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vermonter
Samba Member
Joined: August 13, 2010
Posts: 90
Location: Berlin, VT
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 Posted: Tue Aug 12, 2014 3:53 pm Post subject: Mopar and flathead gurus; opinions needed |
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Hey all,
I am looking at a possible new project and need some advice to chew on before possibly buying a big hunk of junk. I have always wanted an american rat rod, something big enough for a family but still dirty and eyebrow-raising. Up until now, I have been building a vw, and I know my heart will always be with aircooled euro's but my current vw project is a bit out of my hands at this point and if I don't sell it to someone who can take great care of it, it will end up as lawn art.
So right now I am looking at a 1951 Chrysler Windsor Coupe. At first I wasn't really in love with the styling of it, but the more I looked the car over, the more it dug it's way into my heart. The car has a ton of character, and best of all, it's unmolested. Everything about it is original, and no bondo or quick fixes (aside from some spray paint on the trunk and rear fender). The guy even has a ton of advertisements and brochures that go with it, along with nos glass, signals, chrome, and a bunch of other parts. Everything is in tact on the car that needs to be. There's some tearing on the fabric, it's dirty, and it was parked under a barn eve, so the pitter patter of the rain has worn through almost all of the original paint, so the entire car is rust, but no cancer. Even the underside is dry. Let me be clear for you southern folks; I live in the northeast. Any car that's older than 7 years and doesn't have cancer, is hard to come by.
So aside from the pure beauty of the vehicle, there's an issue with the engine. The owner claims he is 99% positive that the timing chain broke, and it was running when he bought it 3 years ago, but since died on the road. I know what 99% positive means. It means he really doesn't know and he is guessing based on what he read online. He did offer that he will buy the parts to get the car running again, and if I help him get it running, he will sell it to me for the original asking price. I don't mind getting my hands dirty, and if anything, it just gives me something to do so I told him I would help with the understanding that I still might not buy the car.
I guess what I am looking for is some advice, knowledge, need-to-know stuff about mopar flat 6's, ANYTHING. I know I could join a mopar forum, but I am already here and If I don't buy the car, then there's no point for being on a mopar site.
I know there has to be a handful of guys on this site that know these things, and might have something to share. Maybe I should stay away from these engines? maybe it's "the good" flat 6? maybe you know something I should be aware of as an owner of a flat 6? Any advice on owning a 6volt vehicle? Any aftermarket backing for hp gains?
Please help, I am torn. I love the car but I don't want my first real american rat rod to leave a bad taste in my mouth.
In return for your generosity, I give you low quality pictures of the car. Honestly these pictures do nothing to show how awesome the car is.
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busdaddy
Samba Member
Joined: February 12, 2004
Posts: 51149
Location: Surrey B.C. Canada, but thinking of Ukraine
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| Posted: Tue Aug 12, 2014 4:11 pm Post subject: |
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I wasn't aware it was possible to kill one of those Chrysler flathead sixes unless the oil consumption exceeded the fuel consumption and the compression got too low to maintain combustion, I've had a few in forklifts and aircraft tugs over the years and they have to be one of the most bulletproof and simple engines I've ever encountered, lots of low end torque too.
A broken cam chain wouldn't bend any valves, can't be too hard to fix.
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vermonter
Samba Member
Joined: August 13, 2010
Posts: 90
Location: Berlin, VT
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| Posted: Tue Aug 12, 2014 4:17 pm Post subject: |
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| busdaddy wrote: |
I wasn't aware it was possible to kill one of those Chrysler flathead sixes unless the oil consumption exceeded the fuel consumption and the compression got too low to maintain combustion, I've had a few in forklifts and aircraft tugs over the years and they have to be one of the most bulletproof and simple engines I've ever encountered, lots of low end torque too.
A broken cam chain wouldn't bend any valves, can't be too hard to fix. |
Thanks for the quick response!
It's good to now that it isn't an interference engine. I haven't been able to do much research on them due to a lack of free time, but from what I have learned by going to ratrod and otrod shows is that people don't usually keep them, and opt for the bigger v8 conversions. It's not often that I ever actually come across a flat6 still in the original vehicle.
I think I read that going above 3k rpm's is the main killer of these engines, for the reason you described. |
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modok
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Joined: October 30, 2009
Posts: 26788
Location: Colorado Springs
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| Posted: Tue Aug 12, 2014 5:38 pm Post subject: |
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| vermonter wrote: |
It's good to know that it isn't an interference engine. I haven't been able to do much research on them due to a lack of free time, but from what I have learned by going to ratrod and hotrod shows is that people don't usually keep them, and opt for the bigger v8 conversions. It's not often that I ever actually come across a flat6 still in the original vehicle.
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The only thing the valves can do is hit the head  But they can still bend valves if there is large amount of dirt/carbon/rust/ice accumulated above the valve.
It was one of the better engines at that time.
Main reason nobody is rebuilding them is because the vehicle is too slow to compete with modern traffic.
I've built one before, nothing unusual about it really. It has replaceable bearings, and they are available.
There were two different engines at that time, could be either, find out what the displacement is. 230, 251 or 265
the 230 is a different engine family |
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vermonter
Samba Member
Joined: August 13, 2010
Posts: 90
Location: Berlin, VT
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| Posted: Tue Aug 12, 2014 5:57 pm Post subject: |
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| I am almost certain it is the 251 from the research i have done. I only see that they offered the '51 Windsor with the 251, but I am only going off what I have seen on Mopar sites and wikipedia. |
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modok
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Joined: October 30, 2009
Posts: 26788
Location: Colorado Springs
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| Posted: Tue Aug 12, 2014 6:18 pm Post subject: |
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probably the 251, but the clevite catalog lists all three for windsor cars. Of course, it may not be the OE engine anyway.
Come to think of it the timing chain on those was HUGE, it looks like what you'd find in a transfer case  |
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drscope
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Joined: February 19, 2007
Posts: 15273
Location: Baltimore, Maryland USA
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| Posted: Tue Aug 12, 2014 6:46 pm Post subject: |
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The REAL issue is do YOU like the car? I’m not sure I would call this car with a flat head 6 a “hot rod”, but if you like the car and think it’s cool that’s all that really matters.
These are pretty simple engines. Flat heads are also referred to as “side valve” engines because the valves are beside the piston in the combustion chamber and move in the same direction as the piston. So there is no way for the valve to touch the piston.
If you are leaving the flat head in it’s stock form you need to understand you won’t be doing wheelies. Or burn outs. Or the 15, or 20 second quarter mile. So if those things are important to you then you will either need to do extensive engine upgrades, or replace the flat 6 with something else.
But this could be a really cool Saturday night cruiser with a little paint and maybe some fancier period wheels.
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vermonter
Samba Member
Joined: August 13, 2010
Posts: 90
Location: Berlin, VT
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| Posted: Tue Aug 12, 2014 7:48 pm Post subject: |
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| drscope wrote: |
The REAL issue is do YOU like the car? I’m not sure I would call this car with a flat head 6 a “hot rod”, but if you like the car and think it’s cool that’s all that really matters.
These are pretty simple engines. Flat heads are also referred to as “side valve” engines because the valves are beside the piston in the combustion chamber and move in the same direction as the piston. So there is no way for the valve to touch the piston.
If you are leaving the flat head in it’s stock form you need to understand you won’t be doing wheelies. Or burn outs. Or the 15, or 20 second quarter mile. So if those things are important to you then you will either need to do extensive engine upgrades, or replace the flat 6 with something else.
But this could be a really cool Saturday night cruiser with a little paint and maybe some fancier period wheels. |
A hotrod, it is not. I am in love with it's current condition. It's all original, and removing that spray paint will even out the look of the car nicely. My daily driver is a honda element, my other project is a type-3...speed is not of a concern to me. I'd rather just enjoy the put-put of that old original 6cyl. And yes, I LOVE this car. At first sight, I wanted to walk away, but the more I walked around it and talked to the owner, the more I fell in love with it. A business coupe wasn't my first choice for a rat rod, but sometimes it's good to think outside the box. If I end up with it, I will probably put some smoothies on it for rollers, maybe some dusty white walls, and try to lower it without having to cut or weld. I really dig this car and the fact that no one has messed with it in the past aside from that red spray paint. The guy is asking $1600 for it, and that's with a lot of extra parts and that price is IF we get it running. I have seen these sell for around $4k in a lot better condition, so I know it's not a high-demand vehicle, but it's still not a bad price....what do you thikn? |
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coad 
Samba Scapegoat
Joined: September 12, 2002
Posts: 7552
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| Posted: Tue Aug 12, 2014 8:50 pm Post subject: |
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| busdaddy wrote: |
I wasn't aware it was possible to kill one of those Chrysler flathead sixes unless the oil consumption exceeded the fuel consumption and the compression got too low to maintain combustion, I've had a few in forklifts and aircraft tugs over the years and they have to be one of the most bulletproof and simple engines I've ever encountered, lots of low end torque too.
A broken cam chain wouldn't bend any valves, can't be too hard to fix. |
Not to mention the marine version, the Chrysler Crown. Nothing's harder duty than pushing a boat hull through the water, and those Chrysler Crowns would run full throttle all day long. Best boat engine ever made.
I think the engine will be the least of your worries if you buy that car. |
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vermonter
Samba Member
Joined: August 13, 2010
Posts: 90
Location: Berlin, VT
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| Posted: Tue Aug 12, 2014 9:43 pm Post subject: |
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| coad wrote: |
| busdaddy wrote: |
I wasn't aware it was possible to kill one of those Chrysler flathead sixes unless the oil consumption exceeded the fuel consumption and the compression got too low to maintain combustion, I've had a few in forklifts and aircraft tugs over the years and they have to be one of the most bulletproof and simple engines I've ever encountered, lots of low end torque too.
A broken cam chain wouldn't bend any valves, can't be too hard to fix. |
Not to mention the marine version, the Chrysler Crown. Nothing's harder duty than pushing a boat hull through the water, and those Chrysler Crowns would run full throttle all day long. Best boat engine ever made.
I think the engine will be the least of your worries if you buy that car. |
I'm diggin' the positive reinforcement! |
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drscope
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Joined: February 19, 2007
Posts: 15273
Location: Baltimore, Maryland USA
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| Posted: Wed Aug 13, 2014 7:42 am Post subject: |
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My 55 beetle is mostly original. I have a set of Mangle chrome Porsche wheels on it and I’ve made a few other changes like lug studs. But the rest of the car is original paint and surface rust others would refer to as Patina. I call it neglect and rust.
Inside all the carpets are and head liner are gone because they rotted away and most of the rubber seals are stone hard.
I don’t wash the car because of the sun burned missing paint in many places and the fact that I try not to allow it to get wet. We do clean the windows sometimes so we can see out. The chrome on the bumpers is a rusty mess.
The car runs GREAT and rides well. It’s stock height – high in the front with a little positive camber in the rear. Mechanically it’s doing fine, but cosmetically it’s lacking.
We take it to the local Cruise In a couple times a year and I’m always amazed at the crowd that gathers. Even if there are 5 or so other nice radical custom bugs there, this car always steals the show.
I think the reason is that it’s so much different from the other 400 cars that show up. It’s not a Chevy like the other 300 Camaros or Novas that show up. It’s different. Unmolested, unmodified.
I think you if you do this car the way you have described, you will experience the same sort of reactions. People get tired of all the custom cars that look alike, or came out of a catalog. But a running, driving survivor is something different.
And when it comes right down to it, the very spirit of hot rodding was to be different.
I say go for it and enjoy the heck out of the beauty of a different time gone by.
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Mike Fisher
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Joined: January 30, 2006
Posts: 17970
Location: Eugene, OR
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| Posted: Wed Aug 13, 2014 9:47 am Post subject: |
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Buy an old Hemi to put in with the huge chrome or aluminum valve covers and then you'll be proud of it! 
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vermonter
Samba Member
Joined: August 13, 2010
Posts: 90
Location: Berlin, VT
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| Posted: Wed Aug 13, 2014 1:48 pm Post subject: |
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| drscope wrote: |
My 55 beetle is mostly original. I have a set of Mangle chrome Porsche wheels on it and I’ve made a few other changes like lug studs. But the rest of the car is original paint and surface rust others would refer to as Patina. I call it neglect and rust.
Inside all the carpets are and head liner are gone because they rotted away and most of the rubber seals are stone hard.
I don’t wash the car because of the sun burned missing paint in many places and the fact that I try not to allow it to get wet. We do clean the windows sometimes so we can see out. The chrome on the bumpers is a rusty mess.
The car runs GREAT and rides well. It’s stock height – high in the front with a little positive camber in the rear. Mechanically it’s doing fine, but cosmetically it’s lacking.
We take it to the local Cruise In a couple times a year and I’m always amazed at the crowd that gathers. Even if there are 5 or so other nice radical custom bugs there, this car always steals the show.
I think the reason is that it’s so much different from the other 400 cars that show up. It’s not a Chevy like the other 300 Camaros or Novas that show up. It’s different. Unmolested, unmodified.
I think you if you do this car the way you have described, you will experience the same sort of reactions. People get tired of all the custom cars that look alike, or came out of a catalog. But a running, driving survivor is something different.
And when it comes right down to it, the very spirit of hot rodding was to be different.
I say go for it and enjoy the heck out of the beauty of a different time gone by. |
Totally. I agree, I think this car is best suited for a time capsule build. Maybe only do mods with NOS aftermarket pieces relevant to the generation. MAYBE.
Thank you |
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vermonter
Samba Member
Joined: August 13, 2010
Posts: 90
Location: Berlin, VT
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| Posted: Wed Aug 13, 2014 1:55 pm Post subject: |
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| Mike Fisher wrote: |
| Buy an old Hemi to put in with the huge chrome or aluminum valve covers and then you'll be proud of it! |
Maybe some day. I think I like the idea of the flat 6, at least for now. |
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drscope
Samba Member
Joined: February 19, 2007
Posts: 15273
Location: Baltimore, Maryland USA
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| Posted: Wed Aug 13, 2014 3:47 pm Post subject: |
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Stick with the flat head six!
Here's a shot of my buddies flat head six Hudson:
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vermonter
Samba Member
Joined: August 13, 2010
Posts: 90
Location: Berlin, VT
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| Posted: Wed Aug 13, 2014 3:56 pm Post subject: |
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| drscope wrote: |
Stick with the flat head six!
Here's a shot of my buddies flat head six Hudson:
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Thanks alot.... now I have to spend the rest of my night researching turbo stuff... |
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iowegian
Samba Curmudgeon
Joined: February 16, 2005
Posts: 9830
Location: Somewhere between Dubuque and Keokuk
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| Posted: Wed Aug 13, 2014 5:20 pm Post subject: |
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Don't forget the vintage sound of a split exhaust manifold with dual glass-packs.  |
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banditwolf
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Joined: April 03, 2011
Posts: 617
Location: oHIo
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| Posted: Wed Aug 13, 2014 5:31 pm Post subject: |
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I do like the look of it as it. I think any safety upgrades are fine on any car. (brakes, seat belts, etc)
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coad
Samba Scapegoat
Joined: September 12, 2002
Posts: 7552
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| Posted: Wed Aug 13, 2014 5:59 pm Post subject: |
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| vermonter wrote: |
Thanks alot.... now I have to spend the rest of my night researching turbo stuff... |
Forget turbos. For a flathead 6 the Old School way was a supercharger. Google Graham Supercharger from the 1930's.
There was a ton of hot rod stuff for this engine, but the trouble is the guys who knew about them are probably dead or in the nursing home, and even if they're alive, they haven't thought about flat 6's for 50 years.
You're going to have to sit down with about 10 years worth of 40's and 50's hot rod magazines and just start reading the articles and (especially) the ads. I think it sounds like fun, and you'll get one Hell of an education doing it. Of course.the good news is that once you're done if the stuff like the aluminum heads is still out there you can probably steal it, because no one else will know what they're looking at. |
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drscope
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Joined: February 19, 2007
Posts: 15273
Location: Baltimore, Maryland USA
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| Posted: Wed Aug 13, 2014 7:59 pm Post subject: |
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| vermonter wrote: |
Thanks alot.... now I have to spend the rest of my night researching turbo stuff... |
When you're ready let me know and I'll give you Dave's contact information. He is one of the smartest guys on the planet when it comes to turbo stuff.
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