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ElectricianMD
Samba Member
Joined: July 19, 2014
Posts: 11
Location: Eagle, NE, USA
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 Posted: Mon Jul 28, 2014 9:36 am Post subject: How much line bore is too much line bore? |
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Ok, so its been a long time since I've built a 1600, 15 years. Then I was a poor teenager, and it was a beater beetle (although probably the most loved car i've ever owned).
So some of you have seen my posts elsewhere, but I am restoring my Thing. I would like to get the car rolling down the road on its own. Hubert was another vehicle during my early VW years so kind of sentimental. I haven't gotten the birth certificate yet, but by some research I have noticed that my motor might be the original to the car. So I would love to keep the case at the very least for the numbers. But after tear down I cam across some disturbing numbers.
I haven't gotten a book yet, but I did print off a technical document from the net that states the line bore on the case are follows:
1 - 3
54.97-54.99mm
4
40-40.01mm
Well when I measured my bore to see what bearings I'm going to need I got these:
Now I must confess that the technical document I have printed out mentions frequently fuel injection, and we all know that mine is not. I believe the document could be for a later model type 2.
Any help would be appreciated. It just seems that for something to be 4.5mm over bored. Anyway, I hope I'm reading too far into this and have something wrong, any input would be great! Thank you in advance!
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Without a real car, I'm only half a man. - Jim Douglas - 'The Love Bug' 1968
http://mytype181.blogspot.com |
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esde
Samba Member
Joined: October 20, 2007
Posts: 5969
Location: central rust belt
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| Posted: Mon Jul 28, 2014 10:04 am Post subject: |
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| Look for the engine build worksheet under the stickies. One of the back pages has every size and oversize for bearings and case cuts listed. |
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Dale M.
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Joined: April 12, 2006
Posts: 20380
Location: Just a tiny bit west of Yosemite Valley
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| Posted: Mon Jul 28, 2014 10:08 am Post subject: |
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Edited!
Initially, my best guess would be case is not cut.. You have all option available for line bore...
#1-3 mains 2.5590-2.5595 (65.00-65.02) Max limit 2.5601 (65.03)
#4 MAIN 1.9685-1.9696 (50.00- 50.03) Max limit 1.9700 (50.04)
From Tom Wilsons book...
Dale
_________________
“Fear The Government That Wants To Take Your Guns" - Thomas Jefferson.
"Kellison Sand Piper Roadster" For Street & Show.
"Joe Pody Sandrover" Buggy with 2180 for Autocross (Sold)
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All suggestions and advice are purely my own opinion. You are free to ignore them if you wish ...
Last edited by Dale M. on Mon Jul 28, 2014 4:10 pm; edited 4 times in total |
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Dan Ruddock
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Joined: October 25, 2012
Posts: 3594
Location: Sarasota, in my adopted state of Florida
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| Posted: Mon Jul 28, 2014 11:04 am Post subject: |
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| Those net ###'s are wrong, 55mm is the cranks size. Dan |
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williamM
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Joined: August 07, 2008
Posts: 4333
Location: southwest Arizona
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| Posted: Mon Jul 28, 2014 11:57 am Post subject: |
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With out running a finger nail cross those lands, that block looks pretty go to me- what are the bore readings or the readings off the old bearings? Might be good to go.
To answer your question- I give-up at 80 over- and then as just a spare, or little old lady cheapy motor.
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some days I get up and just sit and think. Some days I just sit.
opinion untempered by fact is ignorance.
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ElectricianMD
Samba Member
Joined: July 19, 2014
Posts: 11
Location: Eagle, NE, USA
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| Posted: Mon Jul 28, 2014 4:07 pm Post subject: |
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| williamM wrote: |
| To answer your question- I give-up at 80 over- and then as just a spare, or little old lady cheapy motor. |
When you say 80 over, you mean thousanths I hope? This is the problem I've having digging around. When you look at bearings meant for line bored cases, they are in fractional-SAE, but mine is bored over in metric. I haven't done extensive searching but I'm still new like I said.
I work in maintenance at a pharma manufacturing facility. We have a full shop with everything tool and die, well mostly everything. With this I have a comfortable working knowelge of the equipment, and most of the verbiage. With only being an electrician this sets me back a little. With my line being bored over 10mm, and if the 80 over spoken earlier means .080", that would only be a little over 2mm.
The saddles where the bearings sit actually seem fairly decent, I'm actually quite impressed.
Again, any insight would be awesome! Thanks again for the input!
_________________
Without a real car, I'm only half a man. - Jim Douglas - 'The Love Bug' 1968
http://mytype181.blogspot.com |
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Dale M.
Samba Member
Joined: April 12, 2006
Posts: 20380
Location: Just a tiny bit west of Yosemite Valley
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| Posted: Mon Jul 28, 2014 4:12 pm Post subject: |
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| ElectricianMD wrote: |
| williamM wrote: |
| To answer your question- I give-up at 80 over- and then as just a spare, or little old lady cheapy motor. |
When you say 80 over, you mean thousanths I hope? This is the problem I've having digging around. When you look at bearings meant for line bored cases, they are in fractional-SAE, but mine is bored over in metric. I haven't done extensive searching but I'm still new like I said.
I work in maintenance at a pharma manufacturing facility. We have a full shop with everything tool and die, well mostly everything. With this I have a comfortable working knowelge of the equipment, and most of the verbiage. With only being an electrician this sets me back a little. With my line being bored over 10mm, and if the 80 over spoken earlier means .080", that would only be a little over 2mm.
The saddles where the bearings sit actually seem fairly decent, I'm actually quite impressed.
Again, any insight would be awesome! Thanks again for the input! |
Do not think yours has over bore.... You are using wrong numbers (unless you vernier dial is on second revolution then?)
What you are showing us may not be what it is.... Due to caliper dial being 2 revolutions per 10mm
Believe these to be proper number for virgin case...
CASE Bores
#1-3 mains 2.5590 - 2.5595 (65.00 - 65.02) Max limit 2.5601 (65.03)
#4 MAIN 1.9685 - 1.9696 (50.00 - 50.03) Max limit 1.9700 (50.04)
CRANKSHAFT Journals...
#1-3 main journal 2.1640 - 2.1484 (54.97-54.99)
#4 main journal 1.5739 - 1.5748 (39.98 -40.00)
Per Tom Wilson book...
Dale
_________________
“Fear The Government That Wants To Take Your Guns" - Thomas Jefferson.
"Kellison Sand Piper Roadster" For Street & Show.
"Joe Pody Sandrover" Buggy with 2180 for Autocross (Sold)
============================================================
All suggestions and advice are purely my own opinion. You are free to ignore them if you wish ...
Last edited by Dale M. on Mon Jul 28, 2014 4:30 pm; edited 2 times in total |
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ElectricianMD
Samba Member
Joined: July 19, 2014
Posts: 11
Location: Eagle, NE, USA
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| Posted: Mon Jul 28, 2014 4:22 pm Post subject: |
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| Dale M. wrote: |
| ElectricianMD wrote: |
| williamM wrote: |
| To answer your question- I give-up at 80 over- and then as just a spare, or little old lady cheapy motor. |
When you say 80 over, you mean thousanths I hope? This is the problem I've having digging around. When you look at bearings meant for line bored cases, they are in fractional-SAE, but mine is bored over in metric. I haven't done extensive searching but I'm still new like I said.
I work in maintenance at a pharma manufacturing facility. We have a full shop with everything tool and die, well mostly everything. With this I have a comfortable working knowelge of the equipment, and most of the verbiage. With only being an electrician this sets me back a little. With my line being bored over 10mm, and if the 80 over spoken earlier means .080", that would only be a little over 2mm.
The saddles where the bearings sit actually seem fairly decent, I'm actually quite impressed.
Again, any insight would be awesome! Thanks again for the input! |
Dont think yours has over bore.... you are using wrong numbers...
Believe these to be proper number for virgin case...
#1-3 mains 2.5590-2.5595 (65.00-65.02) Max limit 2.5601 (65.03)
#4 MAIN 1.9685-1.9696 (50.00- 50.03) Max limit 1.9700 (50.04)
Dale |
That would be awesome, so what do you think my issue is from? I just need to get a book already. For someone with novice knowledge, which book would all of you suggest? The Wilson book? When I did my Beetle motor 15 years ago I swear I used the Haynes Beetle book.
But by what you said there Dale, it would still seem that my saddles are a little larger than stock from wear, since I'm at 65.5 (almost) and 50.5.
I just need to get a book to get this going. I've still have to remove the gland nut yet. Don't have a flywheel lock or the 36mm socket.
If you check out my blogger post, you'll see that my daughter is very excited as well. This is going to be a learning experience for her too!
Thanks again to all of you for your input! I love the camaraderie this forum has!
_________________
Without a real car, I'm only half a man. - Jim Douglas - 'The Love Bug' 1968
http://mytype181.blogspot.com |
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Dale M.
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Joined: April 12, 2006
Posts: 20380
Location: Just a tiny bit west of Yosemite Valley
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| Posted: Mon Jul 28, 2014 4:35 pm Post subject: |
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Tom Wilsons book is pretty good ..A few thing a little off but not bad....
When getting 36mm socket get 3/4 inch drive and breaker bar.... Saves you from getting hurt and trying to return broken 1/2 drive tools...
Dale
_________________
“Fear The Government That Wants To Take Your Guns" - Thomas Jefferson.
"Kellison Sand Piper Roadster" For Street & Show.
"Joe Pody Sandrover" Buggy with 2180 for Autocross (Sold)
============================================================
All suggestions and advice are purely my own opinion. You are free to ignore them if you wish ... |
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PumaVW79
Samba Member
Joined: January 31, 2012
Posts: 487
Location: WGS84: 22.9083° S, 43.1964° W
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| Posted: Mon Jul 28, 2014 4:58 pm Post subject: |
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| Dale M. wrote: |
When getting 36mm socket get 3/4 inch drive and breaker bar.... Saves you from getting hurt and trying to return broken 1/2 drive tools... |
I couldn't agree more on that.
The pics are from my first attempt to remove the gland nut using a 36mm socket with 1/2 drive.
And it's a good quality tool... was 
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modok
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Joined: October 30, 2009
Posts: 26790
Location: Colorado Springs
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| Posted: Mon Jul 28, 2014 5:45 pm Post subject: |
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The line bore appears to be STD.
Don't see any problem so far. Bolt it together and measure with a bore gauge. |
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williamM
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Joined: August 07, 2008
Posts: 4333
Location: southwest Arizona
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| Posted: Tue Jul 29, 2014 6:43 am Post subject: |
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One of the reasons the pros get he "BIG BUCKS" is the 25 to 30 THOUSAND dollars invested in boxes and tools.
But- to do a vw motor you need maybe 6-7 high end tools - and a set of metric hand tools. You can even work your way round many of the things that require investment.
Example- your gland nut can be removed at the tire store - probably for a $5. tip-
But your end play and bore sizes require a quality internal gauge and calipers.
The list continues.-
_________________
some days I get up and just sit and think. Some days I just sit.
opinion untempered by fact is ignorance.
Don't step in any! |
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Dr OnHolliday
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Joined: May 11, 2012
Posts: 1215
Location: was Escondido now San Berdoo
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| Posted: Tue Jul 29, 2014 12:01 pm Post subject: |
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I have a 1/2" drive 36 mm socket. I use a 1/2 x 3/4 adapter and 3/4" drive breaker bar. I've torqued at least 300 ft-lbs with this with no sign of problems.
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1965 Type 1 sunroof Baja / about 70k miles on self-rebuilt '74 1600 and counting / SP heads and aftermarket valve keepers / non-doghouse shroud with external cooler and filter / 1.5 qt extended sump / Weber 32/36 DFAV progressive carb / 009 dist with Pertronix / 1.25 ratio rockers and ball adjusters / 1.5" stainless steel J-pipes and carbon steel baja exhaust |
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Dale M.
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Joined: April 12, 2006
Posts: 20380
Location: Just a tiny bit west of Yosemite Valley
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| Posted: Tue Jul 29, 2014 2:52 pm Post subject: |
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| Dr OnHolliday wrote: |
| I have a 1/2" drive 36 mm socket. I use a 1/2 x 3/4 adapter and 3/4" drive breaker bar. I've torqued at least 300 ft-lbs with this with no sign of problems. |
Yet....
BUT its usually the guy who whines I broke my 1/2 drive RATCHET......
And we have put gland nuts on so tight, we had to go to tire shop and use commercial 1 inch air impact used on BIG trucks, to get nut loose....
Dale
_________________
“Fear The Government That Wants To Take Your Guns" - Thomas Jefferson.
"Kellison Sand Piper Roadster" For Street & Show.
"Joe Pody Sandrover" Buggy with 2180 for Autocross (Sold)
============================================================
All suggestions and advice are purely my own opinion. You are free to ignore them if you wish ...
Last edited by Dale M. on Wed Jul 30, 2014 8:43 am; edited 1 time in total |
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ElectricianMD
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Joined: July 19, 2014
Posts: 11
Location: Eagle, NE, USA
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| Posted: Wed Jul 30, 2014 7:51 am Post subject: |
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Thanks for all the replies, I have coworkers with the big tools. I've also seen that gland nut removal tool that uses the gear on a locked flywheel. I can make just about all the other specialty tools, like the flywheel lock, oil filler nut tool, end play tool, and most of the unique tools.
Now on the subject of the saddle bore on my case. I did look up the stock dimensions, and it is stock. Its out of the clearance and will need bored as the dimensions call for no more than .04mm over stock, and I'm a whole .5 over. So I will have to have it bored so I don't ruin the new bearings. Before I do that I will use a bore gauge to see what it is when bolted together so I'm not relying on my old calipers.
Next is to determine the right kit. I would like a little more power as the Thing driving highway speeds is like trying to push a twinkie through water. I found it very similar to when I used to drive my Bus around. I'm thinking the 1641cc kits as I don't need to modify the case for those. But I want it to look stock, so no dual carbs.
The end goal, as of right now as money can change things, is to use this matching number motor for shows and build a bigger motor later for when I want to go camping or traveling. I'm willing to swap the motors when I do these things.
Thanks again for the input, sorry for the delayed reply as things got busy at home/work.
EDIT/UPDATE:
I just got the battery in my digital calipers, I took measurements. Even with the rod bearing on #1 being totally bashed, with a new grind of .5mm over (or under, however its said) I can still use my crank. The mains only need .25mm, case .25mm line bored. Whoo hooo!!! Now for that 1641cc kit....
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Without a real car, I'm only half a man. - Jim Douglas - 'The Love Bug' 1968
http://mytype181.blogspot.com |
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modok
Samba Member
Joined: October 30, 2009
Posts: 26790
Location: Colorado Springs
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| Posted: Wed Jul 30, 2014 4:27 pm Post subject: |
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| ElectricianMD wrote: |
| .04mm over stock, and I'm a whole .5 over...............................the battery in my digital calipers...............The mains only need .25mm, case .25mm line bored. |
That's all wrong. If the mains were .5 over then they'd be .5 over. Maybe they are .05 over. But you cannot measure that with calipers man, your killin me here. 
First line bore oversize is .5mm over |
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bugguy076
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Joined: December 11, 2007
Posts: 1068
Location: Dover, PA.
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| Posted: Thu Jul 31, 2014 6:00 am Post subject: |
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| If your not positive on what size bearings you need, take the case, crank and rods to a VW shop and have them help you. They will measure the parts and sell you the correct bearings. |
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ElectricianMD
Samba Member
Joined: July 19, 2014
Posts: 11
Location: Eagle, NE, USA
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| Posted: Thu Jul 31, 2014 7:27 am Post subject: |
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| bugguy076 wrote: |
| If your not positive on what size bearings you need, take the case, crank and rods to a VW shop and have them help you. They will measure the parts and sell you the correct bearings. |
That would be nice, we don't have a VW shop here in Lincoln, NE. But after all the reading, I know I'm .1 mm over the max for standard bearings on the case and crank journals. Got to get the crank and case machined. Some places it's .2mm, and the saddles are a little mushroomed.
Probably going to get the 1641 kit, need a little more power with not much more work. This is actually coming together a little better than I first thought when I seen the blown bearing.
Thanks again everyone for all the help!
_________________
Without a real car, I'm only half a man. - Jim Douglas - 'The Love Bug' 1968
http://mytype181.blogspot.com |
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