| Author |
Message |
Gizmoman
Samba Member
Joined: September 10, 2011
Posts: 1554
Location: Nevada
|
 Posted: Fri Aug 15, 2014 5:13 am Post subject: 1st gear synchromesh (changed to AAP VS DK in an AAZ) |
 |
|
In a DK 4 speed, does 1st gear have a synchro?
I can't seem to downshift into 1st unless the van's not moving. Sometimes it goes in but usually complains a bit.
_________________
82 Vanagon Westy - AAZ 1.9 TD, HE200 Holset, WAIC, 27.75 dia tires, Electric power steering, 5-speed AAP w/.078 5th
Oversize spare carrier - stock location (no longer for sale).
Last edited by Gizmoman on Tue Aug 19, 2014 6:47 pm; edited 1 time in total |
|
| Back to top |
|
 |
gears
Samba Member
Joined: October 28, 2002
Posts: 4391
Location: Tamarack, Bend, Kailua
|
| Posted: Fri Aug 15, 2014 7:27 am Post subject: |
|
|
Yes, of course. The last VW transaxle with non-synchro 1st was built in 1959.
_________________
aka Pablo, Geary
9.36 @ 146 in '86 Hot & Sticky
'90 Syncro Westy SVX
'87 Syncro GL 2.5
https://guardtransaxle.com |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Gizmoman
Samba Member
Joined: September 10, 2011
Posts: 1554
Location: Nevada
|
| Posted: Fri Aug 15, 2014 4:34 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| gears wrote: |
| Yes, of course. The last VW transaxle with non-synchro 1st was built in 1959. |
Thanks, I guess I have an issue then, mine has never worked. I just figured it didn't have one. Is this a common issue for the air cooled transmissions?
As I recall my 'ol 72 was a bugger to get into 1st as well unless I wasn't moving.
_________________
82 Vanagon Westy - AAZ 1.9 TD, HE200 Holset, WAIC, 27.75 dia tires, Electric power steering, 5-speed AAP w/.078 5th
Oversize spare carrier - stock location (no longer for sale). |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
AndyBees
Samba Member
Joined: January 31, 2008
Posts: 2331
Location: Southeast Kentucky
|
| Posted: Fri Aug 15, 2014 7:08 pm Post subject: |
|
|
My '83 (last of the air-cooled engines) has the DK tranny. Although it is semi-retired, the odometer has 220k miles on.... no shifting issues and the gear oil has never been changed.
My '84 TDI Vanagon also has a DK tranny from an '80 model. I rebuilt it myself with parts from Weddle. I've put just over 30k miles on the rebuild. It shifts perfect... changed the oil in it prior to a 10k mile trip to Alaska and return...got back on 8/10/14.
The DK tranny is fairly easy to disassemble for rebuilding. Everything you need, Weddle has it!
_________________
'84 Vanagon Tin-top, ALH TDI. 1989 Tin-top
1983 Air-cool, 225k miles, 180k miles mine. Seven trips to Alaska from 1986 thru 2003. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Gizmoman
Samba Member
Joined: September 10, 2011
Posts: 1554
Location: Nevada
|
| Posted: Fri Aug 15, 2014 7:55 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| AndyBees wrote: |
My '83 (last of the air-cooled engines) has the DK tranny. Although it is semi-retired, the odometer has 220k miles on.... no shifting issues and the gear oil has never been changed.
The DK tranny is fairly easy to disassemble for rebuilding. Everything you need, Weddle has it! |
I just changed mine - no difference.
Thanks for the tip on the rebuild. We're doing a trip over three weeks in early September after working on it for way too long. Hopefully the tranny will hold up till we're back home. Then its out and off to Rancho. I'd love to do it myself but I need to get back to the house renovation.
I never tried double clutching it maybe that's the trick. If you know any others, please chime in.
_________________
82 Vanagon Westy - AAZ 1.9 TD, HE200 Holset, WAIC, 27.75 dia tires, Electric power steering, 5-speed AAP w/.078 5th
Oversize spare carrier - stock location (no longer for sale). |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Gnarlodious 
Samba Member
Joined: September 28, 2013
Posts: 2323
Location: Adobe Jungle USA
|
| Posted: Fri Aug 15, 2014 8:52 pm Post subject: |
|
|
My 5-speed is not made for downshifting into 1st. I can doubleclutch it in if its really critical, but normally have to come to a full stop. In all other respects there is nothing wrong with my transmission.
_________________
Vanagon ’83 diesel AAZ w/Giles injection, 5spd 4.57R&P+TBD and a '78 diesel Rabbit |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Gizmoman
Samba Member
Joined: September 10, 2011
Posts: 1554
Location: Nevada
|
| Posted: Fri Aug 15, 2014 9:37 pm Post subject: |
|
|
Went to the Weddle site to drool.
My AAZ has a mild head port, a Giles IP and a Holset HE211 turbo with a water to air IC. Exhaust is 2-1/2" straight through. Tires are 215 70R16.
Current transmission is a stock DK.
If someone with some knowledge of gearing options available, could provide suggestions regarding ideal gearing, that would be very helpful.
_________________
82 Vanagon Westy - AAZ 1.9 TD, HE200 Holset, WAIC, 27.75 dia tires, Electric power steering, 5-speed AAP w/.078 5th
Oversize spare carrier - stock location (no longer for sale). |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Gizmoman
Samba Member
Joined: September 10, 2011
Posts: 1554
Location: Nevada
|
| Posted: Sun Aug 17, 2014 7:41 am Post subject: |
|
|
Possibly should start a new thread but this is somewhat of a continuation as I may need to either rebuild or replace my DK 4 speed soon. 1st gear synchro is not working and it get's whiney after it warms up.
Here is a spreadsheet showing what I have now, and a few possible options (2 from GoWe$ty).
A few things I'd like to point out: The numbers are very close to my actual experience with the DK. Speeds are from GPS readings and tach is digital.
Ideally, 70 MPH at 3K would be the goal, but it does't seem likely with any transmission choice. I can live with that. What I want though is dependability, no transmission noise, synchromesh in all gears and smooth shifting. I have looked into the Subarugears mod but it seems like a ton of work and/or money.
An AAP appears to meet my needs well:
4th gear would put me a bit over 55 mph at 3K which would be great for those long 6% grades
1st is low enough to easily start the brick up a hill from a stop, at least much better than the DK. Too bad they are nearly unobtainium.
Just thought others my find this data interesting. All advice welcome.
_________________
82 Vanagon Westy - AAZ 1.9 TD, HE200 Holset, WAIC, 27.75 dia tires, Electric power steering, 5-speed AAP w/.078 5th
Oversize spare carrier - stock location (no longer for sale). |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
jerrydog411
Samba Member
Joined: September 28, 2009
Posts: 388
Location: North Vancouver, BC
|
| Posted: Sun Aug 17, 2014 8:08 am Post subject: |
|
|
Gizmo ... what brand / model are your tires?
I think your circumference figure is low by at least an inch.
I run 205/65R16 Nokians on my 2wd and they are, per manufacturer, 26.5" circumference and yours are considerably larger ... 1,4cm (bit over .5") from extra cm of tread width x .70 plus your taller aspect ratio.
best imperical / comparative numbers are manufacturers rolling data ... rpm (revs per mile)
LMK and I'll find it.
John |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
crazyvwvanman
Samba Member
Joined: January 28, 2008
Posts: 9936
Location: Orbiting San Diego
|
| Posted: Sun Aug 17, 2014 8:54 am Post subject: |
|
|
Use the manufacturers rev/mile. example: 745
5280 feet per mile, divided by 745 rev = 7.087 feet per rev
7.087 feet x 12 inches per foot = 84.04 inches per rev
84.04 is the rolling circumference in inches
Mark
| jerrydog411 wrote: |
Gizmo ... what brand / model are your tires?
I think your circumference figure is low by at least an inch......
best imperical / comparative numbers are manufacturers rolling data ... rpm (revs per mile)
LMK and I'll find it.
John |
|
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Gizmoman
Samba Member
Joined: September 10, 2011
Posts: 1554
Location: Nevada
|
| Posted: Sun Aug 17, 2014 9:46 am Post subject: |
|
|
Tires are KUMHO Solus, Load 99T.
Air pressure is 45 psi
Measuring the back tire on level ground, radius from ground to center of wheel is 13.375". The rim has an emblem which makes it very easy to locate center.
"Running" circumference = (13.375 X 2) X 3.14159265359 = 84.0376034835325" (which is essentially what I have entered in the spreadsheet)
To obtain feet from above: 84.0376034835325"/12 = 7.0031'
Feet in a mile = 5280,
5280/7.0031= 753.95 revs/mile
I'm sure the radius grows slightly as the tire is spinning, but not enough to change the numbers much.
The numbers on the sheet closely match what I am seeing via the digital tach and GPS.
_________________
82 Vanagon Westy - AAZ 1.9 TD, HE200 Holset, WAIC, 27.75 dia tires, Electric power steering, 5-speed AAP w/.078 5th
Oversize spare carrier - stock location (no longer for sale). |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
crazyvwvanman
Samba Member
Joined: January 28, 2008
Posts: 9936
Location: Orbiting San Diego
|
| Posted: Sun Aug 17, 2014 10:30 am Post subject: |
|
|
I'm curious how many trips you have taken with your current setup after fixing the constricted exhaust? I agree that that diameter tire on a DK makes 1st to tall for some starts. I drove that setup for many years on several vans with AAZ engines though mine were in stock tune. I also found 4th slightly too tall for mild Interstate grades, especially with any headwind. I would have hoped that your performance upgrades would have solved that. I solved both issues with a wbx 4 speed, matched to my 750 rev/mile tires. Of course that lowered my cruising speed by about 4 mph but I found it more enjoyable to drive since I could hold 4th a lot more often.
I have a few 5 speeds laying around, including an AAP I had been planning to use for a TDI. The others are DX and I expected to switch one of those to a 4.86 as an experiment. Paid tranny work is a bit costly for much experimentation though so it might not happen.
Mark
| Gizmoman wrote: |
Possibly should start a new thread but this is somewhat of a continuation as I may need to either rebuild or replace my DK 4 speed soon. ........
Ideally, 70 MPH at 3K would be the goal, but it does't seem likely with any transmission choice. I can live with that. What I want though is dependability, no transmission noise, synchromesh in all gears and smooth shifting. I have looked into the Subarugears mod but it seems like a ton of work and/or money.
An AAP appears to meet my needs well:
4th gear would put me a bit over 55 mph at 3K which would be great for those long 6% grades
1st is low enough to easily start the brick up a hill from a stop, at least much better than the DK. Too bad they are nearly unobtainium.
Just thought others my find this data interesting. All advice welcome. |
|
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Ahwahnee
Samba Member
Joined: June 05, 2010
Posts: 9810
Location: Mt Lemmon, AZ
|
| Posted: Sun Aug 17, 2014 10:44 am Post subject: |
|
|
| Gizmoman wrote: |
| ...I never tried double clutching it maybe that's the trick. If you know any others, please chime in. |
My 'other car' for the past 40 years has a non-synchro first and I never perceived it as a big problem. There is a sweet spot before the car stops moving where it can be slipped into first but otherwise, a dead stop is required.
If it doesn't want to go cleanly into first after a dead stop (a common issue on some cars w/o 1st synchro) it can help to pop it into 2nd then into first to stop the rotation of the input (first motion) shaft. But that move may or may not be relevant on a VW transaxle. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Gizmoman
Samba Member
Joined: September 10, 2011
Posts: 1554
Location: Nevada
|
| Posted: Sun Aug 17, 2014 11:45 am Post subject: |
|
|
| crazyvwvanman wrote: |
I'm curious how many trips you have taken with your current setup after fixing the constricted exhaust? I agree that that diameter tire on a DK makes 1st to tall for some starts. I drove that setup for many years on several vans with AAZ engines though mine were in stock tune. I also found 4th slightly too tall for mild Interstate grades, especially with any headwind. I would have hoped that your performance upgrades would have solved that. I solved both issues with a wbx 4 speed, matched to my 750 rev/mile tires. Of course that lowered my cruising speed by about 4 mph but I found it more enjoyable to drive since I could hold 4th a lot more often.
I have a few 5 speeds laying around, including an AAP I had been planning to use for a TDI. The others are DX and I expected to switch one of those to a 4.86 as an experiment. Paid tranny work is a bit costly for much experimentation though so it might not happen.
Mark
|
Mark, The new Holset turbo doesn't spool quite as quick as the K14 did, but very close. I am getting used to just increasing the RPM's a bit more when I start from a stop. As it is, the engine is designed to make power when it's boosed. No boost = no power. I haven't taken any long trips with it yet but have been driving it daily to work to shake it out. The route to work is about 23 freeway miles each way with about three moderate (3-4%) grades each way. I can hold 65 MPH on all those grades. If I try to hold 70 MPH, my EGT's climb into the 1200F zone. I can do 70 on the flat easily. EGT's are running about 900 and boost is around 7-8 psi.
I'm very satisfied with the engine power (especially after opening up the exhaust) but I really feel like splitting it up between 5 gears instead of 4 would provide a better use of the narrow power band.
If parting with the AAP is a consideration, let me know.
As for the non-working synchro in 1st, I can live with it. It's just that because of the tall tires, 1st becomes a gear to use around a slow corner, and if traffic is behind me, stopping is not an option. It's also a PITA in stop & go traffic - which is quite common in my neck of the woods.
_________________
82 Vanagon Westy - AAZ 1.9 TD, HE200 Holset, WAIC, 27.75 dia tires, Electric power steering, 5-speed AAP w/.078 5th
Oversize spare carrier - stock location (no longer for sale). |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
dhaavers
Samba Member
Joined: March 19, 2010
Posts: 7757
Location: NE MN (tinyurl.com/dhaaverslocation)
|
| Posted: Sun Aug 17, 2014 1:16 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| Ahwahnee wrote: |
| ...into 2nd then into first to stop the rotation of the input... |
This has been my MO since I got our van - it was always a little bit "grindy" going into first
after a stop. Actually, I only have to move it TOWARDS 2nd - like just out of neutral -
not seated fully into gear. With this technique, first comes smooth as butter every time.
Having said that, I haven't come up with a reliable way to shift down into first while moving.
I've tried double clutching, the 2nd-1st slide, but come up with nothing to smooth it out...
Ouch.
_________________
86 White Wolfsburg Westy Weekender
"The WonderVan"
<EDITED TO PROTECT INNOCENT PIXELS> |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Gizmoman
Samba Member
Joined: September 10, 2011
Posts: 1554
Location: Nevada
|
| Posted: Sun Aug 17, 2014 1:51 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| dhaavers wrote: |
| Ahwahnee wrote: |
| ...into 2nd then into first to stop the rotation of the input... |
This has been my MO since I got our van - it was always a little bit "grindy" going into first
after a stop. Actually, I only have to move it TOWARDS 2nd - like just out of neutral -
not seated fully into gear. With this technique, first comes smooth as butter every time.
Having said that, I haven't come up with a reliable way to shift down into first while moving.
I've tried double clutching, the 2nd-1st slide, but come up with nothing to smooth it out...
Ouch. |
I hear ya - "ouch". I've been driving this for quite a while with the issue though, and when I pulled the magnetic plug, it looked terrible but ended up being nano metal bits covered in thick oil - no slivers or chunks at all
_________________
82 Vanagon Westy - AAZ 1.9 TD, HE200 Holset, WAIC, 27.75 dia tires, Electric power steering, 5-speed AAP w/.078 5th
Oversize spare carrier - stock location (no longer for sale). |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Jon_slider
Samba Member
Joined: April 11, 2007
Posts: 5091
Location: Santa Cruz, Crowdifornia
|
| Posted: Sun Aug 17, 2014 7:54 pm Post subject: |
|
|
> Tires are 215 70R16… Ideally, 70 MPH at 3K would be the goal
with your tire, and your 4.57 R&P, a 1.14 3rd, with a .77 4th gives 70mph@3000rpm
no experience with AAZ, listen to crazyvwvanman
_________________
My Soapboxes: Inflation; Handling; Gearing; Decoupling; Swepco |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Gizmoman
Samba Member
Joined: September 10, 2011
Posts: 1554
Location: Nevada
|
| Posted: Sun Aug 17, 2014 9:34 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| Jon_slider wrote: |
> Tires are 215 70R16… Ideally, 70 MPH at 3K would be the goal
with your tire, and your 4.57 R&P, a 1.14 3rd, with a .77 4th gives 70mph@3000rpm
no experience with AAZ, listen to crazyvwvanman |
I am listening, and highly value Mark' perspectives.
I considered a .77 fourth in the DK but after busting into it, I'd still have a 1st that's too tall. Besides, the .77 fourth may be an out of reach gear on any thing but the flat (or downhill). While 3k at 70 would be sweet, I'm beginning to realize it's too much to ask of a 1.9 anything. (actually, with my tires it would be closer to 3100)
The AAP with my tire size puts me at 3300 RPM at 70. The jump from 4th to 5th is only 14 mph.
The DK with a .77 4th requires a jump from 43 MPH to 70 - IMO, way too much swing for this engine.
_________________
82 Vanagon Westy - AAZ 1.9 TD, HE200 Holset, WAIC, 27.75 dia tires, Electric power steering, 5-speed AAP w/.078 5th
Oversize spare carrier - stock location (no longer for sale). |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
jerrydog411
Samba Member
Joined: September 28, 2009
Posts: 388
Location: North Vancouver, BC
|
| Posted: Sun Aug 17, 2014 9:46 pm Post subject: |
|
|
sorry Gizmo ... that is not the running circumference ... that is what your calculation may be; does not relate to the real world of the tire specs ...
Currently Selected Tire Size(s)
Size
Service Description
Load Range UTQG Max
Load Max.
Inflation
Press. Tread
Depth Tire
Weight Rim
Width
Range Meas.
Rim
Width Sect.
Width Tread
Width Overall
Diam. Revs
Per
Mile Country
of Origin*
P215/70R16
99T SL 680 A B 1709 lbs.
44 psi
11/32"
26 lbs. 5.5-7"
6.5"
8.7"
NA
27.8"
750
KR , CN
from Tirerack.com: diameter 27.8" 750 revs/mile |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Jon_slider
Samba Member
Joined: April 11, 2007
Posts: 5091
Location: Santa Cruz, Crowdifornia
|
| Posted: Sun Aug 17, 2014 9:47 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| Gizmoman wrote: |
| a jump from 43 MPH to 70 |
48 to 72 actually, but whos counting?
since 1st is too tall you could go to a 4.86 Ring and Pinion, but
the better move would be to go to a smaller tire, and go 65 instead of 70.
In my opinion, Big tires put bigger loads on the tranny, and reduce tranny life. I would say the same about going 70mph.
_________________
My Soapboxes: Inflation; Handling; Gearing; Decoupling; Swepco |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
|
