Kubel? 1946?

[rlucas]

Hi all,

Calling the all knowing people about the earliest beetle (and deratives). I saw a early chassis today that supposedly is a 1946 chassis. Unfortunately the tag with the chassisnumber that is welded normally close to the handbrake has been removed makingit hard to identify... Can anybody perhaps identify the chassis from these two pictures? Do the numbers near the body/suspension mounting make it possible to narrow it down? To my relatively untrained eye it did look like a 46 chassis, but looking at pictures of kubelchassis they seem quite similar. Judging from some of the kubel chassis they seem to have two drain holes in the front in the pan halves?

Many thanks in advance!

[virtanen]

Yes, an early beetle chassis, has also a heater cable tube which kübel doesn't have.
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Mika
Split beetle restoration panels
Oval beetle restoration panels
New projects

[rlucas]

Ah, yes, I see now in pictures yes... Thanks for that! Would there be any other numbers on a chassis like this? I know the later split chassis have framenumber punched in other location too. This chassis seems to have quite a bit of it's other metal still, so if there should be other numbers they might still be there. There are 46 papers with the chassis, so it seems to add up.

[virtanen]

Do you have remains of the weldings of the chassis number plate front of the gear stick? If yes, it seems to be older than May 45.
_________________
Mika
Split beetle restoration panels
Oval beetle restoration panels
New projects

[rlucas]

Unfortunately I didn't take a good picture of that area; but I am quite sure the remains of the welding remains were behind the gear shift, making it as you post may 1945. I cropped the area from the high resolution picture to have a better look also. Now, looking at this picture there seems to be some evidence of maybe welding in front of the shifter too? Would have to check in reall life, I only checked behind the shifter area...

[Mike Sal]

Wasn't there a battery box impression on the drivers side of the pan in the early vehicles?
Mike Sal

[virtanen]

[Martin Southwell]

I tend to agree with Mika that this chassis could be pre May 1945. The Cog logo is generally only found on wartime vehicles. I've come across one or two Kubels that are said to have the original or correct vintage, floorpans, but are missing this logo! i.e. Not a wartime chassis. This is the easiest way to check, although hard on the knees!

[usariemen]

[rlucas]

It is very interesting to read the comments about the chassis; to maybe add; although the floorplans were original they did have some traces of repairs here and there. in that way it would have been possible that it had a battery tray on the other side as well. I do think in general they are the original pans, but just heavily repaired. In any case, I am gratefull for all the input!

[iwlego]

Hi all,

ok, my five cents:

The heater outlet makes it a beetle (not a kuebel), that is pretty clear. If it would be a KdF (pre 45), it should have then a nut on top of the channel in front of the firewall for mounting the gas tank holder (barrel tank). This was only on KdF (type 60, 92 and 82e), not on Kuebels.

Cog wheels were common until 1949. In my 46, 47, 48 and 49 cars they are all over the place.

That means, it looks like a late 45 to mid 49 chassis.

I hope this helps.

Richard
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4-43 Type 60 KdF
4-43 Type 92 KdF
4-43 Type 82e KdF
5-43 Type 82e KdF
8-46 Standard
7-48 Standard
9-48 early Export
7-49 Standard
2-50 Hebmüller
4-50 Export
10-51 Export ragtop
10-50 Barndoor Minibus
5-52 Export
8-52 Barndoor Magirus fire truck
3-53 Barndoor Smoothgate Pickup
6-53 Barndoor Ambulance
9-54 Barndoor Deluxe Samba

[usariemen]

Some pics from the Gallery.

A Kübel

A 1947

My mid 1949 Export

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Master of my domain!

[virtanen]

Barrel tank discontinued already in 44, so there were KdF beetles with square tank.
_________________
Mika
Split beetle restoration panels
Oval beetle restoration panels
New projects

[Martin Southwell]

Another way of telling if a Kubel chassis or not, is the two captive nuts that Kubels have, welded onto chassis, in the area of the gearbox nose cone, which are the front anchor points for the rear skid/under belly protection pan.

[usariemen]

Wasn´t the Kübel out of the race with the heater cable tube present?
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Master of my domain!

[rlucas]

Have some more pictures; not sure if it makes it more clear or less...

Dashboard seems a bit odd; the glove boxes are the KDF type and seem welded to the dash. But then it has a non removable "blank" plate (KDF had removable plate right?) Then it seems some late 45's had these boxes still, but did these have a removable blank plate or not? If I check the pictures from the 51 of the Grundmann collection

http://www.vw38.de/home/index.php?option=com_joomg...n#category

Besides the removable blank plate it seems quite similar. Maybe it could be an early 46 then? I didn't find online any pictures of very early 46. Otherwise I am guessing it could be very late 45. But I cannot find anywhere this combination of KDF style glovebox and integrated blank plate....

[RichOakley]

[iwlego]

Ok, the body is definitely a post war. There were three different central ribs in 1946!

The first style was like KdF, the second was somewhat round, but with a kind of welding in the middle (my August 46 has this one and I know another 46 with the same) and the third one is the one of your car which went into 47 and later years.

The five ribs changed to 3 in late 47 I believe.

This narrows it down to a later 46 or 47 car.

The chassis is definitely not kuebel and not war time!

Mika is correct in that there have been KdFs with square tanks in 44, but the heater knob outlet and the missing water holes are clear indications of a not Kuebel chassis.

All in all, I would say it is a great car with a correct chassis and a pretty good body to restore from 46 or 47. Hard to find vintages ...!

Richard
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____________
4-43 Type 60 KdF
4-43 Type 92 KdF
4-43 Type 82e KdF
5-43 Type 82e KdF
8-46 Standard
7-48 Standard
9-48 early Export
7-49 Standard
2-50 Hebmüller
4-50 Export
10-51 Export ragtop
10-50 Barndoor Minibus
5-52 Export
8-52 Barndoor Magirus fire truck
3-53 Barndoor Smoothgate Pickup
6-53 Barndoor Ambulance
9-54 Barndoor Deluxe Samba

[usariemen]

Wow, there´s a whole car and not just a floor.
Isn´t there a tag still or a body number at the front of the body in the spare wheel area?
_________________
Master of my domain!

[RichOakley]

I still think those gloveboxes hold a clue to the dating the body more precisely. I'm sure the rounded shape ones were only used up until about March 1946. I've seen later '46s with the later style metal gloveboxes. Offset VW-logo in the dashboard is also '46-only from what I recall- by late '46 this logo was centralised.
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1947 Beetle
1956 RHD Karmann Cabrio
1956 RHD Beetle
1957 RHD Pitt-Moto Type 2 Camper
1959 RHD Beetle
1966 RHD Type 3 Fastback
1976 RHD Sun Beetle