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mainexile
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Joined: May 20, 2014
Posts: 174
Location: Strafford, NH
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 Posted: Sat Jul 26, 2014 11:04 am Post subject: Pertronix Flame-Thrower Distributor Static Timing |
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Well, I decided to go the electronic ignition route and bought a Pertronix Flame-Thrower SVDA distributor (D186504). Getting ready to pull the 009 and remand it to the "just-in-case" box. But before I do, I've read horror stories of people "frying" the Ignitor modules right out of the box, and I can't afford to do that. Sooooo...does anyone know if you can hook up a 12V static timing light to this new distributor? I want to set the timing for the initial 7.5 degrees BTDC, but I don't want to fry the circuitry. Opinions, please? Thanks.
Steve
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1974 Super Beetle Convertible, 1600 DP.
2016 Honda Accord Coupe (wife's)
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Glenn 
Mr. 010
Joined: December 25, 2001
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| Posted: Sat Jul 26, 2014 11:11 am Post subject: |
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What does the instructions say to do?
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Glenn
74 Beetle Specs | 74 Beetle Restoration | 2180cc Engine
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mainexile
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Joined: May 20, 2014
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Location: Strafford, NH
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| Posted: Sat Jul 26, 2014 11:16 am Post subject: |
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Instructions have nothing about timing - they only discuss installation and power procedures.
_________________
First, make sure it will stop; then make sure it will go; finally, make it pretty.
1974 Super Beetle Convertible, 1600 DP.
2016 Honda Accord Coupe (wife's)
2006 GMC Canyon Crew Cab (mine)
1978 Grady White Pacer 174 Mercruiser 470 |
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Glenn
Mr. 010
Joined: December 25, 2001
Posts: 76939
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| Posted: Sat Jul 26, 2014 11:28 am Post subject: |
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As far as I know it's a copy of the Bosch 034, so set the timing the same.
If you're concerned about damaging it while static timing, I would call their customer support and ask. Unless you rather trust people on the internet that you don't know.
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Glenn
74 Beetle Specs | 74 Beetle Restoration | 2180cc Engine
"You may not get what you pay for, but you always pay for what you get"
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EvileNV
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Joined: August 03, 2010
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Location: Boulder City, NV
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| Posted: Sat Jul 26, 2014 12:19 pm Post subject: |
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Good answer!
When I installed mine the timing was way off and it took me several tries to get it just to run! Then I set the timing, so I don't know how you could fry the unit easily... I wouldn't be overly paranoid about toasting it as long as your power and ground are hooked up correctly on the coil.
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DadsOld74
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Joined: October 01, 2013
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Location: Cody, Wyoming USA
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| Posted: Sat Jul 26, 2014 2:16 pm Post subject: |
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I heard the same horror stories, and I hope they're not true. I can avoid having the ignition on for static timing, but I'm afraid I'm just going to leave they key on by accident and fry it.
I just stuck mine in and tried to start the car.
When it didn't start, I shut the key off, went back and advanced it a little.
It fired right up, and I used my timing gun to get it set right.
Works great! What an improvement over my worn-out DVDA ... which is under the back seat for that sad day when I fry my electronic ignition module and still have to get home  .
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--Brian ('74 standard bug)
"If one does not fail at times, then one has not challenged himself." - Ferdinand Porsche |
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mainexile
Samba Member
Joined: May 20, 2014
Posts: 174
Location: Strafford, NH
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| Posted: Sat Jul 26, 2014 6:36 pm Post subject: |
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| Glenn wrote: |
As far as I know it's a copy of the Bosch 034, so set the timing the same.
If you're concerned about damaging it while static timing, I would call their customer support and ask. Unless you rather trust people on the internet that you don't know. |
Thanks, Glenn. I sent an email to their customer service, but they're not open on weekends. I'll probably try to eyeball 10 degrees, see if I can get it running, and put my strobe on it.
_________________
First, make sure it will stop; then make sure it will go; finally, make it pretty.
1974 Super Beetle Convertible, 1600 DP.
2016 Honda Accord Coupe (wife's)
2006 GMC Canyon Crew Cab (mine)
1978 Grady White Pacer 174 Mercruiser 470 |
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DadsOld74
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Joined: October 01, 2013
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Location: Cody, Wyoming USA
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| Posted: Sat Jul 26, 2014 8:57 pm Post subject: |
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Let us know what you find out. I'd love to know how careful I have to be with this thing.
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--Brian ('74 standard bug)
"If one does not fail at times, then one has not challenged himself." - Ferdinand Porsche |
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mainexile
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Posts: 174
Location: Strafford, NH
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| Posted: Mon Jul 28, 2014 6:01 am Post subject: |
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| DadsOld74 wrote: |
| Let us know what you find out. I'd love to know how careful I have to be with this thing. |
I found a note on Rob & Dave's Aircooled site (http://www.vw-resource.com/longblock.html#dizzy) that warns against using a static timing light on distributors with electronic ignition:
"f. Time the distributor (SVDA or 009) statically. (See our procedure for static timing.)
Note: If you have electronic ignition installed in the distributor, it will not be possible to time the distributor statically. Cylinder #1 at TDC, the TDC notch on the crankcase pulley aligned with the split in the crankcase, and the rotor pointed directly at the #1 notch in the distributor rim will provide timing that is close enough to start the engine. Then, with the engine running, you should time the distributor with a stroboscopic timing light. (See our procedure for timing with a strobe.)"
Apparently with electronic ignition modules, there's a risk of destroying them by connecting a static timing light across the circuit (parallel resistance with constant voltage = higher current flow?)
_________________
First, make sure it will stop; then make sure it will go; finally, make it pretty.
1974 Super Beetle Convertible, 1600 DP.
2016 Honda Accord Coupe (wife's)
2006 GMC Canyon Crew Cab (mine)
1978 Grady White Pacer 174 Mercruiser 470 |
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Mr.Duncan
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Joined: May 12, 2012
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Location: Houston, TX
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| Posted: Mon Jul 28, 2014 6:13 am Post subject: |
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With the engine on TDC #1 (with TDC on the pulley aligned with the split in the case.
I would then rotate the distributor to where the center of the rotor is pointing towards the notch in the distributor case. (the little line)
Then I would assemble everything, Start it up.
And then set the timing for max advance @3500 rpm with the vac hose off and disconnected at 30* BTDC.
Shut it down, tighten the clamp. re-check and make sure your timing did not change.
Then hook the vac hose back up.
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mainexile
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Joined: May 20, 2014
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Location: Strafford, NH
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| Posted: Mon Jul 28, 2014 4:32 pm Post subject: |
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Well, I removed the 009, but sometime in the past, someone had bunged up the dizzy clamp. I'll have a new clamp in the morning, so I'll install the Pertronix and see if I can time it up. Installed a carb kit since I had extra time today. Hopefully, all will go well tomorrow.
_________________
First, make sure it will stop; then make sure it will go; finally, make it pretty.
1974 Super Beetle Convertible, 1600 DP.
2016 Honda Accord Coupe (wife's)
2006 GMC Canyon Crew Cab (mine)
1978 Grady White Pacer 174 Mercruiser 470 |
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mainexile
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Joined: May 20, 2014
Posts: 174
Location: Strafford, NH
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| Posted: Tue Jul 29, 2014 10:47 am Post subject: Update |
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Installed the new dizzy, and I was surprised to see that the "line" on the dizzy's rim was at the 2 o'clock position rather than 5 o'clock where I expected it to be. Car will not start at all even after turning the dizzy about 15 degrees in both directions. I pulled the coil wire from the rotor cap and held it near a good ground, and there was a good spark. Getting fuel, so I have to believe that the problem is with initial (static) timing. Called Pertronix and they said that you CAN use a static timing light provided that you don't leave the key in the "on" position for too long (no explanation of what "too long" means). If anyone has an idea, I'd be happy to hear it. Thanks.
Steve
_________________
First, make sure it will stop; then make sure it will go; finally, make it pretty.
1974 Super Beetle Convertible, 1600 DP.
2016 Honda Accord Coupe (wife's)
2006 GMC Canyon Crew Cab (mine)
1978 Grady White Pacer 174 Mercruiser 470 |
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Randy in Maine
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Joined: August 03, 2003
Posts: 34890
Location: The Beach
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| Posted: Tue Jul 29, 2014 12:16 pm Post subject: |
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| Keep in mind that the rotor postion of the #1 cylinder spark plug wire on a 009 is 90º from where it would be on a SVDA. 009s are just wierd that way. |
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Eurobug
Sofa King
Joined: May 18, 2007
Posts: 376
Location: Auburn, WA
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| Posted: Tue Jul 29, 2014 12:57 pm Post subject: |
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| Randy in Maine wrote: |
| Keep in mind that the rotor postion of the #1 cylinder spark plug wire on a 009 is 90º from where it would be on a SVDA. 009s are just wierd that way. |
True story, I found this out recently. Don't set up your plug wires like you did with the 009. #1 plug port on the distributor cap is almost pointing right at the #1 cylinder with the 034. |
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mainexile
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Location: Strafford, NH
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| Posted: Tue Jul 29, 2014 4:28 pm Post subject: |
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| Randy in Maine wrote: |
| Keep in mind that the rotor postion of the #1 cylinder spark plug wire on a 009 is 90º from where it would be on a SVDA. 009s are just wierd that way. |
Thanks, Randy. I tried several combinations of timing and carb adjustments, but it won't fire at all. Now I have the battery on the charger since I ran it down trying to get this thing to kick over. I'll let the battery slow-charge for a couple more hours, then try it again in the morning.
_________________
First, make sure it will stop; then make sure it will go; finally, make it pretty.
1974 Super Beetle Convertible, 1600 DP.
2016 Honda Accord Coupe (wife's)
2006 GMC Canyon Crew Cab (mine)
1978 Grady White Pacer 174 Mercruiser 470 |
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DadsOld74
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Joined: October 01, 2013
Posts: 138
Location: Cody, Wyoming USA
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| Posted: Tue Jul 29, 2014 9:02 pm Post subject: |
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One thing that was strange when I installed mine was that the notch for the cap was 180 degrees different. Cylinder #1 was in the same place as it was on my DVDA, but I had to install the cap opposite the way and reinsert all the plug wires - in the same positions, but he opposite terminals.
Is there a chance your wires are running to the wrong plugs?
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--Brian ('74 standard bug)
"If one does not fail at times, then one has not challenged himself." - Ferdinand Porsche |
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mainexile
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Posts: 174
Location: Strafford, NH
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| Posted: Wed Jul 30, 2014 7:01 am Post subject: |
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| DadsOld74 wrote: |
Is there a chance your wires are running to the wrong plugs? |
I've triple-checked the wire positions on the cap, and everything is where it should be. Going out to the garage now to try again. Results later.
_________________
First, make sure it will stop; then make sure it will go; finally, make it pretty.
1974 Super Beetle Convertible, 1600 DP.
2016 Honda Accord Coupe (wife's)
2006 GMC Canyon Crew Cab (mine)
1978 Grady White Pacer 174 Mercruiser 470 |
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ashman40
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Location: North Florida, USA
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| Posted: Wed Jul 30, 2014 7:15 am Post subject: |
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| mainexile wrote: |
| DadsOld74 wrote: |
Is there a chance your wires are running to the wrong plugs? |
I've triple-checked the wire positions on the cap, and everything is where it should be. |
You wouldn't be the first person who said this only to find they were assuming someone else's description of where plug wires should go was correct.
Follow the steps detailed here on Speedy Jim's site.
http://www.speedyjim.net/htm/eng_strt.htm
The section marked "The Test" describes how to find TDC for #1 cylinder using valve movement and doesn't depend on knowing where #1 "should" be located.
When the crank pulley is lined up with the TDC or timing mark and the #1 cylinder valves are both closed... you are at/near TDC for #1 cylinder. Now look where your rotor is pointing. This is where #1 plug wire gets installed on the distributor cap.
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AshMan40
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'67 Beetle #1 {project car that never made it to the road  }
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DadsOld74
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| Posted: Wed Jul 30, 2014 7:32 am Post subject: |
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I don't know if you got the same instructions that I did, but I ordered my Pertronix from Aircooled.net. They always send an e.mail with great detailed directions.
One of the things they said was to keep my old distributor in place and rotate the engine so that the rotor is pointed to #1.
Then, remove it and put in the new distributor. Once it pops into place, the rotor may point in a different direction. That is your new #1 position. Put a notch or a mark there if preferred and get used to that being where #1 is. Then, make sure all wires are inserted accordingly.
For me, the postion was the same. But, that can't be assumed.
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--Brian ('74 standard bug)
"If one does not fail at times, then one has not challenged himself." - Ferdinand Porsche |
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mainexile
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Location: Strafford, NH
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| Posted: Wed Jul 30, 2014 10:41 am Post subject: Mea culpa |
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OK, so you all know about the axiom of requiring three "attaboys" to make up for one "dumbs"? Well, I need some attaboys. After I installed a new intake manifold, my plug wires to #s 1and 2 cylinders ran under the intake...and they were crossed behind the carb. So, when I plugged them in the new Pertronix rotor cap, they were reversed (yeah, I know, I didn't swap them one at a time, nor did I mark the wires).  As you can well imagine, the engine just didn't want to run that way. Switched them over, and it runs like a champ. I'm now gonna go find a hole to crawl into. Later.
Steve (the dumbass)
_________________
First, make sure it will stop; then make sure it will go; finally, make it pretty.
1974 Super Beetle Convertible, 1600 DP.
2016 Honda Accord Coupe (wife's)
2006 GMC Canyon Crew Cab (mine)
1978 Grady White Pacer 174 Mercruiser 470 |
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