Hello! Log in or Register   |  Help  |  Donate  |  Buy Shirts See all banner ads | Advertise on TheSamba.com  
TheSamba.com
 
36hp vs 40hp warm-up control ring rod differences (I.e length)
Page: 1, 2  Next
Forum Index -> Beetle - 1958-1967 Share: Facebook Twitter
Reply to topic
Print View
Quick sort: Show newest posts on top | Show oldest posts on top View previous topic :: View next topic  
Author Message
remerus
Samba Member


Joined: March 02, 2014
Posts: 109

remerus is offline 

PostPosted: Tue Jul 22, 2014 2:24 pm    Post subject: 36hp vs 40hp warm-up control ring rod differences (I.e length) Reply with quote

Hi Chaps,

I have searched the hell out of air control, control ring, thermostat etc...


The best I could come up with was that one person eluded to the control ring rods between the 36hp and 40hp being different lengths, the 40hp being longer. If so cans someone enlighten me to the differences in length please.
And any other differences in the control ring setups in general would be a great help.

A bit of background I have a Australian 63 beetle which still had the control ring setup. and I am trying to restore that setup to my bug.

Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


Cheers Chris
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Gallery Classifieds Feedback
remerus
Samba Member


Joined: March 02, 2014
Posts: 109

remerus is offline 

PostPosted: Wed Jul 23, 2014 2:16 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Anyone? Confused
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Gallery Classifieds Feedback
79SuperVert
Samba Member


Joined: May 31, 2002
Posts: 9758
Location: Elizabeth, NJ & La Isla Del Encanto
79SuperVert is offline 

PostPosted: Wed Jul 23, 2014 6:08 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I guess you saw this thread, which seems to address a lot of the differences, so what questions remain unanswered?

http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=201996&highlight=control+ring
_________________
Central Jersey VW Society

Wanted: Art Collins VW (Savannah, Georgia) items - license plate surrounds and other items. Also ivory "AM", "FM" and "SW" buttons for a US Blaupunkt Frankfurt.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Gallery Classifieds Feedback
remerus
Samba Member


Joined: March 02, 2014
Posts: 109

remerus is offline 

PostPosted: Wed Jul 23, 2014 10:04 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

79SuperVert wrote:
I guess you saw this thread, which seems to address a lot of the differences, so what questions remain unanswered?

http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=201996&highlight=control+ring


Thanks for the reply 79supervert, that is one of the threads yes.

I want the actual length of the 40hp rod as I do not have one at hand to measure myself. I find that a lot of sellers don't know what They are selling half of the time so it would be nice to be able to discern between the two having a known length of at least one of the rods so I can differentiate.

I also wanted to clarify that they were indeed different lengths as the thread you mention was the only place on the site ( at least that I could find ) that mentions any reference to length at all, where as any other information I have searched in the past has mentioning multiple times so the second opinion is available to me. Another point might be that anyone who finds themselves needing this info in future can have access to it with relative ease.. No?


Last edited by remerus on Thu Jul 24, 2014 2:19 am; edited 2 times in total
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Gallery Classifieds Feedback
EverettB Premium Member
Administrator


Joined: April 11, 2000
Posts: 69733
Location: Phoenix Metro
EverettB is offline 

PostPosted: Wed Jul 23, 2014 10:34 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I don't have one to measure that I know for a fact is correct for a 40hp.

The ones I have saved as 36hp (they have correct 36hp thermostats attached) are approx. 184mm.
I have some other loose rods that look the same but are 194mm.

So maybe the longer ones are 40hp?
_________________
How to Post Photos
Everett Barnes - [email protected] | My wanted ads
"Water is the only drink for a wise man" | "Communication prevents complaints"
Stop dead photo links! Post your photos to The Samba Gallery!
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail Visit poster's website Facebook Instagram Gallery Classifieds Feedback
remerus
Samba Member


Joined: March 02, 2014
Posts: 109

remerus is offline 

PostPosted: Thu Jul 24, 2014 9:19 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

EverettB wrote:
I don't have one to measure that I know for a fact is correct for a 40hp.

The ones I have saved as 36hp (they have correct 36hp thermostats attached) are approx. 184mm.
I have some other loose rods that look the same but are 194mm.

So maybe the longer ones are 40hp?


Thanks for that info EverettB I will post my findings when I get the two I ordered in the post.

Chris
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Gallery Classifieds Feedback
EverettB Premium Member
Administrator


Joined: April 11, 2000
Posts: 69733
Location: Phoenix Metro
EverettB is offline 

PostPosted: Thu Jul 24, 2014 10:16 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I found notes from someone else saying the 40hp stale air and 40 fresh air are also different but I don't know if that is true or the difference.
_________________
How to Post Photos
Everett Barnes - [email protected] | My wanted ads
"Water is the only drink for a wise man" | "Communication prevents complaints"
Stop dead photo links! Post your photos to The Samba Gallery!
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail Visit poster's website Facebook Instagram Gallery Classifieds Feedback
remerus
Samba Member


Joined: March 02, 2014
Posts: 109

remerus is offline 

PostPosted: Fri Jul 25, 2014 7:17 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

EverettB wrote:
I found notes from someone else saying the 40hp stale air and 40 fresh air are also different but I don't know if that is true or the difference.


Cheers mate. I am still searching though the net for an answer but if you come up with anything else in the meantime please let me know.

Chris
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Gallery Classifieds Feedback
Aussie63
Samba Member


Joined: January 11, 2012
Posts: 51
Location: UK
Aussie63 is offline 

PostPosted: Sat Jul 26, 2014 3:45 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I have a stock '63 Aussie bug still with its original 40hp engine. I'm using the control ring setup. Had no idea there were different lengths?! The one I'm using came from a 36hp engine but it works perfectly, everything is aligned and fits as per the Bentley manual. So my suggestion is just to use what you've got, it won't affect the performance of the thermostat.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Classifieds Feedback
remerus
Samba Member


Joined: March 02, 2014
Posts: 109

remerus is offline 

PostPosted: Sat Jul 26, 2014 6:08 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Aussie63 wrote:
I have a stock '63 Aussie bug still with its original 40hp engine. I'm using the control ring setup. Had no idea there were different lengths?! The one I'm using came from a 36hp engine but it works perfectly, everything is aligned and fits as per the Bentley manual. So my suggestion is just to use what you've got, it won't affect the performance of the thermostat.


thanks mate I'll give it a try. I would still like to get to the bottom of the above questions.


just off topic slightly did you notice any differences with your 63 after you installed the setup of your 40?
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Gallery Classifieds Feedback
Aussie63
Samba Member


Joined: January 11, 2012
Posts: 51
Location: UK
Aussie63 is offline 

PostPosted: Sun Jul 27, 2014 2:40 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

No problem. And yes differences are it doesn't hesitate in the colder weather, runs a bit quieter, you get heating quicker in the car and obviously I'm prolonging the life of my engine Smile
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Classifieds Feedback
EverettB Premium Member
Administrator


Joined: April 11, 2000
Posts: 69733
Location: Phoenix Metro
EverettB is offline 

PostPosted: Thu Sep 25, 2014 10:14 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

EverettB wrote:
The ones I have saved as 36hp (they have correct 36hp thermostats attached) are approx. 184mm.


Popping this up to say this was verified as correct by another member.
7.25" / 184mm rod is 36hp.
_________________
How to Post Photos
Everett Barnes - [email protected] | My wanted ads
"Water is the only drink for a wise man" | "Communication prevents complaints"
Stop dead photo links! Post your photos to The Samba Gallery!
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail Visit poster's website Facebook Instagram Gallery Classifieds Feedback
remerus
Samba Member


Joined: March 02, 2014
Posts: 109

remerus is offline 

PostPosted: Fri Sep 26, 2014 9:37 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thank you for the update and the help Everett and everyone else.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Gallery Classifieds Feedback
herbie1200
Samba Member


Joined: April 27, 2006
Posts: 832
Location: Rome - Italy
herbie1200 is offline 

PostPosted: Fri Dec 02, 2016 12:47 am    Post subject: Re: 36hp vs 40hp Control ring rod differences (I.e length) Reply with quote

I resume this old post because the argument is very singular

On my 6V 1200cc I exchanged the "ring" fan shroud with the "flap" shroud from a '70 12V 1200cc, mantaining the original 6V generator with its flange.

All ok except for 2 issues:

1) I had to cut 4 small 'U' on engine tin to accomodate flap rods

2) thermostat (well working alone) seems to have difficulty to fully pulling the rod to open flaps.

So my two questions:

1) could be rod lenght different between "ring" fan shroud and flaps fan shroud? (both from a 1200cc - fresh air)

2) can I simply cut a 4-5mm from the rod threaded end, it will be enough, and remount all or should I re-thread the rod end?

Thanks
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Gallery Classifieds Feedback
EverettB Premium Member
Administrator


Joined: April 11, 2000
Posts: 69733
Location: Phoenix Metro
EverettB is offline 

PostPosted: Fri Dec 02, 2016 8:28 am    Post subject: Re: 36hp vs 40hp Control ring rod differences (I.e length) Reply with quote

Yes, I believe they are different but I don't know the exact measurements.

I think the shape is different too?

This may help you
http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/album_page.php?pic_id=1020032

Or this
http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=609125
_________________
How to Post Photos
Everett Barnes - [email protected] | My wanted ads
"Water is the only drink for a wise man" | "Communication prevents complaints"
Stop dead photo links! Post your photos to The Samba Gallery!


Last edited by EverettB on Wed Mar 01, 2017 4:23 pm; edited 1 time in total
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail Visit poster's website Facebook Instagram Gallery Classifieds Feedback
tasb
The Distributor Distributor


Joined: April 27, 2002
Posts: 6371
Location: Pentwater, Michigan
tasb is offline 

PostPosted: Fri Dec 02, 2016 9:06 am    Post subject: Re: 36hp vs 40hp Control ring rod differences (I.e length) Reply with quote

Sorry I couldn't come up with a metric ruler, I'm in a bit of a hurry this mroning. perhaps this will help?

Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.

_________________
Roads Scholar &
1957 Kombi low mileage 36 hp governor equipped M 178 Slow Drag Winner 2014, 2015, 2018

1965 hardtop Deluxe Microbus owned since 1990 M 620 factory 12 v 1500cc

1961 (October)Single Cab- Road Trip Workhorse
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail Visit poster's website Gallery Classifieds Feedback
tasb
The Distributor Distributor


Joined: April 27, 2002
Posts: 6371
Location: Pentwater, Michigan
tasb is offline 

PostPosted: Fri Dec 02, 2016 10:18 am    Post subject: Re: 36hp vs 40hp Control ring rod differences (I.e length) Reply with quote

And just in case we are talking about the rods that attach directly to the thermostat:

Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.

_________________
Roads Scholar &
1957 Kombi low mileage 36 hp governor equipped M 178 Slow Drag Winner 2014, 2015, 2018

1965 hardtop Deluxe Microbus owned since 1990 M 620 factory 12 v 1500cc

1961 (October)Single Cab- Road Trip Workhorse
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail Visit poster's website Gallery Classifieds Feedback
herbie1200
Samba Member


Joined: April 27, 2006
Posts: 832
Location: Rome - Italy
herbie1200 is offline 

PostPosted: Mon Dec 05, 2016 6:28 am    Post subject: Re: 36hp vs 40hp Control ring rod differences (I.e length) Reply with quote

Thank you, good pictures.

From what I see the rods to the thermostat (talking about them) look very different so there is no chance to exchange one with each other.

So my problem (thermostat does not fully close flaps) is due to a tired spring or a rod deformation.

I'm going to shorten it...
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Gallery Classifieds Feedback
tasb
The Distributor Distributor


Joined: April 27, 2002
Posts: 6371
Location: Pentwater, Michigan
tasb is offline 

PostPosted: Mon Dec 05, 2016 10:06 am    Post subject: Re: 36hp vs 40hp Control ring rod differences (I.e length) Reply with quote

I had to search through my stash to find thermostat rods that were not bent for one reason or another.
_________________
Roads Scholar &
1957 Kombi low mileage 36 hp governor equipped M 178 Slow Drag Winner 2014, 2015, 2018

1965 hardtop Deluxe Microbus owned since 1990 M 620 factory 12 v 1500cc

1961 (October)Single Cab- Road Trip Workhorse
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail Visit poster's website Gallery Classifieds Feedback
hazetguy
Samba Member


Joined: April 06, 2001
Posts: 10773
Location: iT StiNgeD iTseLf tO dEAd
hazetguy is offline 

PostPosted: Wed Mar 01, 2017 12:35 pm    Post subject: Re: 36hp vs 40hp Control ring rod differences (I.e length) Reply with quote

Tim, I have no idea what the lower rod in your picture fits. can't say I've ever seen one with such a dramatic bent portion at the bottom. how would it attach to a thermostat bellows?

for future reference:

Comparing 36hp to 40hp stale air thermostat parts.
Most parts are not interchangeable due to dimensional differences.
36hp on the top, 40hp on the bottom.
Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.



Aside from the thermostat throttle ring and its mounting hardware, and the thermostat bellows (for the most part), these are the pieces that are interchangeable between 36hp and 40hp:
Tension spring, mounting hardware for pivot piece, "C" clip that holds the throttle ring pivot piece to the stud, 15mm long bolt and flat washer for the thermostat bellows.
Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


At a quick glance, the pivot piece looks the same. However, the arm is offset differently between 36hp and 40hp.
Theoretically you can use a 36hp arm on a 40hp, but not the other way around (it will hit the engine tin).
36hp on the top, 40hp on the bottom.
Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


Dimensionally, the thermostat throttle ring pivot piece is longer on a 40hp.
Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


Overall length of the throttle ring pivot stud is longer on a 40hp. Threaded part is nominally longer, but the non threaded portion is longer.
Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.



36hp is shorter, and the rod is fairly straight. It also has a shorter bend at the bottom.
40hp is longer, and incorporates more bends in it.
36hp on LEFT, 40hp on RIGHT.
Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.

_________________
thebucket: I invested in hoodride, now DBD won't return my call?
hazetguy: invested?
thebucket: Yeah Haze, its where people put money into a company in hopes of a return on their money
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Gallery Classifieds Feedback
Display posts from previous:   
Reply to topic    Forum Index -> Beetle - 1958-1967 All times are Mountain Standard Time/Pacific Daylight Savings Time
Page: 1, 2  Next
Page 1 of 2

 
Jump to:  
You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot vote in polls in this forum

About | Help! | Advertise | Donate | Premium Membership | Privacy/Terms of Use | Contact Us | Site Map
Copyright © 1996-2023, Everett Barnes. All Rights Reserved.
Not affiliated with or sponsored by Volkswagen of America | Forum powered by phpBB
Links to eBay or other vendor sites may be affiliate links where the site receives compensation.