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Speedmster Samba Member
Joined: October 02, 2007 Posts: 49 Location: Louisville, KY, USA
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Posted: Wed Jul 30, 2014 5:59 pm Post subject: Right Rear Brake Noise 66' Beetle |
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1966 Beetle
We are getting a grinding / popping noise on the right rear brake. The noise only happens when lateral pressure is applied or at least that is when it's the most noticeable. Left hand turns it makes the most noise. We pulled the right rear wheel and drum. The drum doesn't show signs of rubbing on the housing. When free spinning the wheel ( both rear wheels in the air on jack stands ) the only thing we hear is some very lite brake shoe rub, but nothing like what we hear when we drive the car. With the drum off, still on jack stands, we hear no noise at all when we free spin the axle. At first we thought maybe a bearing, but the bearing is not making any noise. This noise is not when the brakes are applied. The noise is the same when using the brakes or just driving. Here are a few photos. Any thoughts?
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RareAir Samba Member
Joined: May 11, 2002 Posts: 14576 Location: 18 miles North of the border
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61SNRF Samba Member
Joined: March 29, 2009 Posts: 4657 Location: Whittier 90602
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Posted: Thu Jul 31, 2014 4:58 am Post subject: |
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The dry, rusty axle splines make me wonder if the drum could be slightly loose, and under load there is a little movement between the parts. What method are you using to remove and tighten the axle nut?
You want to apply a thin film of grease to the splines before you put the drum back on, that will help to keep moisture creeping in and rusting the parts together as well as making future removal easier. You want the treads lubed up too in order to obtain an accurate torque.
Not sure if it's causing noise, but that loose washer should inside the cover and not be able come out.
If it's OD is small enough that you can push it into the hole in the cover, it's probably a #7 washer and not the proper #13 oil slinger...
Also, for being so new, the brake parts look dry as a bone too. It's good practice and recommended that you use some Brake Grease on all the metal to metal contact points such as the ends of the spreader bar, E-brake cable end and lever pivot, adjuster wheels, brake shoe ends and backing plates where they ride. _________________ -Bruce
An ounce of prevention is worth a pound of cure. |
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carcrazed Samba Member
Joined: November 15, 2007 Posts: 957 Location: Ohio
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Posted: Thu Jul 31, 2014 5:24 am Post subject: |
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X2 on the axle nut. I was thinking the same thing that it might have been a little loose causing the the drum to move slightly and rub against the brake components. You might try putting the drum back on and tighten the heck out of the axle nut. Worth a try. _________________ 1965 Herbie Replica. 1776cc dual Kads.
1961 Beetle 33,000 Original Miles
"Just When you think you are getting ahead, you're always wrong." |
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Speedmster Samba Member
Joined: October 02, 2007 Posts: 49 Location: Louisville, KY, USA
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Posted: Fri Aug 01, 2014 6:07 am Post subject: |
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61SNRF wrote: |
What method are you using to remove and tighten the axle nut? |
Thank you for the reply.
I'm using a wrench to remove. I remove the cotter pin and break loose the slotted nut before lifting the car. When I put it back on I snug everything up and put the wheel on and lower to the ground and use a torque wrench to 217 ft. lbs. per the Bentley manual I have.
The #13 Oil Deflector is in place and can only be removed by taking the rear wheel bearing cover off. The washer you see has been added before my time and have no clue why. Almost looks like it was used as a spacer. Until see the photo below, I thought it was supposed to be on there.
The brake grease is a very good point. I will be adding that in short order. |
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Speedmster Samba Member
Joined: October 02, 2007 Posts: 49 Location: Louisville, KY, USA
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Posted: Fri Aug 01, 2014 6:11 am Post subject: |
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RareAir wrote: |
The lug bolts may be too long. If this is the case, when you tighten the lug bolts down, they protrude into the brake area and they might be hitting anything causing the noise |
I checked this out yesterday by putting the drum to the wheel off the car with the lug nuts and they didn't protrude very much. Plus, if the lug nuts were hitting anything I think I would see evidence on the end of the lug nuts and they haven't scraped anything. |
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Northof49 Samba Member
Joined: July 22, 2013 Posts: 1759 Location: Winnipeg, Manitoba, Canada
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Posted: Fri Aug 01, 2014 7:52 am Post subject: |
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Makes you wonder if it is the bearing. Perhaps it's moving around in the housing. I wonder if that is why the mystery spacer was added? Maybe the bearing is walking in and out on the housing.
Other possibility might be the inboard side of the axle. Perhaps problems with the fulcrums. _________________ 1958 Karmann Ghia owner |
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Speedmster Samba Member
Joined: October 02, 2007 Posts: 49 Location: Louisville, KY, USA
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Posted: Fri Aug 01, 2014 8:05 am Post subject: |
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Northof49 wrote: |
Makes you wonder if it is the bearing. Perhaps it's moving around in the housing. I wonder if that is why the mystery spacer was added? Maybe the bearing is walking in and out on the housing.
Other possibility might be the inboard side of the axle. Perhaps problems with the fulcrums. |
The only thought I have come up with was the spacer was added to move the drum outward for possible clearance reason. I only speculate that. I will try putting the drum on without that spacer this evening and see if that was the reason. I didn't know it wasn't apart of the OE setup. |
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Northof49 Samba Member
Joined: July 22, 2013 Posts: 1759 Location: Winnipeg, Manitoba, Canada
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Posted: Fri Aug 01, 2014 8:18 am Post subject: |
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That's about all the spacer can do, is move the drum in or out. It doesn't affect the clearance of the bearing in the pocket. Only the bearing seal housing can do that. But, I wonder if a previous owner didn't understand that.
If you have a bearing seal kit, it wouldn't hurt to pull the bearing cover off and see if you spot any anomalies. _________________ 1958 Karmann Ghia owner |
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Speedmster Samba Member
Joined: October 02, 2007 Posts: 49 Location: Louisville, KY, USA
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Posted: Fri Aug 01, 2014 8:51 am Post subject: |
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We removed the bearing seal housing and inspected the bearing and it looks good. That's how I know the #13 Oil Deflector washer is in place.
This car has been in the family for a long time. Dad had someone start the rebuild a long time ago, but we finished it. The drivetrain was completed by those folks. We have found several things that we would have done differently, but can't change the past, there's only the future. |
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Speedmster Samba Member
Joined: October 02, 2007 Posts: 49 Location: Louisville, KY, USA
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Posted: Sat Aug 02, 2014 8:01 am Post subject: |
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Northof49 wrote: |
Other possibility might be the inboard side of the axle. Perhaps problems with the fulcrums. |
Talk to me about fulcrum plates. Why do they fail and what are the signs of failure. |
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Northof49 Samba Member
Joined: July 22, 2013 Posts: 1759 Location: Winnipeg, Manitoba, Canada
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Posted: Sat Aug 02, 2014 8:26 am Post subject: |
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The fulcrum plates are located at the inboard end of each axle. They serve as both a drive surface for rotating the axles, and a pivot point for allowing the rotating axle to swing. As they wear, clearances open up, and sometimes they eventually crack. I would think a sign would be free play in the direction of rotating the axle forwards and rear wards. I am not sure how best to test them, but I am thinking if you jack the wheels off the ground, put it in gear and try to rotate the wheels by hand forwards and back, you could compare the two axles and get some sense of a problem. _________________ 1958 Karmann Ghia owner |
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Northof49 Samba Member
Joined: July 22, 2013 Posts: 1759 Location: Winnipeg, Manitoba, Canada
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Posted: Sat Aug 02, 2014 8:28 am Post subject: |
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Are you sure the drum is tight fitting on the axle splines? _________________ 1958 Karmann Ghia owner |
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Speedmster Samba Member
Joined: October 02, 2007 Posts: 49 Location: Louisville, KY, USA
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Posted: Sat Aug 02, 2014 11:34 am Post subject: |
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Northof49 wrote: |
Are you sure the drum is tight fitting on the axle splines? |
Yes, I am sure we are tight fitting to the axle splines. |
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svs Samba Member
Joined: August 10, 2010 Posts: 92 Location: Earth
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Posted: Sun Jul 03, 2016 4:43 pm Post subject: |
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Speedmster wrote: |
Northof49 wrote: |
Are you sure the drum is tight fitting on the axle splines? |
Yes, I am sure we are tight fitting to the axle splines. |
Two year old thread... Dead thread come back!
I'm having the same problem, mine being a 65 and a Baja bug with big tires, which I thought was my whump whump whump sound.
3000 miles ago--The transaxle was rebuilt super diff and the other beef ups and new axel bearings. Hard to think an axel bearing is bad.
I hear what I think is bearing noise and can feel something in the brake pedal at under 8 mph. Pulling off the drums to inspect everything,
Am curious as to where you ended up? The thread stopped just as I was hoping you found the issue...
Anybody with insights? |
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vwgirl1961a Samba Member
Joined: May 18, 2008 Posts: 466
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Posted: Tue Mar 14, 2017 3:18 pm Post subject: |
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svs wrote: |
Speedmster wrote: |
Northof49 wrote: |
Are you sure the drum is tight fitting on the axle splines? |
Yes, I am sure we are tight fitting to the axle splines. |
Two year old thread... Dead thread come back!
I'm having the same problem, mine being a 65 and a Baja bug with big tires, which I thought was my whump whump whump sound.
3000 miles ago--The transaxle was rebuilt super diff and the other beef ups and new axel bearings. Hard to think an axel bearing is bad.
I hear what I think is bearing noise and can feel something in the brake pedal at under 8 mph. Pulling off the drums to inspect everything,
Am curious as to where you ended up? The thread stopped just as I was hoping you found the issue...
Anybody with insights? |
A year after your post I am having the same problem with my stock 1965 Beetle :'( _________________ "Age doesn't really matter unless you are a cheese". |
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57BLITZ Samba Member
Joined: June 12, 2012 Posts: 2385 Location: DEEK - U.S.A.
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Posted: Tue Mar 14, 2017 3:45 pm Post subject: |
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vwgirl1961a wrote: |
I am having the same problem with my stock 1965 Beetle :'( |
Did ya pop the hubcap and check the axle nut?
It needs to be really, really, REALLY tight! _________________ Jesucristo es mi Seņor y Salvador! |
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vwgirl1961a Samba Member
Joined: May 18, 2008 Posts: 466
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Posted: Tue Mar 14, 2017 5:08 pm Post subject: |
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57BLITZ wrote: |
vwgirl1961a wrote: |
I am having the same problem with my stock 1965 Beetle :'( |
Did ya pop the hubcap and check the axle nut?
It needs to be really, really, REALLY tight! |
I did! I tried turning each nut (lug nut?) and they were tight. By hand anyway _________________ "Age doesn't really matter unless you are a cheese". |
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vwgirl1961a Samba Member
Joined: May 18, 2008 Posts: 466
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Posted: Tue Mar 14, 2017 5:10 pm Post subject: |
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vwgirl1961a wrote: |
57BLITZ wrote: |
vwgirl1961a wrote: |
I am having the same problem with my stock 1965 Beetle :'( |
Did ya pop the hubcap and check the axle nut?
It needs to be really, really, REALLY tight! |
I did! I tried turning each nut (lug nut?) and they were tight. By hand anyway |
There is a whooshing sound too. I found a sound clip online with the clicking noise:
Worn brake sound:
http://www.ratwell.com/mirror/Muir/wornbrakes.wav _________________ "Age doesn't really matter unless you are a cheese". |
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h~moto Samba Member
Joined: November 19, 2008 Posts: 316 Location: Northern Virginia
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Posted: Tue Mar 14, 2017 6:00 pm Post subject: Re: Right Rear Brake Noise 66' Beetle |
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Quote: |
I did! I tried turning each nut (lug nut?) and they were tight. By hand anyway |
He was talking about the axle nut, not the bolts that hold the wheel on. It's the big nut in the center of the brake drum (36mm). It gets torqued to 217 foot pounds (and yes, that is really, really, REALLY tight!). |
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