine and an external oil cooler. In the Houston summer heat, my temp gauge never goes over 175 degrees. Just my 2 cents worth. |
I was also leaning on adding an oil cooler with electrical fan to help with the heat... also they told me an external oil filter helps with engine temp also. |
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Towel Rail
Horizontally Opposed
Joined: April 15, 2005
Posts: 4622
Location: SE CR IA US NA PE
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| Posted: Wed Jul 16, 2014 1:33 pm Post subject: |
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| pupi305 wrote: |
| I was also leaning on adding an oil cooler with electrical fan to help with the heat... also they told me an external oil filter helps with engine temp also. |
Don't bother with band-aids until all of your tin and seals are in place.
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pupi305
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Joined: May 06, 2014
Posts: 69
Location: Miami
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| Posted: Wed Jul 16, 2014 2:29 pm Post subject: |
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| Towel Rail wrote: |
| pupi305 wrote: |
| I was also leaning on adding an oil cooler with electrical fan to help with the heat... also they told me an external oil filter helps with engine temp also. |
Don't bother with band-aids until all of your tin and seals are in place. |
Ya going to order all new seals and put in the missing tin! Hope this will stop the over heating!!! Kinda sucks i gotta pull out the engine again  but i want her to be reliable... The good thing about this is that all the feedback goes back towards rubber seals and tins.... |
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pupi305
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Joined: May 06, 2014
Posts: 69
Location: Miami
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| Posted: Wed Jul 16, 2014 2:31 pm Post subject: |
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| Other than putting on tins and seals is there anything i could do to cure the overheating? |
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Slimwonder
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Joined: May 29, 2013
Posts: 94
Location: Anywhere but Oregon and California.
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| Posted: Wed Jul 16, 2014 3:13 pm Post subject: |
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You could pull the oil cooler off and check it's not blocked.
Post some pics up and we can see if anything is missing |
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smkn_vw
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Joined: August 22, 2004
Posts: 809
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| Posted: Wed Jul 16, 2014 5:57 pm Post subject: |
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| pupi305 wrote: |
| Other than putting on tins and seals is there anything i could do to cure the overheating? |
Your next hot item on the list are your heads, clean out gunk or anything stuck between the fins to allow good air flow, be careful those fins will snap if too much force. The tins and seals will do alot, you can also check your distributor timing is not too advanced and check that you have good rpm's at idle to keep the fan moving.
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"So didja?" -Bob Hoover |
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pupi305
Samba Member
Joined: May 06, 2014
Posts: 69
Location: Miami
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| Posted: Wed Jul 16, 2014 6:13 pm Post subject: |
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| Slimwonder wrote: |
You could pull the oil cooler off and check it's not blocked.
Post some pics up and we can see if anything is missing |
Please excuse the rag and bag the fuel fumes are coming out of somewhere and i cant figure it out and the gas smell is getting inside my house wish is driving me CRAZY!!! And i already changed the fuel cap gasket
This is what concerns me because these mounts the threaded ports are alligned and on the manifold they are kind of on a slant/angle as you can see. |
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KTPhil 
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Joined: April 06, 2006
Posts: 34022
Location: Conejo Valley, CA
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| Posted: Wed Jul 16, 2014 6:51 pm Post subject: |
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| pupi305 wrote: |
This is what concerns me because these mounts the threaded ports are alligned and on the manifold they are kind of on a slant/angle as you can see. |
The angled pair os bolts holds the heat riser to the muffler. The pair of threaded holes has nothing to do with this. There is an additional small tin plate on either side that seals around the heat riser pipe ends and those are held with two shroud screws. |
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drscope
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Joined: February 19, 2007
Posts: 15273
Location: Baltimore, Maryland USA
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| Posted: Thu Jul 17, 2014 8:34 am Post subject: |
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Just want to point out a few things from this photo already mentioned. First and most obvious is the fact that with this rear tin missing you have a BIG hole allowing the hot air from the exhaust to come up into the engine compartment and cooling fan.
But if you look on the left side in this picture, you can also see the fins on the cylinder head. And since this photo is shot from the engine compartment, it is also obvious that the heat coming off the cylinder heads is also able to raise into the engine compartment and into the cooling fan.
And those heads get HOT! REAL HOT!
Plus all the air used to cool the heads is exhausted under the heads through your sled tins. This normally goes out under the engine, but since you are missing the rear tin, that hot air is also getting sucked up into the cooling fan.
So now that you actually have a visual from the photo of the problem, here's a few other things to consider. First, they made MILLIONS of these cars and sold them all over the world with very few changes from one region to another.
So cars that went to cold areas were very similar to those that went to the desert.
This would not have been possible if the system didn't work, or didn't work well. So returning your system back to stock and making sure all the little parts are there should solve your problem.
There is no need for an after market external cooler. And in most cases they actually cause more problems then they cure. Additional plumbing often complicates the issue and opens things up to more leaks. Plus a lot of folks never really monitor the oil temperatures once installed. And often the result is the oil never gets warm enough to really be able to lubricate as well as it should.
We have been programed to believe hot oil temps are bad, and they are as long as they reach a certain point. But cold oil temps are actually much worse. The oil needs to get up to operating temps in order to actually do it's job well.
Main point here is that you need to get your system back to stock and make sure everything is there. Once you do that, I think your high temperature issues will be gone and there will be no need for additional band aides.
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rgdedge
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pupi305
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Joined: May 06, 2014
Posts: 69
Location: Miami
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| Posted: Sun Jul 20, 2014 7:19 am Post subject: |
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| So yesterday I put on the rear tin and I did notice a greater difference but still oil pressure/temp light turns on when I get off the highway... My buddy played with the timing and we noticed that we couldn't get the timing right and noticed it was because there was a vacuum leak on the carb so we fix that adjusted the timing and car even ran better so I drove her around the block went to the gas station and light was off a little light Flicker here and there but that's normal.... So I decided to change the oil again because after 4 times of driving the car it was dark and knowing that the engine was sitting around I went ahead and changed it again and sure enough it had a lil sludge... So I drove it home and when I got off the highway the stupid light was on again and car felt hot again where I couldn't touch the dip stick. My next step is I am going to do the timing right with a timing light and remove the oil pressure relief valve and install a new one I bought at my local parts store that it's suppose to increase oil pressure hopefully that would fix the issue... I really want to get to the button of this! |
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Eric&Barb
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Joined: September 19, 2004
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Location: Olympia Wash Rinse & Repeat
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| Posted: Sun Jul 20, 2014 8:22 am Post subject: |
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If the engine sat for enough time for all the crud in the oil to drop out of suspension, it sat long enough to get micro-corrosion in the engine. So now that corrosion must be worn/polished out, just like a new engine must wear in causes more friction and HEAT. This is best by driving in town stop go conditions and only do 15-30 minute trips with at least 15 minutes between trips for first 300 to 400 miles. Change oil every time you can tell it is gotten dirty on the dipstick or every 50 miles whichever comes first.
Just taking it up on the freeway can loosen all the sludge with the extra heat and it will avalanche thru the oil pump and clog up bearings and/or cooler passages. BTDT.
Adding an oil filter/pump will help greatly to protect the bearings from damage. CB Maxi 2 filter pumps are best made today on the aftermarket. The stock Mexican one is possibly even better. Either way you must make sure pump matches cam gear (dished or flat) used.
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grandpa pete
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pupi305
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Joined: May 06, 2014
Posts: 69
Location: Miami
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| Posted: Sun Jul 20, 2014 9:42 am Post subject: |
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| Eric&Barb wrote: |
If the engine sat for enough time for all the crud in the oil to drop out of suspension, it sat long enough to get micro-corrosion in the engine. So now that corrosion must be worn/polished out, just like a new engine must wear in causes more friction and HEAT. This is best by driving in town stop go conditions and only do 15-30 minute trips with at least 15 minutes between trips for first 300 to 400 miles. Change oil every time you can tell it is gotten dirty on the dipstick or every 50 miles whichever comes first.
Just taking it up on the freeway can loosen all the sludge with the extra heat and it will avalanche thru the oil pump and clog up bearings and/or cooler passages. BTDT.
Adding an oil filter/pump will help greatly to protect the bearings from damage. CB Maxi 2 filter pumps are best made today on the aftermarket. The stock Mexican one is possibly even better. Either way you must make sure pump matches cam gear (dished or flat) used. |
Awesome thanks I just finished installing the oil pressure booster kit I saw someone with a similar issue install one and fix his issue.... I took off my fuel tank today as the darn fumes were getting inside my home and breathing that isn't healthy I changed the fuel cap gasket and smell still consist... I am going to try adding an extra gasket and also I noticed some fuel at the bottom of the tank where the fitting goes attached I am going to see if the sell a new piece with gasket so I can re-install and hopefully that resolves my issue on that part... As far as the timing my father in law is going to bring his timing light from work to put it on point and hopefully my issue starts going away... It just bugs me that it started working fine with the dirty oil unless maybe I didn't drive it enough I was super frustrated last night cuz all my buddies that got me into the "bug life" we're going to a monthly show and I was eagered to take my bug and on the way home the heating started happening and a noise on the rear brakes I took the drum off and it was the right pad spring that popped off and was making a crazy noise so I have that apart also waiting for my wife to get back home to go buy new pin and spring to install and build that back up.... I gave up on the car last night but woke up inspired again and thanks to you guys and my buddies looking to get her all ready for a show august 9. |
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